Standing in line... what would you do?

Discussion in 'Strategies, Tactics, and Training' started by Sportcat, Feb 21, 2005.

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  1. Sportcat

    Sportcat Member

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    How did he "start the fight?" :confused:
     
  2. RaggedClaws

    RaggedClaws Member

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    That guy was a doofus, that's for sure. What an idiot. I can't imagine getting in that situation, let alone escalating it like he did. Stepping up to that guy's woman like that was an act of utter stupidity. And then taking his eyes off the guy to answer his phone! What a moron!

    At some point though, enough is enough. I think that sucker punch was enough all by itself (and somewhat warranted I have to say). Thank god that guy didn't get dragged outside, or the situation could've turned out a lot worse....

    Sometimes just saying "Enough!" in a loud authoritative voice is enough to de-escalate these situations, and that's what I'm sure I would've done had I been there (from outside his distance, in a fighting stance, pepper spray firmly in hand).
     
  3. Joe Demko

    Joe Demko Member

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    He didn't start the fight, as such, but he did display a remarkable lack of self-preservation instinct by deciding to interact with fatboy's already out of control girlfriend.
    Honestly, if I had been cellphone boy, the moment she gave me that first confrontative poke in the face, I'd have decked her. The absolute worst that could have happened from there would have been a beating from fatboy...which he got anyway. When somebody comes into a public space as out of control as she was, you take pains not to interact with them unless you want them to make their problems your problem.
     
  4. Sportcat

    Sportcat Member

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    I just watched the unedited video.

    It ticks me off even more that none of the other "men" standing in line did nothing - there were some pretty bigs boys (not as big as ex-con) in there who could have helped out.
     
  5. Ktulu

    Ktulu Member

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    Okay, saying he started the fight is a stretch. Sometimes I type before I think.

    RaggedClaws, it's hard to disagree with that, but it might not be such a good idea to use pepper spray in such a small space.
     
  6. RaggedClaws

    RaggedClaws Member

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    True. But it would give me confidence and I know that if I was in that situation, I would definitely draw it, just to give me a leg up (that's one big dude, and though I'm 6'4" too, he's got like a hundred pounds on me). I'm not sure, in the heat of the moment, that I would take into account the possibility that everyone in the place would be incapacitated, but at least I'd be the only one that would know it's coming :p
     
  7. carpettbaggerr

    carpettbaggerr Member

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    It would be a worse idea to have convulsions the rest of your life because you suffered brain damage. A bad beating is no joke. You may never be able to drive, or even walk straight again.

    And as to the bystanders in this case, they don't deserve much consideration.
     
  8. Risasi

    Risasi Member

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    This is sick.

    I'm from Nebraska. And from a small town. Generally if two guys get into a fight and there are no weapons involved, we let them sort it out. Unfortunately there is not a lot of sorting to do here. The cellphone guy got suckered. That poke in the face by the woman alone is assault and battery. She can be charged at this point. And I must admit I would be hesitant to do it but if pushed far enough I would hit a woman. She has no business acting like a guy on the mens side of the playground.

    As for descalating the situation what do you want the cell phone guy to do? Grovel? Hand his wallet over? Beg to kiss butt? Come on, he's not being that aggressive, just talking. I don't see how he could do much else. Yeah, I would have jumped in there. Maybe long before the first punch was thrown. Not to fight but to stand with the defender, and try to difuse also.

    And if it was after the sucker punch I would not have gone in swinging empty handed. I would have been looking for a stool or something. Many of you here are so apathetic it's sick. It's all "not me" until it's your turn to get caught flat footed. I got sucker punched once, and it was with a steel pipe to the face. The only difference was I had help, people who jumped in. I'm grateful for that and will lend a hand if I was a bystander in that situation.

    Now let me digress a bit. This is what is wrong with this country. We have no ways of settling disputes like real men. We have to resort to litigation. That's stupid. Why can't two grown men just "take it outside"? It used to be two people who had a squabble would leave the rest of us out of it and go settle it themselves. Whether it be with words, or blades, or even firearms I don't care. I am perfectly fine with those days coming back.

    1. It would clear the weenies out.

    2. We would no longer have need for 95% of the lawyers in the country.

    3. There is something terribly concise, romantic, and just plain ol' cool about duels. Plus the chicks dig the winner.
     
  9. CentralTexas

    CentralTexas Member

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    Wow.....

    People can get permenantly damaged or killed from one solid punch from a guy that large. Fist fights kill and the way our "Non-Pansy" laws are written in Texas that guy could have gotten smoked.
    We can use deadly force when an unarmed or armed person puts us in reasonable fear for our life or at danger of grievious bodily harm to ourselves or others. Got a knife within 21 ft and headed my way? C'ya in heaven buddy.

    I find it very interesting how the get involved/ don't get involved votes come from an almost red/blue state breakdown. Years of cultural brainwashing?

    Not that I want to relive the war of Northern Aggression or start a flame war here... :evil: :evil: :evil: :neener:
    CT
     
  10. neoncowboy

    neoncowboy Member

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    How totally judgmental.

    We might also have a personal mission statement that does or does not include taking on the responsibility of using lethal force (or other force that could escalate to lethal force) for the purpose of defending someone who didn't think to prepare to defend themselves.

    There are a lot of answers to 'what would you do...' and just because you have an answer for yourself doesn't make that the right answer for everybody else.
     
  11. C1PNR

    C1PNR Member

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    What a Bunch of #^*@

    I had something to say to the "sheeple" here, but thought better of it. Not going to waste my time! :cuss:
     
  12. 357wheelgunner

    357wheelgunner Member

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    That chick and her ex con boyfriend deserved to be shot for conducting themselves that way. There is no excuse for women to act like men, and no excuse for a big boy like that to suckerpunch cellphone boy.

    What would I have done?

    Lets say I was cellphone boy, and some psycho chick is yelling at me. I prolly would just walk away and let her have her way, what else can you do? Fight a girl? If I did argue with the girl, and her big boyfriend came, well all hats are off. I would glady put a bullet or a blade into a man before taking a beating like that poor guy did.

    As a bystander, what can you do? The phrase "You crapped your bed, now you sleep in it." applies here. If cellphoneboy was not prepared to take down that ogre, then he should not have got into it with his girlfriend. Mayhaps this will teach people to prepare for things like this? I spend too much time working on my partial arts and shooting skills to go to jail or get AIDS (punch a guy in the mouth, break his teeth, cut your hand, his blood gets on your cut) to save some ill-prepared weakling from taking a beating.

    You guys can flash your CCW badge and start shooting in a restaurant, or spray OC and blind/burn every person in there (more lawsuits) temporarily, or get into a fight with that ogre. No way you walk away from that unscathed. You'd pay legally or physically somehow.

    If I had been there, in fantasy land I would've loved to begin blasting away at that jerk and his testosterone pumped girlfriend. Those pieces of trash have no place in society. However this is real life and we've sat by while American culture slowly degrades, a few more decades and the US will be like Europe. Men can no longer act like men, and very few women act like women should. Litigation is out of control. This is so rediculous, it makes my head hurt. I hate it but it is now a self-destructive idea to help another person in need.

    Sorry but my responsibility to my family far outweighs my responsiblity to help someone get out of the hole they dug themselves into.
     
  13. bbrown609

    bbrown609 Member

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    I am not a huge guy, but I am big enough (6'1, 225lb) that I don't scare easily. In my earlier years (when I was younger and dumber), I probably would have stepped toe to toe with the guy and hoped I was quicker than he, and I could keep him from grabbing me. I have learned a lot since then, and I am a hell of a lot slower than I used to be. I am now a high school administrator in a large high school in a very poor area. Over the past few years, I have had to get involved in altercations with some very large individuals in an effort to break them up. What I have learned is that you can usually pick your spots to alleviate some of the danger. I usually get the guy (or girl) from behind and put them in some kind of submission hold. This catches them off guard and doesn't allow them to see enough of me to stage a defensive move. With the big guy in the tape, I would not have grabbed him, but a timely, hard kick to the side of his knee would have toppled him. This could have been done while he was pounding the other guy. Another suggestion would have been a huge hit from behind to his eardrum. If either blow was delivered the individual would then need to keep pounding or get the hell out of there. I say this not to profess that I am some kind of tough guy, but to let people know that there are ways to deal with bigger individuals. Although I do encourage carrying of a weapon, there are times when one may find themselves without. At times like these, people should know some basic self defense moves.
     
  14. Texian Pistolero

    Texian Pistolero member

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    I can't get the video to work, but one thing that always bugs me is some moron using a cellphone while standing in line.

    Whether they think so or not,

    they are inconveniencing others. Right or wrong,the cellphone usage may have contributed to el chubbos sense that she could cut in front of him.


    The problem is, you are trying to use less than lethal on a big guy. That's an oxymoron. i'm a big guy, but over 50, and I really don't have any guaranteed way to take this guy out without killing him. And I'm not gonna do that.

    I could easily blast his knee, but, now I'm in jail, and out at least $200 K in lawyer, damages, and ending his potentially promising NFL career.

    I could choke him out, but I've got a feeling this dude has a whole more real street experence than I do.

    I guess, if I saw the beating go On and On, I might step in.

    Okay, just got the unedited version. Well, I'm not really sure that cell phone boys gene pool needs to get passed on to the next generation.

    Still talking when you got people screaming at you?

    And we still don't have the actual words.

    Part of the wussy world is that we can say ANYTHING and other people have to take.
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2005
  15. tusk212

    tusk212 Member

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    After the second or third punch it elevated from a fight to an attempt to due permanent damage to cell boy in my mind. I would have had to step in somehow. If i would have been with my brother ( which i usually am) we would have stepped in and stopped it( i showed him the video and we agreed). if alone, i would have drew on him. Granted my brother and i are fairly large gentlemen.
     
  16. JShirley

    JShirley Administrator Staff Member

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    Always humorous to me when people- well, some men act like women are less a threat just because of gender.

    I'm equal opportunity, baby. I'll use whatever level of force I deem necessary regardless of sex, color, religion, or "orientation".

    I've met women that could have gone through linebackers without breaking a sweat. No, that's not hyperbole. I really have. Yes, some of them could have gone right through me, too.

    When evaluating a threat, data such as size, condition, and attitude are important. Gender is NOT.

    John
     
  17. flatdog

    flatdog Member

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    The actions by the people in the video are predictable. No one who contemplates interjecting themselves into this drama should be surprised by what happened.

    All the warning signs were present.

    The man and woman are a team. They are both powerful,arrogant, and dangerous people who experience has taught that intimidation usually gets them what they want.

    If that fails they move straight to physical violence, without missing a beat. They have done this or something very much like it before, with great success.
    It ain't their first rodeo.

    They could very well have been "riding 4 deep", in which case there would have been two more like them outside. Predators have friends too.

    It is not reasonable to expect either of them (who will both come at the same time) to react to verbal commands, pepper spray, empty hand techniques or gunfire by the immediate cessation of hostilities.

    For instance. What do you do with the woman while you choke the man into submission? Or vice versa.

    Mr. cell phone had an alligator mouth on a rabbit butt. He took a big stab at the Darwin Award. Lucky for him he only made Honorable Mention. He gave no thought to endangering other people who just wanted a pizza, and had no stake in salving his bruised ego.

    I don't expect this post will change minds. Just wanted to have my say.


    flatdog
     
  18. johnnymenudo

    johnnymenudo Member

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    ALHunter,

    Something you said has me confused. You give reasons why you would not get involved and would probably retreat. I can't fault you for that if that is the way you feel, but then you go on to say shame on the 5 or 6 men standing there. I don't know what assumptions to make from that, but either you have a different set of standards for yourself, or that you are a woman and feel that the men should have handled it. Can you elaborate?

    JM
     
  19. Walt Sherrill

    Walt Sherrill Member

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    This one is tougher than it looks. A well-placed chair upside the head of the big guy might've made more sense than a handgun. Or a blow with something stout that might break an arm or leg...

    Under our law (here in NC), the use of lethal force wasn't really justified...

    There was an off-duty cop in the discussion, and he would certainly be justified, trained to do so and, perhaps OBLIGATED, to act.

    The rest of you civilian folks who say you couldn't live with yourself if you didn't act (and, implicitly, pull your weapon and shoot the rabble) may be right, and I respect the good will and good intentions behind those comments -- but the arguably inappropriate use of lethal force might have left you bankrupt and in jail. And you and your family would have hard time living with that, too.

    I don't know WHAT IN HELL I'd do, in a case like that, but just saying I'd step up and shoot the guy doesn't make sense. While the intentions are good, and the motives are admirable, I would argue that until you're actually facing BEAR yourself, talk is cheap. Had he pulled a knife, for example, the picture becomes less murky.

    I also hope I don't have to find out how I'll behave in this type of situation, but in the case we're discussing here, I think I'd be looking for something to break an arm or leg with... Or two or three -- as I wouldn't expect the girl friend to stay out of the fray.
     
  20. johnnymenudo

    johnnymenudo Member

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    OK since I replied here is what I would do. I would back out the door and call 911 - once I was sure I wouldnt get ambushed from behind I would make some noise and try to distract the guy from beating the guy. I would probably yell "hey stop that - the police are coming" if the guy turned his attention to me, fine because I know I can outrun him. I probably wouldn't want to get into it with the big guy in a closed quarters like that since it is hard to maneuver and you don't know who is all on his side and what they are capable of. The guy on the ground is at risk of being killed, but using lethal force is not a "no brainer" here. Too many risks to just do it.

    If he pulled out a knife and was about to stab the guy or if the guy was unconcsious and still getting beaten, I would be prepared to use lethal force.

    JM
     
  21. chopinbloc

    chopinbloc Member

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    just because you may be justified legally in using deadly physical force, doesn't mean it's a good idea. this right here is another reason i believe an asp is a much more effective (and satisfying) intermediate means of force. after the second punch this does of course become a serious threat to the jerk with the phone and responsible people will probably feel compelled to do something. i don't blame the guys for standing around; i wouldn't take on that rhino without weapons either. but i carry, all the time. so i would probably lay into him with the asp as fiercly and violently as i could - and although i wouldn't admit it in the statement to the police, with a guy that size i'd be aiming for joints and exposed bone like the shin. the only reason i would feel confident in taking after him with my magic wand (ooooh, electroless chrome, purty) is because i also carry two handguns. yes, i know exactly how much legal and physical danger i would put myself in, but if we want a better world, we have to stop complaining about how much it sucks and do something about it.
    i'm sure most of you have read this but if not, it is definitely worth your time: http://www.catb.org/~esr/guns/sheep.html
     
  22. TonyB

    TonyB Member

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    This is a super tough call......you guys in Texas could get away with poping this a-hole....sadly us NYers would end up in jail......we'd be at LEAST sued by everyone who ever knew the ex-con.let's face it in reality there are few good options here.Most likly I'd be yelling for the guy to stop...and using MY cell to call 911..if the guy turns his attention to me..all bets are off ,I'm not being beat to death in a freakin' pizza joint.....He'd be a reciepiant of the Mozambeke drill........of course I'd still be getting sued and probably end up in jail....... :(
     
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