Quantcast

Springer Torture Test

Discussion in 'Handguns: Autoloaders' started by 1911Tuner, May 18, 2004.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. 1911Tuner

    1911Tuner Moderator Emeritus

    Joined:
    May 22, 2003
    Messages:
    18,550
    Location:
    Lexington,North Carolina...or thereabouts
    For this phase, I sifted a volume of our native red clay through a screen to remove the bigger chunks, and finally through a flour sifter to get the fine stuff separated for the test. I wound up with a powder that's about the consistency of talc and will sift into the smallest opening, given a little time. I wanted to approximate the fine grit that our troops are dealing with in the Middle East. The stuff that's bringing the Berettas to a stop.

    Gathering up another 200 rounds of hardball-equivalent reloads, four holsters, a 5-gallon water bucket, water, a compressed air tank, and another 5-gallon bucketful of "Red Death", I struck out for the range early this A.M. I used 3 magazines for the test. The OEM magazine and two of the Metalforms that I use for range duty, all equipped with Wolff 11-pound springs. All magazines were standard 7-rounders with dimpled followers.

    The holsters were:

    A Gould and Goodrich B 712-45 thumb-break belt rig (Leather)
    A Don Bradley's Saddle Shop M 11 with safety strap (Leather)
    A Bianchi UM-84 nylon holster that is current issue for our Armed Forces
    A Vietnam-era GI flap holster....One of the "hard" holsters, as opposed to
    the earlier soft ones.

    The spare magazines were put into a canvas WW2-era flapped mag pouch. The pistol had a minimal amount of lubrication to prevent making oily mud.

    The pistol was detail-stripped, and received a quickie cleaning after each test in order to simulate maintenence in the field. (Rinsed with clean water,
    wiped quickly and reassembled as fast as my grubby little mitts would move.)

    The first test was done in the old-style GI holster...in Condition 3, with the flap closed and the spare mag pouch and loaded mags alongside. The holstered pistol and mag pouch were standing in order to approximate the carry position on the belt.

    I threw 3 handfuls of dust at the hardware, and blew air on it to simulate the wind. The pistol functioned flawlessly for all three magazines, but there was a little grittiness as the spares locked into the magwell.

    The UM-84 test was also flawless, but there was a slightly gritty feel when the slide was racked, indicating that the current military holster doesn't protect the pistol quite as well as the older one. No difference in cycle time was noted.

    The Gould and Goodrich holster protected the gun from the dust storm about the same as the UM-84, and no malfunctions were noted, though I did notice that in manually cocking the hammer, it was apparent that the dirt was having an effect.

    The Bradley M-11 offered the least protection, and the grittiness in the slide and hammer had increased to the point of possibly causing a problem with the hammer fall if more dirt had been thrown into the gun. A gritty feel was also noticed in the grip safety, and at one point, the safety wouldn't reset to the safe position without help. It didn't fail to reset
    after the one occurence.

    The test on the Gould and the Bradley holsters was repeated with the pistols in Condition One, and the problems began. The first magazine through each functioned, with no failures to fire or lock the slide. The second magazine in the Gould test produced a failure to fire on round 5. Manually cocking the hammer and pulling the trigger fired the round, and no other failures were noted. The third magazine was a wipeout, with a failure to fire on every other round. I also began to notice a slightly
    gritty feel in the operation of the mag catch, but it didn't cause any problems with locking the magazine into the gun or in releasing the empty magazines, though they didn't fall free as easily as they would have without the dirt present.

    The Bradley holster, with its simple strap predictably allowed more grit into the gun, and produced a failure to fire on the first magazine at round number 4. Two restrikes were required to fire the round, and the magazine finished without further failure.

    The second magazine was a repeat of the third in the Gould test, and the gun was in complete shutdown by the second round of the third magazine...the point that I had been waiting...and hoping for. I removed the magazine and poured water from a bottle through the pistol in an effort to wash out the grit and return the gun to service in a
    "Field Expedient Emergency" simulation. When the water ran clear, I topped off the magazine locked it in, racked the slide, and tried again. The pistol functioned.

    I stood the loaded magazines up and threw a few handfuls of dirt at them, shook them off and blew on them to simulate a "Real World" action, locked them in, put the pistol in battery. All three magazines failed to get the last round to feeding position, and a bolt over base feed failure occured.

    I repeated the test on the magazines, but poured water over each one before locking them in...and they functioned to slidelock.

    I repeated the dirt test until I got consistent failures to fire, and dunked the gun into the water and agitated it for 5 seconds to simulate another "Field Expedient Emergency" action...and the gun functioned. I threw handfuls of dirt into the exposed magazines and dunked them into the water to wash them out. All functioned except one of the Metalforms, which failed to lock the slide on empty.

    The pistol was detail-stripped...All parts were washed in water, dried, lightly oiled, and the gun was reassembled. Likewise for the magazines. Total time was 20 minutes. The gun functioned perfectly with all 3 magazines, and no damage or looseness was noted for the remainder of the 200 rounds that I fired.

    For the final phase of this test, I employed a volunteer who showed up just as I was wrappin' things up. I asked him to stand 10 feet away and throw handfuls of the dust in my general direction while I fired 3 magazines in rapid succession to simulate a close-range UTYAIA drill in windy, dusty conditions. The pistol was fired to slidelock and speed-reloaded.

    Charles was a little puzzled by this request, but he accomodated. The pistol didn't malfunction, but was beginning to feel gritty at the end of the 21-round string. I again poured clean water through the pistol to rinse it out, and a 4th magazine was fired to slidelock. By now, he's at home telling his wife about a crazy man that he knows down at the range.



    Notes:

    The old-style GI holster protects the gun better than the UM-84...which does a better job
    of this than I expected.

    The open-topped holsters also do better than expected, though not nearly as well as the flap holsters.

    In a dusty environment, Condition 1 will afford 3 times the chance for a function
    failure than Condition 2 or 3.

    Cheers all!

    Tuner
     
  2. BigG

    BigG Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    7,080
    Location:
    Dixieland
    Very enlightening results, Mr. Tuner!

    Maybe that's why the old Army Fm prescribed Condition 3 (Empty Chamber, full magazine) as a rule and Condition 1 (cocked, locked, ready to rock) if you think you would be needing it imminently? ;)
     
  3. GigaBuist

    GigaBuist Member

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2003
    Messages:
    2,261
    Location:
    Grand Rapids, MI
    Does THR have an official mad scientist? If not -- I nominate Tuner :D

    I think Springfield owes you a couple of free guns -- surely a few cases of .45 ACP.
     
  4. Smoke

    Smoke Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2002
    Messages:
    3,251
    Location:
    Bosque County, Texas
    Tuner has put this one Springfield through more torture than all of my guns have seen combined.

    I'm starting to feel inadequate.

    "Maw! Where's that dadburned flour sifter?"

    Smoke:D
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2004
  5. wally

    wally Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2004
    Messages:
    13,212
    Location:
    Houston, Tx
    Speculation as to why Condition 3 stands up better to the fine grit?

    Is it because having the hammer down helps keep dirt out of the sear area and fireing pin?

    --wally.
     
  6. BluesBear

    BluesBear member

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2003
    Messages:
    7,672
    Location:
    The Great Pacific NorthWet
    Good observation Wally.

    The cocked hammer and the firing pin stop make a nice funnel leading right to the sear/disconnector/3 finger spring area.
     
  7. 1911Tuner

    1911Tuner Moderator Emeritus

    Joined:
    May 22, 2003
    Messages:
    18,550
    Location:
    Lexington,North Carolina...or thereabouts
    re:

    BigG said:

    Maybe that's why the old Army Fm prescribed Condition 3

    Either that or it was because the flap on the holster wouldn't hook over
    the button with the hammer cocked...:D It wouldn't affect Condition Two
    in any event, which leads me to believe that the Army was more concerned
    with the conscripts shootin' their toes off than anything else.:p
    ________________________________

    GigaBuist said:

    Does THR have an official mad scientist? If not -- I nominate Tuner

    I accept the nomination and promise to serve faithfully! I want
    Old Fuff for my runnin' mate...
    _______________________________

    Wally...my Secretary of Defense, BluesBear Rumsfeldt nailed that one
    square on the nailin' place.


    Stay tuned...(No pun intended) More to come:evil:
     
  8. wally

    wally Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2004
    Messages:
    13,212
    Location:
    Houston, Tx
    Of course the next question is how would a Glock, Sig or HK do on this test :)

    --wally.
     
  9. BluesBear

    BluesBear member

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2003
    Messages:
    7,672
    Location:
    The Great Pacific NorthWet
    That's BluesBear RumDrinker to y'all.

    Cheers!

    They now sell Barbarosa Spiced AND Goslings Black Seal up here. Civilization has finally found me.
     
  10. GigaBuist

    GigaBuist Member

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2003
    Messages:
    2,261
    Location:
    Grand Rapids, MI
    Hmmmm.. case of .45ACP Wolf from ammoman.com for $160. Talk about a torture test!

    Wheels are turning... think a Glock 21 can eat a case of that stuff as fast as somebody can shoot it without tearing it to pieces? I'd need more mags though, and have to find 2-3 guys to reload 'em while I ate through 'em all. It does sound like fun though!
     
  11. BHPshooter

    BHPshooter Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2002
    Messages:
    3,451
    Location:
    Utah
    VERY interesting, Tuner. Thanks for doing this.

    Have you ever done this to a P-35 Browning? I wonder how similar the results would be.

    Wes
     
  12. R.H. Lee

    R.H. Lee Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2004
    Messages:
    7,376
    Location:
    CA
    If it's the new Wolf with the polymer or whatever coating instead of the lacquer, it ought to work fine- $160 sounds real high, though, for a case.
     
  13. GigaBuist

    GigaBuist Member

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2003
    Messages:
    2,261
    Location:
    Grand Rapids, MI
    RileyMc,

    Whoops -- a "case" of .45acp I guess is 500 rounds. I was talking $160 for 1,000 rounds of the Wolf stuff. And, yes, it's the polymer coated stuff.

    I wonder how bad it'd goo-up in a hot barrel.

    Jr. Mad Scientist,
    GigaBuist :D
     
  14. R.H. Lee

    R.H. Lee Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2004
    Messages:
    7,376
    Location:
    CA
    I was thinking 1000 rds, but $160 sounds waaay high. Wolf should be no more than .08-.09 cents per round. A case should be well under $100.

    I use the polymer 7.62x39 in my SKS, which gets very hot. No melting, no goo. I would think it would work great in a 1911--and you don't have to run around picking up brass:D
     
  15. 1911Tuner

    1911Tuner Moderator Emeritus

    Joined:
    May 22, 2003
    Messages:
    18,550
    Location:
    Lexington,North Carolina...or thereabouts
    Wolf

    Be aware that Wolff .45 ACP ammo is out of spec on the rim diameter,
    with some coming in as much as .010 under nominal size. This much
    difference effectively reduces extractor tension, and can bring on
    extraction and ejection issues even with a perfectly tuned and adjusted extractor.

    There have also been spot reports of the new-issue Wolf .45 cases
    splitting from the mouth to the web.

    Just FYI...

    Luck!

    Tuner
     
  16. R.H. Lee

    R.H. Lee Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2004
    Messages:
    7,376
    Location:
    CA
    I did not know that. Thanks for the heads up, Tuner :)

    I did just buy a case of S&B, but haven't had a chance to try it yet. Any information on S&B?
     
  17. sm

    sm member

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2002
    Messages:
    28,389
    Location:
    Between black coffee, and shiftn' gears
    Great Thread and replies folks - Thanks!

    Tuner - check your email...that dealie I was gonna send in regard to this topic about 10 days ago... I finally sent it. :D

    Hey I got faults...I mean well...still got faults tho'.

    I have used that fine sand used in ash cans...I have tested 1911 style, Keltec p-11, and a model 10.
    Super X 1, 870, 1100 shotguns.
    Some other stuff other ways as well.

    I was curious.

    I've always been crazy - keeps me from going insane
     
  18. orangeninja

    orangeninja Member

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2003
    Messages:
    3,117
    I had a Glock 22 that Wolf would wreak havoc on.....:uhoh:
     
  19. 1911Tuner

    1911Tuner Moderator Emeritus

    Joined:
    May 22, 2003
    Messages:
    18,550
    Location:
    Lexington,North Carolina...or thereabouts
    re:

    Howdy Riley,

    There was a time that Bill Wilson would guarantee reliability with his pistols
    ONLY if Sellier & Bellot was used. I've found the stuff to be pretty good,
    even if it is a little dirty. It's close enough to hardball spec to be real
    hardball, and is as accurate and reliable as PMC...and a bit better than
    Wally World Winchester Value-Packs.

    The downside is that the primer pockets aren't standard, and need a little
    twist with a deburring tool to reprime the cases easily. The other is that
    thy don't last as long as Winchester or PMC if you reload and shoot a lot.

    I'll buy S&B: A...If I need some factory .45 ACP. B...If Natchez or Midway is
    running a special on it, and C...If They aren't running a special on PMC at the same time. PMC is a little higher, but I like it for the fact that I've
    never had a single problem with any PMC ammo, and the brass is good.
    FWIW, PMC hardball is my carry ammo.

    Steve,

    I got that E-mail...Interesting read. I think you should post the link.:evil:

    Luck!

    Tuner
     
  20. R.H. Lee

    R.H. Lee Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2004
    Messages:
    7,376
    Location:
    CA
    Yes, I had heard about this. The pockets can also be "swaged" to size IIRC.
    I sold/traded all my reloading equipment over 25 years ago, (when family obligations started) so now I just pick up and save the brass.

    PMC is probably my favorite ammo in all calibers, but I haven't found an inexpensive relable source. :D
     
  21. Old Fuff

    Old Fuff Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    23,908
    Location:
    Arizona
    Tuner:

    >> I accept the nomination and promise to serve faithfully! I want
    Old Fuff for my runnin' mate... <<

    You'all saying that I'm a bit ..... off-balance?

    I aint going to let you get near my .45's ... And it's my duty to, ah ... rescue those poor N-frames you have before you start getting ideas ...

    Bucket of water indeed ....
     
  22. sm

    sm member

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2002
    Messages:
    28,389
    Location:
    Between black coffee, and shiftn' gears
    Tuner Promised Me Immunity

    The following is from the 1911 Forum.
    I was not sure if the link would properly work since 1911Forum has upadated software.
    Larry Vickers,as many are aware of is a distinguished gunsmith. Larry Vickers serves in the Military

    For your review as it is related to what Tuner is sharing with us.
    - - -
    Vicker's Sand Test

    http://www.1911forum.com/forums/sea...d=540451&sortby=lastpost&sortorder=descending

    Sand Test
    Just had a chance to do a harsh sand test on few different handguns. This test was not scientific but was very enlightening.

    Pistols tested were; HK USP Tactical
    Customized 1911
    rack grade GI 1911
    Glock 21

    Test consisted of placing each pistol loaded in a Bianchi GI field holster inside a plastic bag with approx 2 cups of fine/medium grit sand ( North Carolina type). Then the bag was shaken vigorously for 10 seconds while holding onto the pistol butt for safety. The pistol was then taken out and 3 mags were fired through the 1911 and 2 fully loaded mags were fired through the HK and Glock - roughly the same amount of ammo. The sand coverage was very good and uniformly covered the pistols. The pistols were loaded in the mode you would expect in a field environment - condition 3 for the 1911, loaded for the Glock and loaded in DA mode for the USP.A test was done dry and lubed with TW 25B. This test represented EXTREME sand conditions - not normal field use, even in sandy conditions.A brief rundown of the results follow;

    1)Carrying your gun dry in this environment is a NO GO despite what some will say. All pistols performed worse dry than lubed.

    2)All pistols required some manipulation in order to fire - none would function normally straight out of the holster.

    3)Overall the HK USP performed the best - the performance of it dry was roughly the same as the customized 1911 but was definately the best lubed. Overall it performed well.

    4)The custom 1911 was second - interestingly enough the trigger track was not a real problem - the sand that went in through the ejection port to the bottom lugs area caused the most problems. Once the sand shifted in this area the pistol functioned better.

    5)The rack grade GI 1911 was a distant third - the custom 1911 had an 18 pound recoil spring and that helped with feeding greatly vs the rack grade gun. Swap out the recoil spring and it probably would have done better.

    6)The shocker of the day - the Glock 21 FAILED terribly. The big problem was failure of the trigger to reset. Also at times the pistol would not fire due to sand in the trigger mechanism. The dry test could not even be completed with the Glock due to this.This surprised all of us as we expected the Glock to do quite well.

    Moral of the story; The 1911, even in its customized mode, can get the job done if you set it up to succeed. Lube it right, carry it in the right holster and in the proper mode, and it won't let you down - just like it hasn't for nearly a 100 years.

    The HK USP series are good guns - well designed and well made - for service pistols. The ergonomics hurt the pistol dramatically but for an out of the box service pistol/field gun, they get my endorsement.

    The Glock 21 is a dog - always has been. It has the rep of being the worst gun Glock makes. I have a Glock 17 and 19 and like them for what they are - but don't get sucked into the Glock hype - they are not magical guns. Remember what your dad said when you were in 3rd grade; don't believe everything you read.

    Hope you guys got something out of this - I did.
     
  23. BHPshooter

    BHPshooter Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2002
    Messages:
    3,451
    Location:
    Utah
    sm, thanks for posting that. It's been a long time since I read it last.

    Anybody know of anyone that has done a test like this to a P-35 Browning? I've read of the ones Canada did after WWII, but I'm looking for something a bit more modern. Any help is appreciated.

    Tuner, thanks again for doing this. You're a true intellectual.

    Wes
     
  24. sm

    sm member

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2002
    Messages:
    28,389
    Location:
    Between black coffee, and shiftn' gears
    Wes, your welcome sir!.

    I would be very curious myself as to how the P35 would do. I may be dumb, but I was not stupid in testing the only one I had at the time :)

    MY "gut feeling" - the P35 would test out /function very similar to a 1911.

    Paging Mr. Stephen Camp.
    Mr. Camp would probably know. Perhaps another thread to post this question and replies.

    Good stuff folks, let us continue.

    Steve
     
  25. 1911Tuner

    1911Tuner Moderator Emeritus

    Joined:
    May 22, 2003
    Messages:
    18,550
    Location:
    Lexington,North Carolina...or thereabouts
    re:

    FUff said:

    I aint going to let you get near my .45's ... And it's my duty to, ah ... rescue those poor N-frames you have before you start getting ideas ...

    Hmmmmm....A Revolver Torture Test. Hmmmmm....

    _______________________________

    Bucket of water indeed ....
    Hey! Don't gimme a hard time. It got the thing runnin' again, didn't it?:evil:
    ___________________________

    Anybody game for tryin' to Bribe Mr. Camp into puttin' one of his Belgian
    P-35's through the wringer? I'll supply the red clay and the water...:p

    Comin' next...The upgraded GI Springer. I might even check the 25-yard accuracy from a rest...just outta curiosity.

    Cheers!

    Tuner
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice