Starting and Seating Bullets Straight, Effects of Crooked Bullet

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Hartkopf

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I'm only two weeks in to reloading and seemed to have found my first mistake. I flared my 45 ACP cases very little in an effort to make the brass last longer but this made starting the bullet straight a bit trickier. I'm sure that when starting some of them, they were not perfectly straight. Then after several more rounds were assembled, I noticed a faint case bulge only on one side. I did not like the looks of that at all, signaling that the bullet must not be straight in relation to the brass.

From that point on I started the bullets much more carefully and pressed them in slightly and then rotated the cartridge 180 dgs in the shell holder before finishing the press and crimp all the way.

I did not do a good job of separating what I knew was straight or crooked and it is not easy to quickly see the difference now. (Note to self to be more organized.)

The loads are Berry's 230 plated RN, 5.3 grains Bullseye, 1.262 OAL.

When shooting my newbie reloads, everything was great and accuracy was not bad. Easily staying in a six inch circle at 7 yards off hand, nothing special, similar to how I shoot factory ammo out of my Glock 21. The problem started after aprox 150 rounds. Many shots were hitting 4 to 5 inches low.

I unloaded the gun and inspected the barrel as best I could in the dimly lit indoor range, nothing obvious. I don't think I seated every single bullet perfectly in a run and then seated 50 in a row crooked.

Could the crooked bullets have fouled just one area of the barrel and caused the shots to be low from that point on?

The water wasn't muddy enough so I shot a full magazine of factory Federal HST and a full magazine of factory Remington Golden Saber and they were all centered with better accuracy than I normally shoot the ball ammo.:confused: More mud was needed so I shot a magazine of Factory Winchester ball. Low again.:confused::confused:


Anybody have wisdom for a newbie?
 
Shoot off a rest to determine your accuracy. I would guess the differences in powder and velocity in different ammo (and your reaction to such) are causing a bit of flinch if you are shooting low.

You should flare enough to easily place the Berrys bullets. Sounds like a touch more flare is needed. You won't hurt the cases as long as the flare is not extreme.
 
Could the crooked bullets have fouled just one area of the barrel and caused the shots to be low from that point on?
Highly unlikely IMO.
Prolly trigger control.
6" at 7 yards is not a test of your ammo or gun, it's a test of the trigger puller.
When you can keep quality factory ammo in a group of 5" or less at 25 yards, then you can compare that to your handloads.
RN bullets are very easy to seat a little crooked in the 45 auto.
You can roll the loaded rounds on a smooth surface and see wobble when they are tilted.
The Lyman 'M' expander die is very popular in 45 auto because it makes a little ridge inside the case mouth that the bullet can align itself with before seating, a big help in keeping them straight.
A seating die that matches the bullet shape is also a big help.
One of the reasons SWC and TC bullets are so popular in 45 auto is they provide a better shape for your seating die to push on, resulting in more consistent alignment.
 
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accuracy was not bad ... six inch circle at 7 yards off hand ... Many shots were hitting 4 to 5 inches low.

Anybody have wisdom for a newbie?
Most full-size and many compact pistols are capable of 1" groups at 7 yards, 2" at 10/15 yards and 3"-4" at 25 yards with decent ammunition.

More accurate pistols and ammunition are capable of sub 2" groups at 25 yards. These are accuracy references I use for my pistols and load development.

Your shots hitting 4-5 inches low at 7 yards are likely from trigger/grip input and pushing down in anticipation. Try dry firing while watching the front sight. If your front sight moves/jerks when the hammer/striker is released, your shots will reflect on target.

To improve your accuracy, read this thread starting with these two posts:

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-help-me-speed-up.824618/page-4#post-10902444

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-help-me-speed-up.824618/page-4#post-10902245

BTW, Welcome to THR.

In no time, we'll have you shooting accurate groups and loading consistent rounds.
 
Thanks for the input guys but I dry fire with no flinch and I work a great deal on trigger control. I'll admit I do need more time behind the gun but I started the session off with centered groups, no pulling. Seems strange I would be shooting fine (and centered) for a hundred rounds, then start pulling low, then go to warm factory ammo to center my groups.

I know I'm not a great shot but there was a distinct pattern when ammo was changed. Once my reloads went to crap there was absolutely no way to center the group. Factory hollow points were easy to center. I really think it's a problem with my ammo or barrel ammo combination.
 
Then stagger the rounds in the magazine (Factory, your reload, factory, etc.) and see if you can replicate the 4"-5" drop.

When I did premium factory JHP vs my lighter target match load comparison at 7-10 yards, difference in POI was less than 1 inch.
 
LiveLife thanks. That's a good idea but I'll have to try it after 100+ rounds since my reloads start with centered groups. I'll try this tomorrow and post an update.

Anybody have experience with Berry's plated bullets in a Glock barrel? Berry's say they are good to go but.....
 
I found an old thread where it was recommended a little more flare be given to a case that will receive a plated bullet. Maybe with my lack of flare I sheared most of the plating off of the bullet and have been shooting partial lead bullets in my Glock barrel?
 
I think it’s less likely to be non-concentricity/runout than bullet base damage. Or big variations in your powder charge. How are you dispensing powder?
 
I think it’s less likely to be non-concentricity/runout than bullet base damage. Or big variations in your powder charge. How are you dispensing powder?

Lyman powder measure (not sure of model number at the moment).
I'm new and OCD so I weighed often, every 5th throw or more. Shooting for 5.3 grains, I allowed 5.4 but trickled 5.2 up to 5.3.
 
Crooked seated bullets don't have much effect in a typical handgun at typical handgun range (25 yards). See the article below where that was tested.

https://americanhandgunner.com/gear/exclusive-crooked-seated-bullets-and-accuracy/

I wouldn't draw too many conclusions from such a limited test.

They only test one caliber with jacketed bullets, in a couple of guns that aren't that accurate to begin with.
A good 1911 should do 2" at 50 yards in a Ransom rest, not 25.

No test with lead or plated bullets, no test in 45 auto.

A pretty thin article.
 
A good 1911 should do 2" at 50 yards in a Ransom rest, not 25.

Few 1911s will do 2" at 50 yards. It would require a match grade bullseye gun for that type of performance.

As noted in the previous post, crooked seated bullets don't have much effect in a typical handgun at typical handgun range. Most of us are probably shooting typical handguns, not custom built bullseye guns.
 
Thanks for the input guys but I dry fire with no flinch and I work a great deal on trigger control. I'll admit I do need more time behind the gun but I started the session off with centered groups, no pulling. Seems strange I would be shooting fine (and centered) for a hundred rounds, then start pulling low, then go to warm factory ammo to center my groups.

Its common to try and beat the recoil by pushing the muzzle down without being aware of it. In a revolver I like to load someones gun for them and skip a couple of chambers. If they are trying to beat the recoil you will see them plunge the muzzle down when they get to an empty chamber.

On an auto you would have to have someone load your gun for you and not tell you if its loaded or not and see if you try to beat the recoil.

And your crooked bullets should shoot a whole lot better than 5" at 7 yards. You need some serious practice. We all did this. I really learned to shoot by practicing with an air gun, in my case a Crosman 1377 pump pistol. The gun was accurate and the trigger terrible. If you could shoot a good group with that gun you could shoot a good group with any accurate pistol or revolver. And practice was cheap and could be done right in the back yard.
 
I agree I need practice. Maybe I subconsciously lost focus and started pulling, and somehow cleared my mind when I went and got my carry ammo, and then started shooting good again. I will not argue with you guys that I’m always stone cold “on.” This situation just seemed strange but there are multiple variables so I shot again today.

All of my reloads shot from this point on were straight. I could not duplicate the problem today. I shot a group early in the session and a group after 200 rounds, all with my straight reloads, from a rest, and the low problem did not happen. Not to the extent of the last time. 44A5C244-6FE2-488E-B022-9A647A077FE1.jpeg
 
I’ve been using some leftover targets that I guess are pellet gun targets? The largest circle is about 5.2 diameter. Here are some of my off hand groups with my straight reloads. Definitely nothing special but also not 4 to 5 inches low like last time. Both of these were shot well over 100 rounds into the session. Everything shot from 7 yards. 7D59F80E-D288-410A-B237-6F0B38E159EC.jpeg
 
When a shooter who shoots groups like this:

EEgYfv6.jpg

or this:

sZLvG4e.jpg

tells me crooked bullets radically move the point of impact in a pistol, I will believe it. But no one is all that worried, sight alignment and trigger pull are vastly greater error sources than bullet run out in a pistol.

At least in a hand held pistol. Those targets were shot one handed, like what this guy is doing

hi4HdlC.jpg
 
Thanks Slamfire. My inexperience is definitely something to address and everybody has. The reason I started this thread was to find a reason for factory carry ammo shooting normal after my reloads went down hill. When I couldn’t hit the target I changed ammo and the groups were back on center. At that point I was sure I screwed up the reloads somehow. Or the barrel became fouled in some strange way do to my reloads. Anything is possible. Might have just been me. I know I’m not a very good shot at this point and I’m working hard to fix that.
 
Thanks Slamfire. My inexperience is definitely something to address and everybody has. The reason I started this thread was to find a reason for factory carry ammo shooting normal after my reloads went down hill. When I couldn’t hit the target I changed ammo and the groups were back on center. At that point I was sure I screwed up the reloads somehow. Or the barrel became fouled in some strange way do to my reloads. Anything is possible. Might have just been me. I know I’m not a very good shot at this point and I’m working hard to fix that.

Practice, practice, practice. Shooting is a skill and we are all still working on it. I have been shooting Bullseye Pistol for around five years now, and I am only just starting to shoot Expert scores with the 45 ACP. Pistols are incredibly hard to shoot well. There are those who think they are just great, but the standard I am going to offer is ten shots within four inches at 50 yards, standing, with one hand. Putting ten shots inside four inches at 25 yards is extremely difficult when you have to get five shots off within 10 seconds, or 20 seconds. Last Regional I went to, this Gentleman shot a 100-10X timed fire with his 22lr

zbfI7CI.jpg

And an announcement was made over the PA and the line cheered him. It is great to shoot next to really good shooters and see what can be accomplished. The great's set standards that we all aspire to meet. And it is not easy, though that is not apparent till years later.

Best of luck. Keep shooting, at somepoint you will start to trust your hold enough to figure out it is the ammunition and not you. But it takes work.
 
I appreciate everybody's help on this!:thumbup: I'm not blowing off good advice and also not trying to beat a dead horse but I have one last question just so I will be educated on the matter.

What typically happens to accuracy when a pistol barrel gets lead fouled or copper fouled? (been shooting Golden Sabres too so is brass fouling a thing?) Any pattern or just groups that open up?
 
If I didn't shake so bad shooting bullseye, my targets would look like that. And I use two hands!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bill
 
I load 200 grain LSWC for use in bullseye shooting and a lot of times the bullet is canted starting up into the seating die but they always straighten up and seat like they should. I use a pistol case gauge so I know they're straight.

Bill
 
I've never had a pistol get copper fouling bad enough to have a noticeable effect on the target. Lead fouling can cause groups to open up dramatically and can cause problems in as few as one magazine. My first attempt at shooting cast bullets in a 9mm looked like a shotgun pattern at 10 yards. After a couple years of experimenting, buying the correct tools, and practice I can shoot decent group at 25 yards.
 
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