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Springfield Armory takes aim at Sig's 365

Discussion in 'Handguns: Autoloaders' started by dave333, Sep 25, 2019.

  1. dave333

    dave333 Member

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    Their big announcement today is a micro compact pistol with 11+1 capacity that appears aimed directly at the 365. Looks pretty well thought out, many things that will appeal to lots of people, like a universal rail for any accessory and an optical sight option. Also comes with 11 round and 13 round mag in the box.

    https://www.springfield-armory.com/hellcat-features/
     
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  2. Browning

    Browning Member

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    I like it’s looks better than the Sig p365.

    I’m always leery about buying pistols of new design before they’ve been out for awhile though.
     
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  3. SeanSw

    SeanSw Member

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    I'm liking it. My Springfield's have all been good to go and I will keep an eye on these.
     
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  4. DairyVet

    DairyVet Member

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    Interesting. First of the HS Produkt striker guns without a grip safety.

    Stippled guide rod is a bit of an odd touch.
     
  5. Walkalong

    Walkalong Moderator

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    Kind of ugly, and I hate flipper triggers, but it it feels as good in the hand, shoots as well as the P-365, and I can shoot it great without glasses like I can the P-365, it would be a winner, especially the OSP version which is still small vs the P-365XL.

    It's going to sell.
     
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  6. WYO

    WYO Member

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    I have a P365 and a P365 XL, but I'm always interested in new technology. On a macro level, rather than considering this as a shot by Springfield against the P365, I see it as the marketplace chipping away at Glock's 30 year run of market dominance.

    I was an early adopter of the Springfield XD-S, and the company announced a safety recall and collected tons of guns from consumers before Springfield even had a fix for it. They forgot to mention that to the public. I am not ready to forget that yet.
     
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  7. SeanSw

    SeanSw Member

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    I know a few people that feel that way. I was a later adopter of the xd-s and it has run 100% since the first shot. My first generation XD 45 service has been top notch as well. My experience is limited and I would absolutely own another Springfield, however, I will not be among the first wave of purchasers!
     
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  8. Erief0g
    • Contributing Member

    Erief0g Contributing Member

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    I've been carrying an xds since purchase in 2014. It's been flawless and accurate through over eight thousand rounds.

    8k of live fire and probably 10k of dry fire and the trigger isn't as smooth as the wife's new vp9. I could drop a powder river trigger in but the gun just works. I shoot any of my other firearms and once it's back in my hand there is no relearn or get back in the feel of it. The xds is ingrained in me.

    If in the market I wouldn't hesitate to own another.

    Other noteworthy mention is how short the lead to the rifling is. Gotta check your COAL closely when reloading, especially short fat 124 plus grain hollow points etc..
     
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  9. spar10

    spar10 Member

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    Waiting to let the bugs get worked out is always a great idea. The 365 proved that point too. Waited to get mine until after a few of the bugs were taken care of and love it.

    Big fan of Springfield and I'm sure they'll do a great job with whatever they put out there. Looking forward to checking it out.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2019
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  10. George P

    George P Member

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    Adding accessory rails (and those accessories) and an optical sight kinda defeats the whole purpose. The 365 was designed as a small, easily concealable (and thin) 9mm with a capacity ranging from 40-100% more than an equally sized 9mm small handgun
     
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  11. 1KPerDay

    1KPerDay Member

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    Disagree. Every defensive handgun should have an optical sight if possible. Unless it’s in a pocket there is zero reason not to other than cost. They are far superior in functionality to iron sights, just as red dots on rifles have become the standard for combat/CQB/defense in place of irons.
     
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  12. George P

    George P Member

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    But then you might as well go with a larger gun. For the small package and pocketable carry ability, I won't as it has excellent sights
     
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  13. Browning

    Browning Member

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    - Cost (some cost about as much as the pistol they’d go on).
    - Bulk (“Unless it’s in a pocket ...”).
    - Batteries can fail/contact points for the batteries can fail.
    - Shooters that have trained on irons extensively are going to be a hair slower with dots.
    - The lens can be obscured with debris (mud, dirt, rain/snow etc).

    Let’s be honest, they’re great when they work. Not all the bugs and disadvantages have been worked out yet.

    If I get one I’ll probably get the version where a red dot can be mounted (who knows what the future may bring), but I’ll probably wait on installing that one. From feedback the poly lens gets scratched into uselessness pretty quick with any use.
     
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  14. 1KPerDay

    1KPerDay Member

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    What feedback are you reading? I have 12K rounds on one of my RMRs. No scratches.

    look up sage dynamics on YouTube and watch his tests of the RMR.
     
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  15. Browning

    Browning Member

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    I never mentioned Trijicon RMR. I was talking about some of the drawbacks of micro red dot pistol sights of which RMR is just one, you heard “RMR”.

    On the scratched up lens part I was talking about the Shield RMSc red dot sight. You know? The one that they’ve been sending out in that media pack with the pistol?

    Do a search on that optic.

    With the Trijicon RMR it will hang over a tiny amount on the Hellcat. Not flush.

    You mean this? Already saw it when it first came out.



    Watch the entire thing, check out his groups on both, check the timer on both ... come to you own conclusion.

    He’s faster on irons and more accurate on irons.

    Can there be some advantages for some people? Sure. I’m not someone who has trouble seeing my sights ( ... yet). I’ve played with them, I’m not on board.

    At some point the price will drop and the technology will undoubtedly improve. Of that I have no doubt. It’s just not there yet.
     
  16. Walkalong

    Walkalong Moderator

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    :)

    That said, one of the great things about the P-365 is I can shoot it very well with the open sights it has. One could argue they could fix up any pistol that way, and it's true for many, but I also love the ergonomics of the P-365.
     
  17. 460Shooter

    460Shooter Member

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    I see our competitive shooters often mention that optics equipped pistols are far faster to shoot accurately than iron sights, and I see those statements frequently. There has to be something to it with it repeated so often, and when you look at competitors in general, they are all sporting optics nowadays unless prohibited by the rules of the specific game.

    I'm still young enough that with a good three dot setup, night sights preferred, I'm pretty confident I will be able to draw aim and shoot even a small gun fast enough to get some idiot criminal or drugged up creep away from me. I have been reluctant to carry or use optics in SD as it seems another point of failure, and another source of bulk, but as I age, seeing the front sight is likely to get harder. I think I'd be putting myself at a disadvantage if I don't at least pay attention to my speed and question the use of an optic for the future. There are lots of holsters out there developed for optics equipped guns, and I'm glad for it. By the time I decide it's time to transition to an optics equipped SD gun, I'll be excited to see what technology has created and made available to me.

    For now though, if I was buying a Hellcat, I doubt I'd care if it had the optics cut or not. But since it's cheap to get that model, I'd probably opt for it in case I change my mind. It's what, a $30 difference? Options are good.

    If I bought a P365, the lack of an optics cut wouldn’t bother me in the least, for now.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2019
  18. Browning

    Browning Member

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    The people who are happy with them seem very happy.

    Reports of intermittent malfunctions and flat out lemons scared me off. The Sig 365 is a good looking pistol though and it feels good in the hand. If you have a good one then that’s awesome. I more imagine that’s generally the rule (getting a good one) and that getting a lemon is the rare exception, I’ve just been bit before.
     
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  19. Browning

    Browning Member

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    If you’re new to shooting and start out with a red dot equipped pistol then it’s not that big of a deal.

    However if you’ve shot for a long time and are used to irons then there’s a period of time where you’re retraining yourself and where you’re ‘hunting for the dot’ on presentation rather than just an automatic ‘front sight, press’.

    After you’ve become accustomed to them then it’s just as fast. It takes awhile though.
     
  20. 1KPerDay

    1KPerDay Member

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    Really? Ask him what he thinks about your conclusion. Watch some more of his stuff. He would never tell you he’s faster or more accurate with irons. He has lots of data and white papers on the subject if you care to do some research.

    Don’t know why you’re taking this personally. Do you even own a RDS on a pistol? Do you have any actual experience using them?
     
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  21. 460Shooter

    460Shooter Member

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    Sure, there’s a learning curve with any equipment. I’ve been shooting iron sights for as long as I’ve been shooting. But I believe based on the choices of competitive shooters everywhere that after that adjustment I’d probably find electronic optics faster.

    It’s just an opinion and may not hold true for everyone.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2019
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  22. Browning

    Browning Member

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    Watch his summation at the end of the video.



    Starts at 5:22

    Aaron Cowan said ...
    “Alright, for me what I learned today with the RMR vs the iron sights is that for me personally I’m going to be faster and more accurate on iron sights.

    I already know the reason for that ... the reason for that is that since I began shooting handguns 20 years ago I’ve always been using iron sights ..”.

    That’s what he said right? I came to much the same conclusion.

    I’m not taking this personally. Was just stating what my opinion is and what my experience has been. Same as you. It’s not an argument as far as I’m concerned. It’s a discussion.

    Not anymore (Burris) and yes.

    We’re allowed to respectfully disagree with each other.

    If you like your RMR and you’re faster or more accurate with it then keep it and shoot with it, that’s great. It’s just my opinion, not the Sermon on the Mount.

    I think you’re reading an attitude into my responses that seriously isn’t there.

    We disagree on what sights we put on pistols, it isn’t that big of a deal. I’m sure we agree on 99.73% on most everything else in regards to guns, gear, social issues etc etc [percentage may not be an exact figure].
     
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  23. Mauser lover

    Mauser lover Member

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    New to optics, but I've been shooting (recreationally, mind you) action pistol matches of one sort or another for a good while.

    My times are WAAAAY slower with an optic on my handguns (okay, that might be misinterpreted. About a second longer from timer to first shot, as an example, which is ridiculous in my mind). For now. Why? The "hunting for the dot" is a problem for me (for now) and I'm not quite used to the shake shown by the the dot (yet).

    Theoretically optics are faster, so I practice and work towards being proficient with my optics. I'm not there yet, but I've been shooting irons since the last millennia!

    I need them to figure how to put a usable optic on a KelTec P32 for me to carry. My next pistol build (longslide glockish thing under way, hoping to pick up the rest of the parts on black Friday) is either going to have an RMR cut or I'm going to cut it. Not actually planning to put an optic on my carry gun anytime soon, but it's always nice to have options.

    Just so everyone knows... I'd probably rather have the Sig, if I was getting one or the other. When I hear "Hellcat" I immediately think "Grumman".
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2019
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  24. 1KPerDay

    1KPerDay Member

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    Thanks for the very courteous reply. Interesting... because his more recent videos are much more evangelical toward defensive/duty use of RDS on pistols. The video above was 6 years ago. It’d be interesting to see a refresh.
    And Burris FF while a good basic RDS (I have one) would not be a good choice for a defensive pistol IMO. The RMR is actually durable and reliable enough and maybe the new aimpoint ACRO. that remains to be seen.
     
  25. Walkalong

    Walkalong Moderator

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    Red dots took over the speed pistol shooting games because they are faster.

    It's different, and yes, it takes practice.
     
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