Springfield 1873 Trapdoor 45-70
- Thread starter wmgeorge
- Start date
- Status
Jim Watson
Member
There is probably a way to check out the breechblock but I don't know it. The lock must work.
Do you mean a Real Sharps, pre 1881 or a modern repro?
.45 x 2 1/10" was not a majority chamber for Sharps Rifle Co. and finding one would be a good trick. Lots of repros.
Do you mean a Real Sharps, pre 1881 or a modern repro?
.45 x 2 1/10" was not a majority chamber for Sharps Rifle Co. and finding one would be a good trick. Lots of repros.
Retreever
Member
Lot's of info here on Springfield Trapdoors there are even a few for sale https://www.trapdoorcollector.com/ I just bought an 1884 Model with 1889 mfg stamp
Jackrabbit1957
Member
- Joined
- Apr 6, 2018
- Messages
- 2,865
They show up on Track of the Wolf occasionally as well, some are even reasonably priced.
PRD1
Member
The only significant mechanical issue affecting the safety of the Trapdoor I have encountered is a cracked receiver: the crack is found just below the breechblock pivot pin at the front of the receiver. It is caused by 'flex' of the receiver due to over-pressure loads, and is not repairable, except by replacement of the receiver. An issue which affects shootability is that nearly all .45-70 Trapdoors have oversized groove diameters, which cause problems in making ammunition which will shoot accurately. The government specification for the Trapdoor barrel is: .450" bore, with grooves .005" deep, which would result in a .460" groove diameter. Most available bullets and molds run .457" - .458", and will shoot fairly well in a bore which is to spec. However, having measured very many Trapdoor barrels, I find that the average of existing ones runs closer to .462", and much larger ones than that (up to .468", in my experience) are common. Such oversize bores do not shoot well with undersized bullets, and it is not possible to seat a bullet much larger than .461" in the case and still chamber it in the rifle. Soft cast bullets with blackpowder will 'bump-up' to an extent, and shoot fairly well in oversized bores, but will not do so with any smokeless load I've tried. Unfortunately, it is not easy to measure the groove diameter of the 3-groove Trapdoor barrel (I use a 3-point internal micrometer), though careful slugging and measurement can give you a pretty good idea of the dimension. If you want a shooter, I'd recommend you try to find a Trapdoor with a good bore which has a groove diameter of not over .460", though that will not be easy. In many years of involvement with the Trapdoor, I've only found about 3 which actually fell within the nominal .460" or slightly smaller. Good Luck!
PRD1 - mhb - MIke
PRD1 - mhb - MIke
.455_Hunter
Member
Given their history, Trapdoors are still a great value on the market. There a plenty of variations for the collector to build upon. There is no need to "deal" with a poorly sporterized or worn-out guns when nice examples can be found for under $1000. The Army seemed to have pretty good cleaning discipline, as most bores are at least decent. My 1868 .50-70 is a grizzled veteran of the frontier, but still has a perfect bore. Key points include to ensure the hammer is fully functional, including holding on half-cock when trigger is pulled, and the the breech block has minimal play when closed. Firing pins are frequently broken, but replacements are readily available. I would also avoid a gun that shows strong evidence of heavy dry firing, with deformation of the hammer nose and breech block impact area. If you look at a later example with the Buffington sight, make sure the mechanism is not warped, jammed or stripped.
I have successfully shot out to 1000 yards using my Trapdoors and BP ammo- Great Fun!
I have successfully shot out to 1000 yards using my Trapdoors and BP ammo- Great Fun!
TheOutlawKid
Member
- Joined
- May 31, 2018
- Messages
- 1,480
I really really really want a sharps paper cartridge rifle. Thats my dream rifle. But alas im young and poor and most of my extra money goes to extra speech/physical therapy for my 4 year old autistic daughter. But one day i hope to have one...even thought up a way to make some great combustible paper cartridges for it (similar to the straight walled paper cartridges i make for my cap and ball revolvers). I heard/read that pedersoli makes a good replica of one.
Old Stumpy
Member
- Joined
- Mar 3, 2019
- Messages
- 1,451
I sympathize with you and have much respect for you.
I have an adult nephew who is autistic and does not speak at all.
There is so much that his parents have sacrificed to give him the care and special education he needs and a meaningful home life over the years.
His mother and father have been champions.
Just about anything that Pedersoli makes is excellent. I sincerely hope that you can own a paper cartridge Sharps somehow, some way, and some day. Maybe even a Shiloh.
Last edited:
I own a Pedersoli Sharps and I love mine and definitely would recommend it. I was fortunate enough to compare it next to a cimmaron and a chiappa that were several hundred dollars less. I purchased the Pedersoli simply because of its finish and action which far out performed the other brands . I am now looking at either a cimmaron or chiappa for hunting as I don't care if it gets banged up and the action with uses and time will be smooth too. If you live around San Antonio Texas I would be more than willing to let you shoot mine at 200 and 300 yards and I'll provide the ammo too.
dh1633pm
Contributing Member
I have a Trap Door. In pretty nice shape. I had always wanted one. A couple years ago I finally got my wish. Took almost 30 years and some saving, but patients is a virtue.
do as i do sell something you dont really need then use the money to get the gun you really want. never ask the wife for money i find it some how by sell off things that are gathering dust. a hollow based bullet will bump up in a springfield. im into paperpatching and hollow based swagged bullets, they work very well for me.
OP
OP
wmgeorge
Member
- Joined
- Mar 28, 2017
- Messages
- 560
You folks with the Sharps, what are you shooting lead or jacketed? Gee I see the price is about $1.50 - $2.00 round for 45-70 , looks like another set of dies to buy!! Maybe loading with BP? Considering the Lyman new manufactured or similar as soon as I clean out my inventory.
i either cast a bullet and swage it to what i want or swage from lead wire for my 45/70 then i dry wrap tightly paperpatch. i would never buy the cartridges loaded. some of my brass is 30 years old and still being used. i dont crimp, just slip fit a bullet into a loaded case. the cases last a long time that way. the nickel has worn off the nickel plated ones but they are still good. as many did in those days i enlarged the flash holes even used reloader 7 in those case after i talked to the company that makes reloader 7. they said their would be no problem with it. i did use black powder and even duplex loads but now just black horn 209 as it does not foul and is very accurate as is real black powder. never used pyrodex much or at all as it will rust anything it gets near really bad. if put in by a drop tube and not compressed it can be accurate also but to rust forming on the gun and hard on the 45/70 cases. never used smokless powder except reloader 7. its bulky and can fill a case. shot my paperpatched bullets very accurately but a little too much recoil for me. paperpatched bullets can be shot much faster than cast lubed lead. dont know if reloader 7 would work on a cast lubed bullet. may push it too fast. wont shoot a jacketed bullet in my gun. the barrel could take it but no need to the way i shoot mine. paperpatching is a jacketed bullet. paper is the jacket. no lube on the paper. some say you will wear out a barrel with paper. no way. you wont live long enough for that. does shine up the barrel though. my barrel was cut by smith in canada and is a gain twist. he done such a good job it is like a mirror in the bore before i shot paperpatch. now even more so. no need to lap that barrel. hoots tight groups from day one.
Jim Watson
Member
I cast for my .38-55 but got lazy and bought custom cast bullets for my .40-65.
When I got into BPCR, I quit loading smokeless in the .38 and never did for the .40.
Good quality black powder ammo is more work but shoots well.
Cleaning is not the chore the Internet Doomsayers would have you think, you don't have to put your gun in the dishwasher.
The barrel length is not in proportion to the range. A Sharps carbine is kind of a kicker. A 30" barrel and shotgun butt are very nearly standard among BPCR shooters.
Pedersoli is about the best of the foreign copies, but the best buy is a C. Sharps 1875. It doesn't have the movie credits of the 1874 but it is less expensive than 1874s from C. Sharps or Shiloh and is a fine shooter.
https://www.csharpsarms.com/catalog-detail/36/Model-1875-Target-and-Sporting-Rifle.html
Me? My .38-55 is a real Winchester and my .40-65 is a Japanese Browning "highwall"
When I got into BPCR, I quit loading smokeless in the .38 and never did for the .40.
Good quality black powder ammo is more work but shoots well.
Cleaning is not the chore the Internet Doomsayers would have you think, you don't have to put your gun in the dishwasher.
The barrel length is not in proportion to the range. A Sharps carbine is kind of a kicker. A 30" barrel and shotgun butt are very nearly standard among BPCR shooters.
Pedersoli is about the best of the foreign copies, but the best buy is a C. Sharps 1875. It doesn't have the movie credits of the 1874 but it is less expensive than 1874s from C. Sharps or Shiloh and is a fine shooter.
https://www.csharpsarms.com/catalog-detail/36/Model-1875-Target-and-Sporting-Rifle.html
Me? My .38-55 is a real Winchester and my .40-65 is a Japanese Browning "highwall"
I've an 1873 Springfield rifle that was cut down to carbine length. If you didn't measure the outside diameter of the barrel you'd think it was a real carbine. I've had it for a little over 30 years. My load for it is lg rifle primer, Starline brass, 50 grn of 3f, and a 320 grn gas checked bullet that I cast. Light of recoil and very accurate out to about 100 yards. I shoot and immediately the brass goes into a jug full of water and gets cleaned when I get home. easy peasy and most of the brass is over 20 years old. Tarnished but works well.
Driftwood Johnson
Member
Howdy
If you want a Sharps, this is the model that I bought:
https://www.dixiegunworks.com/index/page/product/product_id/8340/category_id/314/product_name/CR0415+PEDERSOLI+SHARPS+M1874+SILHOUETTE+RIFLE,+.45-70
There are a few reasons I went with this model.
First of all, I wanted a 'shotgun' style butt plate, not a crescent shaped butt plate. I have enough experience with crescent shaped butt plates to know that if you mount it to your shoulder incorrectly, with the points of the crescent in contact with the meaty part of the shoulder, it is gonna hurt like the dickens when you fire it as recoil drives the points into the your flesh. I know how to mount a crescent shaped butt plate correctly, hiked out a little bit further on the arm, with the points of the crescent encircling the shoulder joint, but shooting from the bench that can be awkward.
Second I wanted one chambered for 45-70. A lot of guys want a 45-110 or 45-120, but if you are shooting Smokeless there is no advantage to the larger case, you can get all the powder needed in the shorter 45-70 case. Plus, there is more available for 45-70 as far as brass, dies, and written advice than for any of the other 'more esoteric' cartridges such as .50-90 or many of the other cartridges the Sharps was chambered for. For your first Sharps, or Trap Door for that matter, stick with 45-70.
This model is very plain jane. I chose it because on inspection of some of the fancier models I was disappointed with the execution of some of the details such as the checkering and the forend cap. A proper fore end cap should be cast in place on the fore end and shaped to match the wood. Most of the imports pin the forend cap in place, and from what I could see, it was not always done very well.
So this model is exactly what I was looking for, plane jane, 45-70, pistol grip, and double set triggers, 30" octagon barrel. This is gonna hurt, but when I bought this model a whole bunch of years ago it was on sale for $800. A lot of the stuff at Dixie goes on sale periodically, so it is good to check back often and see if something is on sale.
This is the tang sight I put on my Sharps:
https://www.dixiegunworks.com/index/page/product/product_id/1691
You can spend a couple of hundred on a good tang sight, but this was good enough for me to start with.
Black Powder? Well duh, this is the BP forum isn't it? My Sharps has never had anything but Black Powder fired in it, except the proof loads at the factory. I like a 405 grain .458 diameter lead bullet.
That is one of my 45-70 rounds on the far right in this photo, which is also the same round I shoot in my Trap Door.
If you buy a short carbine style Sharps you are going to want to cut down on the powder. The Trap Door 45-70 Carbine load only had about 55 grains of powder in it, along with some cardboard wadding to take up the extra space, because 70 grains of powder produced a pretty brutal recoil in a light carbine. (Hint: NEVER allow air space in a Black Powder cartridge. If you are going to reduce the charge, you MUST fill up the extra space with something. The Government 45-70 carbine loads used cardboard wadding)
If you want a Sharps, this is the model that I bought:
https://www.dixiegunworks.com/index/page/product/product_id/8340/category_id/314/product_name/CR0415+PEDERSOLI+SHARPS+M1874+SILHOUETTE+RIFLE,+.45-70
There are a few reasons I went with this model.
First of all, I wanted a 'shotgun' style butt plate, not a crescent shaped butt plate. I have enough experience with crescent shaped butt plates to know that if you mount it to your shoulder incorrectly, with the points of the crescent in contact with the meaty part of the shoulder, it is gonna hurt like the dickens when you fire it as recoil drives the points into the your flesh. I know how to mount a crescent shaped butt plate correctly, hiked out a little bit further on the arm, with the points of the crescent encircling the shoulder joint, but shooting from the bench that can be awkward.
Second I wanted one chambered for 45-70. A lot of guys want a 45-110 or 45-120, but if you are shooting Smokeless there is no advantage to the larger case, you can get all the powder needed in the shorter 45-70 case. Plus, there is more available for 45-70 as far as brass, dies, and written advice than for any of the other 'more esoteric' cartridges such as .50-90 or many of the other cartridges the Sharps was chambered for. For your first Sharps, or Trap Door for that matter, stick with 45-70.
This model is very plain jane. I chose it because on inspection of some of the fancier models I was disappointed with the execution of some of the details such as the checkering and the forend cap. A proper fore end cap should be cast in place on the fore end and shaped to match the wood. Most of the imports pin the forend cap in place, and from what I could see, it was not always done very well.
So this model is exactly what I was looking for, plane jane, 45-70, pistol grip, and double set triggers, 30" octagon barrel. This is gonna hurt, but when I bought this model a whole bunch of years ago it was on sale for $800. A lot of the stuff at Dixie goes on sale periodically, so it is good to check back often and see if something is on sale.
This is the tang sight I put on my Sharps:
https://www.dixiegunworks.com/index/page/product/product_id/1691
You can spend a couple of hundred on a good tang sight, but this was good enough for me to start with.
Black Powder? Well duh, this is the BP forum isn't it? My Sharps has never had anything but Black Powder fired in it, except the proof loads at the factory. I like a 405 grain .458 diameter lead bullet.
That is one of my 45-70 rounds on the far right in this photo, which is also the same round I shoot in my Trap Door.
If you buy a short carbine style Sharps you are going to want to cut down on the powder. The Trap Door 45-70 Carbine load only had about 55 grains of powder in it, along with some cardboard wadding to take up the extra space, because 70 grains of powder produced a pretty brutal recoil in a light carbine. (Hint: NEVER allow air space in a Black Powder cartridge. If you are going to reduce the charge, you MUST fill up the extra space with something. The Government 45-70 carbine loads used cardboard wadding)
I was referring to you. At the beginning I was shooting factory ammo cast and jacketed.
Still haven't shot black powder out of it and am using Accurate powder 5744. Missouri Bullets company has a great assortment of coated bullets that I plan to reload and since I'm not loading them hot I won't require a gas check.
I am getting ready to shoot BP on cartridges that I ordered online a box of 500 grain and 535 postells to see if I will enjoy black powder. As I understand recoil with black powder is not as bad as with smokeless. But can't really tell the difference as my sharps weighs close to 13 pounds.
Last edited:
I've got a Pedersoli sharps, and a few trapdoors.
All of em are fun and draw a few over to the table at the range.
Everyone starts looking around to see what is producing large white clouds of smoke.
The trapdoor checklist is easy.
1> Make sure the bore isn't destroyed and the crown is ok.
2> Make sure the breech block isn't very wobbly back and forth, a small amount is acceptable. A bit of side to side play is acceptable.
3> Check the front of the receiver for cracks. The front two ring areas that the breech pin slides into.
4> Ensure the firing pin isn't broken.. Flip the block open and check.
5> Make sure the hammer holds on half and full cocktail.
6> If the lockplate is dated then it isn't original and lowers the value
All of em are fun and draw a few over to the table at the range.
Everyone starts looking around to see what is producing large white clouds of smoke.
The trapdoor checklist is easy.
1> Make sure the bore isn't destroyed and the crown is ok.
2> Make sure the breech block isn't very wobbly back and forth, a small amount is acceptable. A bit of side to side play is acceptable.
3> Check the front of the receiver for cracks. The front two ring areas that the breech pin slides into.
4> Ensure the firing pin isn't broken.. Flip the block open and check.
5> Make sure the hammer holds on half and full cocktail.
6> If the lockplate is dated then it isn't original and lowers the value
Ephraim Kibbey
Member
YES!
Here are just a few of them on GB and Armslist:
GunBroker:
1873 Springfield search (first 11
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/869249048
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/868852014
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/871475349
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/870676931
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/872340296
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/870999615
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/863782655
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/867218495
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/871269873
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/871473845
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/870322619
Sharps .45-70 search:
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/867609181
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/871573653
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/871704848
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/871678851
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/872253427
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/867100150
Antiques any caliber:
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/870562885
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/865366630
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/869908156
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/871754771
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/872299672
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/867199739
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/871576855
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/871658595
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/870214205
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/864864798
Armslist:
https://www.armslist.com/posts/1145...r-s---co-1874-sharps-32--45-70-govt--138cablu
https://www.armslist.com/posts/1072...-for-sale--meacham---sharps---45-70-stk--a931
https://www.armslist.com/posts/12010850/albuquerque-new-mexico-rifles-for-sale--1874-sharps-rifle
https://www.armslist.com/posts/1200...as-rifles-for-sale--1874-sharps-business-rifl
https://www.armslist.com/posts/10893808/phoenix-arizona-antiques-for-sale--1863-sharps-carbine
https://www.armslist.com/posts/1026...-springfield-1884-rifle---excellent-condition
https://www.armslist.com/posts/8655602/north-dakota-rifles-for-sale--springfield-1873-trapdoor
https://www.armslist.com/posts/1032...5--barrel--95--condition----120085---preowned
https://www.armslist.com/posts/1116...-trapdoor---officers-model---45-70---stk--c28
https://www.armslist.com/posts/1032...5--barrel--78--condition----166764---preowned
There are many more to chose from at both sites! The trick may not be finding one but finding the one you want!
OP
OP
wmgeorge
Member
- Joined
- Mar 28, 2017
- Messages
- 560
Wow thanks guys, I will be looking at new repro's not the old civil war ones as I intend to shoot. Was leaning toward the Lyman but Driftwoods post on that Dixie Gun works Sharps has really got me thinking. Since no one stocks these here I will need to order online and hope for the best. Used Sharps or Trapdoors are within a $100 or so of new.
I ordered from a place in UT a new in the box Lyman. It was hundreds of dollars less than those used ones. Free shipping, no CC fee and a no hassle return if returned its not transferred to me by my FFL or fired... duh. The one at Dixie GW would have been my go to If I had not of found these. They have a few more left in stock.
I ordered from a place in UT a new in the box Lyman. It was hundreds of dollars less than those used ones. Free shipping, no CC fee and a no hassle return if returned its not transferred to me by my FFL or fired... duh. The one at Dixie GW would have been my go to If I had not of found these. They have a few more left in stock.
Well, yes, and no. At first the Armory used a cardboard tube to reduce the capacity of the casing. This caused the carbine and the rifle cartridge to look alike so the Armory put a C on the headstamp to indicate a carbine load. Next were the wads you mentioned. Still looked like the rifle load so the C continued. Finally, someone got the idea to eliminate the wads and just seat the bullet down on the powder. This saved the step of loading the wads into place. Because the cartridge was now visually dis-similar to the rifle round, the headstamp was not required to be stamp with the C. A second step saved.
Kevin
Yeah. Full rifle loads through my carbine are uncomfortable.
55 grains and a 405 beeswax filled hollow based lead projo are a lot more comfortable.
But NOWHERE near as downright painful as a full .577-.450 rifle cartridge in a Martini-Henry carbine.
55 grains and a 405 beeswax filled hollow based lead projo are a lot more comfortable.
But NOWHERE near as downright painful as a full .577-.450 rifle cartridge in a Martini-Henry carbine.
- Status
