Starting to collect.Values question

[lilguy]

How does one determine the value of C/R acollectables. I went to Cabelas and found a Remington 1903 Springfield $1199.00 and a Saginaw M1 Carbine $1799.00.. Both on Sale. 10% sale tax and $50.00 gun tax to Cook County. I will have to travel out of state to get mags for the M1. Offered 3 grand cash, no deal. I’m new to C/R collecting do I worry about value or just buy what I find interesting. I live in Illinois where gun ownership becomes more difficult as time passes. Thanks all.

 

[Ohen Cepel]

Hard to say and condition is huge.

Good place to start is gunbroker, advanced search (need an account) and look at completed auctions which actually sold. Just a start point though as I think GB is often high.

Hit gunshows in the area (better yet, out of your state) since you should be able to buy C&R stuff (so long as the seller accepts it).

 

[Riomouse911]

Lots of things to look out for if you are starting down the path of collecting milsurps. It is fun, and sure can be addictive, but be sure to do research on the specific guns desired traits, and areas where forgery or deceit is common, before you buy something that comes back later to be a bust.

There is a ton of good reference material that is out there along with selling prices on GB and other auction/sales sites.

Good luck!

Stay safe.

 

[Dave DeLaurant]

Depending on your region of Illinois, your state is home to both Rock Island Auctions and Simpson's. Road trip?

You can learn a lot about pricing and condition by seeing lots of different specimens and prices at one time.

 

[BreechFace]

A lot depends on your scope of collecting. By your interests in a M1 Garand and M1 Carbine I would surmise that your are interested in WWII firearms. If that is the case then there are still a few very good buys out there for military collectables, just not near as many as 15-20 years ago. I would focus on what is still available in quantity right now before they start getting scarce. The Swiss rifles can still be had for around $500 and are probably the best buy right now for what you get in condition for price, it will not be so in the coming years as they dry up. They have really nice triggers, and with good ammo are very accurate. Mosins can still be found for $300 or so, with Finnish Mosins demanding $600-700. Italian Carcano's can be found for very cheap $200, they are however most in pretty poor shape when buying from a C&R dealer that's uncrating them. One can find French MAS's for $800-1000, and they are in very good condition and is a very nice cartridge to shoot. Lee-Enfields are still pretty plentiful, but the condition varies widely due to the extreme use they had in the war. I kind of categorized current pricing in my mind, I'm probably off on some but should give you a starting point on WWII long arms. I'm not as knowledgeable on handguns of WWII, there are also shotguns that were used as well.

For me I would look at Atlantic Firearms for the Swiss rifles, they have the 1896/11 and 1911 on sale right now for $480. Looks like they have some well used Steyr M95's for $200.

[$*] Swiss 1896/11
[$*] Swiss 1911
[$$] Swiss K11 (carbine version of the 1911)
[$] Steyr M95 Mannlicher (early war use, phased out pretty quickly)
[$$$] German K98
[$$*] German Gewehr 98 (early war use, phased out)
[$$*] Swedish Mauser M96
[$$] French MAS-49
[$$] Lee-Enfield SMLE
[$*] Mosin Nagant M1891/1930
[$$] Mosin Nagant M1944 Carbine
[$$*] Finnish Mosin Nagant
[$$$$] Swedish Ljungman
[$$-$$$] Japanese Arisaka (6.5mm, 7.7mm) (extra $ for intact chrysanthemum)
[$$$] American M1903A3
[$$*] M1 Garand
[$$$] M1 Carbine
[$] Italian Carcano (6.5mm, 7.35mm)

 

[1948CJ2A]

Hard to say and condition is huge.

Good place to start is gunbroker, advanced search (need an account) and look at completed auctions which actually sold. Just a start point though as I think GB is often high.

Hit gunshows in the area (better yet, out of your state) since you should be able to buy C&R stuff (so long as the seller accepts it).

I agree, GB can be a point of reference but only if you're looking at the final sale price and not all the outrageous Buy-it-now asking prices.

Once upon a time I used to buy the annual books with the values in them. I think maybe it was Gun Digest or something similar. That's been over a decade though.

Lots of factors determine the final transaction amount of a particular firearm. The largest factor IMO is whatever the buyer is willing to pay.

 

[1KPerDay]

Personally I've never seen a good deal on a used rifle or shotgun at Cabela's. I'd branch out and search other dealers. Those prices aren't out of line these days but those rifles better be in great condition, and I'm betting they probably aren't. Otherwise Cabela's would be asking $2K for th 1903 and like $3K for the M1 Carbine. They're loony.

 

[vanfunk]

I have gotten a couple of good deals at Cabelas but it’s rare. Sadly, I passed on an all matching BYF 43 k98k at a more than good price and it was gone when I went back for it the next day. I bought a superb 1942 No.4 MK1 Enfield and a Winchester 1917 .30-06 there for way under fair market. With that said, caveat emptor.

Lilguy, as others have mentioned, we need A LOT more information to determine whether the rifles you’re looking at are good buys. A Remington 1903 would be an A1 and can be excellent shooters and collectables, but for $1200 it should be very, very nice indeed.

A Saginaw M1 carbine could very well be worth what they’re asking but again we’d need more info - carbines are often put together from a bucket of parts that, while eminently functional, do not represent the most valuable iteration of the original manufacturer’s production. M1 carbines are a deep rabbit hole to go down. At my local Cabela’s, if it is a representative sample, M1 carbines there are typically of the “beater” variety and colossally overpriced. Personally I don’t think you’ll find a good buy, or much less a deal, on an M1 Carbine from Cabela’s.

Can you go back, take detailed pictures with a good phone, and post them for us? Take macro photos of all the rollmarks on the metal and any cartouches on the wood.

Chances are that these are not good deals, but we need to know a lot more in order to be sure.

 

[tark]

The two most important factors to any collector are these: Condition and originality.

Condition describes the percentage of the original finish remaining. The C-96 and the Type 14 Nambu in my collection are both 99% guns. They have 99% of their original finish remaining. Originality is self explanatory. Does the gun have all of its original parts? A high conditioned all original gun will bring the top prices for that type and model of gun. These two are unfired after leaving the factory. Both of them are gooped with cosmoline on the inside. The Mauser was made in 1913 and the Nambu in 1935. Its pre-war quality makes the C-96 look ugly.

Collecting military surplus guns can be a real snake's nest. High conditioned and all original guns can bring very high prices... if you can find one. Most of them have been through rebuilds and refurbishments. This was/is standard practice for all armies. Because almost all of the parts are interchangeable on a military weapon, the standard arsenal rebuild consisted of stripping hundreds of guns down to their respective piles of parts. The parts were gauged for serviceability and the guns were then re-assembled.

Depending on your region of Illinois, your state is home to both Rock Island Auctions and Simpson's. Road trip?

Simpson's ( aka Collector Guns ) are in Galesburg. Getting online and checking out their inventory can give one hours of entertainment. It can also give a good idea of the values of different guns. They have thousands of guns in inventory.

Dave, I think R.I.A. Auction Co. flew the coop. They still have a building in Milan, but I think they run their auctions out of their new Texas address.

Guess they got sick of Illinois' gun laws.

 

[Dave DeLaurant]

Dave, I think R.I.A. Auction Co. flew the coop. They still have a building in Milan, but I think they run their auctions out of their new Texas address. Guess they got sick of Illinois' gun laws.

Sad, but I can certainly understand that!

Remember when California was home to Weatherby and the original Golden State Arms surplus house, among many others?

 

[CowboyTim]

Wether it's guns of guitars, I have bought some, sold some for a nice proffit down the road...they just keep going up in value if they are worthwhile(if nothing else as a fuction of inflation, which is actually the basis and main driver of our economy since abandoning hard backing of our currency).

 

[lilguy]

Appreciate all the input, found several M1 carbines at a LGS in the 7-800.00 range, so Cabelas seems to be much higher priced on some collectables.

This is the 1903 Springfield / Remington.

 

[lilguy]

Misfire

 

[mgmorden]

How does one determine the value of C/R acollectables. I went to Cabelas and found a Remington 1903 Springfield $1199.00 and a Saginaw M1 Carbine $1799.00.. Both on Sale. 10% sale tax and $50.00 gun tax to Cook County. I will have to travel out of state to get mags for the M1. Offered 3 grand cash, no deal. I’m new to C/R collecting do I worry about value or just buy what I find interesting. I live in Illinois where gun ownership becomes more difficult as time passes. Thanks all.

If you spend enough time perusing the web (Gunbroker mainly) and gun/pawn shops, you'll eventually get a good idea of the general value of things. If it has some special provenance that can sometimes increase value but unless YOU'RE familiar with whatever they're saying is boosting the value don't get taken in by a story.

And at the end of the day knowing the values is just a way to make sure you don't overpay for something. At the end of the day only buy things you like and don't buy things you don't.

 

[Bazoo]

My opinion is you should buy the ones you find interesting regardless of price, but shop for a deal when you can. But, if you find a specimen you like and its a bit over priced just buy it and don't worry about the money as you'll regret not getting it when you had the chance.

 

[CCSIG]

Value takes two forms- what you are willing to pay, and what you will ask for in the event that you later sell. It's very difficult, regardless of what the experts say, to put a fair price on something that you want but hardly ever actually get a chance to buy. I love Smith and Wesson revolvers, but many of the ones that I really want are just not available. When you do come across one of those, it's a case of "pay the nice man what he's asking" or start looking all over again. I think that Bazoo has it right- pay as little as possible but get what you want.

 

[MachIVshooter]

Cabelas seems to be much higher priced on some collectables used guns.

There, fixed it! Other than the rare instance in which a manager makes a mistake in valuation, Cabela's is routinely 20-50% over realistic market value on used firearms.

Like others said, condition and originality are everything with collectible firearms, milsurp or otherwise.

Unfortunately, you are stepping into the milsurp game about 20 years too late, where basic Mosin-Nagants and Yugo SKS carbines that were well under $100 are now $300-$500. In the early to mid 2000s, I was buying Carcanos, Mausers, Arisakas and MAS rifles for little more than a nice dinner & drinks for 2 costs today. In 2003, a No. 4 Mk I Enfield set me back $179. I gave $300 for an SVT-40 in 2006. $100 for a 1903-A4 barreled action with good condition stock and $125 for a nice M1893 7x57 Spanish Mauser in 2007. $225 for a Type 39 Arisaka with mum, dust cover and bayonet in 2008.

 

[Jim Watson]

Unfortunately, you are stepping into the milsurp game about 20 years too late,

More nearly 60 years too late, never mind pre-inflation prices; before GCA 1968 you could have your surplus guns and ammo sent directly to you.

 

[tark]

More nearly 60 years too late, never mind pre-inflation prices; before GCA 1968 you could have your surplus guns and ammo sent directly to you.

Right you are, Jim!! It is 4:30 AM on thanksgiving Day here. When I wake up I will post something that will make us all howl in anguish... a page from a pre 68 American Rifleman... A mail order surplus page...

 

[redneck2]

Right you are, Jim!! It is 4:30 AM on thanksgiving Day here. When I wake up I will post something that will make us all howl in anguish... a page from a pre 68 American Rifleman... A mail order surplus page...

Yeah. But you’re wanting to go back to 1966 with 2024 dollars. In 1966 I was helping bale hay in 90+ degree weather for $10 a day IF the farmer was generous. Some only paid 75 cents an hour.

When I got out of Purdue Engineering in 1973 my first job paid $10,800 a year To start. When I bought my first house the payment was $210 a month and I was terrified I wouldn’t be able to afford it

 

[tark]

Here is a page from the American Rifleman circa 1966. Mail order baby! Just include a statement that you are 21 years old. The price on the M-1 isn't visible but I think it was around $ 89.

 

[Ed]

I was buying non import M1 carbines in the early 2000s for $350-$400. Remember woolens Danes from the CMP for $299?

So you know...you can get on cabellas website and search all stores in the US. They will ship it free to your store if you buy it. But like others said, they are usually way overpriced. I find the best deals at pawn shops or small gun stores.