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Starting to get irritated

Discussion in 'Handloading and Reloading' started by Axis II, Nov 13, 2020.

  1. Axis II

    Axis II Member

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    This is really starting to tick me off. I am loading 44mag for a cva/handi rifle single shot with 23, 23.3, 23.6gr IMR 4227, CCI SPP mag and 240gr XTP. I tried crimp, no crimp, playing with charges and all I get is inconsistent crap! Maybe some more roll crimp? I am currently doing about 1/4 turn.



    My press has some flex in it due to the bench. Could this be the problem? Red is 23.3 with no crimp, purple stripe is 23 crimped and purple is 23 no crimp.
     

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  2. whughett

    whughett Member

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    I’m assuming you A: Know the capabilities of the rifle, B; Your own capabilities with the rifle and C: Rifle may just not like any of those combos of powder and bullet. Sometimes the fun is in finding out these things. ;)
     
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  3. beag_nut

    beag_nut Member

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    Just looked at my Lyman Pistol/Revolver reloading manual, and it says the .44Mag "should be well-crimped" to prevent bullet movement. And your load of IMR is right there, too. The people who replied to your other similar thread also gave alert to having a good-enough crimp which would allow full powder burning.
     
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  4. Axis II

    Axis II Member

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    Different gun. This gun shot this combo well last year but this year seems to be crap.

    Maybe I will try H110 if I can find some tonight.
     
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  5. Rule3

    Rule3 Member

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    What distance??
    What die or crimp die??1/4 doesn't' do much. Got a picture of the loaded round.?

    I would try a heavy crimp (never used that powder) If you have H110/W296 or 2400 try those.
    Buy Hodgdon data for a 24 gr, they same amount of powder with H110 get you better performance.
     
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  6. Axis II

    Axis II Member

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    100yards, front and rear bag, cva scout, lee dies using the seater to crimp in a seperate step. I dont have any loaded now because they all got fired. My handi rifle shoots 23.6 with a heavy crimp pretty good. This CVA seems to buckshot everything now.
     
  7. Charlie98

    Charlie98 Member

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    I would probably try a different powder, all else being equal.

    Just FYI, IMR4227 doesn't require a magnum primer, but I doubt that's your problem.
     
  8. Charlie98

    Charlie98 Member

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    Have you/can you recover any of the fired bullets?
     
  9. Blue68f100

    Blue68f100 Member

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    When was the last time you did a good bore cleaning? The reason I ask is I have 1 AR that when the barrel starts getting dirty it starts to open up.

    What has changed since last year? How many reloads on the brass? Different Primer, powder, bullet lots?
     
  10. Walkalong

    Walkalong Moderator Staff Member

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    23.5 Grs IMR 4227 and a CCI primer was very accurate in my Winchester 94. Everything settled in at that charge weight, started at 22.0 IIRC. That's all in the old paper log, I only put the 23.5 in the new digital log so many years ago.
     
  11. Rule3

    Rule3 Member

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    The seater die can seat and crimp. Are you using 4 dies? One to seat and a FCD?
    So if you are using a Lee FCD, I would go at least a 1/2 to 3/4 turn for more crimp. Without a picture it is hard to determine, depends on your set up.
     
  12. tightgroup tiger

    tightgroup tiger Member

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    I would start by slugging the barrel to see what dia it is. Some 44 mag rifles have a little larger bore than the pistols have, like .430-.431 rather than .429.
    When you say "inconsistent crap", what all is inconsistent other than the groups opening up?
    You could try some .431 hard cast, gas checked lead bullets in it, and see if that doesn't close the groups up if you can't slug the barrel,.
    That may indicate something.
     
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  13. Charlie98

    Charlie98 Member

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    ^^^... I was thinking bore to bullet size, too. That’s why I was wondering if he recovered any bullets.
     
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  14. EccentricInTexas

    EccentricInTexas Member

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    I shoot a Ruger Super Black hawk I reload with 2400. I would say use a heavy crimp and if you can chronograph some to see if the velocities vary much. It also may be differences in the internal capacities of the cases causing different velocities. I have not tested any of my 44 mag cases but I know 556 vary widely and that well effect the velocities.
     
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  15. Axis II

    Axis II Member

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    Last week the same gun shot all those loads within 2-3” and now they are all over the place. The gun shoots Winchester 240gr that are .429 2” groups these are .430. I grabbed a pound of H110 to see if it works.
     
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  16. Axis II

    Axis II Member

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    Nope. I planned on shooting some old phone books next week.
     
  17. wbbh

    wbbh Member

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    Try seating the bullet farther out. I have a CVA Hunter in .44 Magnum and it has a really deep throat. Longer OAL improved accuracy (A Lot) and improved consistancy. It's also quite accurate with Nosler 210 grain HP over H110 and Shooters World Heavy Pistol.
     
  18. jmorris

    jmorris Member

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    Have you ever fired any good factory JHP ammunition In it as a “standard”?

    If it shot that well, might be time to test with it again, if it still shoots it well, you know to put your components or process as #1 suspect. If the “standard” shot well and now doesn’t, the rifle, sighting system is more likely the culprit.

    It’s easy to become frustrated in a sea of variables but just by having a “standard” load to test with will cut them in half, fairly instantly. Then methodically narrow them from there.
     
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  19. tightgroup tiger

    tightgroup tiger Member

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    You were shooting the same powder in the same brass with Winchester 240 JHP and the only thing you changed was you went to 240gr XTP bullets and now your groups opened up.
    Is that correct?
    Are the Winchester bullets round nosed JHPs? I think most of them were.
    XTPs are truncated cones.
    Did you change the seating stem in your seating die when you started using the XTPs to something that fits the bullets nose profile?

    Something had to change in your process. If the seating stem doesn't fit the bullets they will be inconsistently seated. They could be a little crooked which won't hurt them at short distances but you may see something at 100 yds like your seeing with your loads.
    I think you said the XTPs were mic'ed at .430 so neck tension shouldn't be an issue unless your already over crimping and loosening your neck tension, which would affect 4227s performance. Not crimping at all would also hurt 4227's performance.

    4227 and H110 both need all the pressure you can get to get them to shine.

    Do you have an ammo check gauge to check your ammo with after loading? If there are any crooked bullets, bulged cases from over crimping, or any anomalies from the loading process, they usually show up in these minimum chamber gauges. Wilson and Lyman both make them.
    I would advise getting a Wilson ammo check gauge and using it.

    Almost all of my marginally defective ammo will still chamber in my guns but that doesn't mean they will be as consistent as properly made ammo is.
     
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  20. Jesse Heywood

    Jesse Heywood Member

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    I agree that you need to troubleshoot your process. And I would not make a powder change until the diagnosis is complete. Too many variables.

    I agree with the use of magnum primers. They help with getting a complete burn with 4227.

    And on your charge. Is your 23.6 charge compressed? 4227 works best compressed and with a heavy crimp. I don't load 44 mag, but 4227 is my favorite powder in 45 Colt.
     
  21. buck460XVR

    buck460XVR Member

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    That would tell me it's not the ammo. Dirty barrel or loose scope/sights or the shooter.
     
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  22. adcoch1

    adcoch1 Member

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    Reading the whole thread makes me think you have a loose sight, or unlikely, your primer or powder is contaminated somehow. Your charge weights are good, seems like you are paying attention to the crimp.
    Typo? Didn't know anyone made small primer 44 mag brass.
    I would go over the process very carefully and make sure the dies are tight in the press and nothing is inadvertently messing you up. Also, if you ever shot 44 spcl in the rifle check the chamber and throat for a carbon or copper fouling ring. Just a few thought...
     
  23. mdi

    mdi Member

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    Well if the ammo hasn't changed, the gun hasn't changed and the barrel is not fouled but clean, the only variable left is the shooter...

    FWIW; an often overlooked aspect of 44 Magnum barrels is SAAMI rifle groove diameter is .431" while SAAMI handgun groove diameter is .429". I've reloaded a lot of 44 Magnums, but didn't care for H110/W296 or other "slow" powders. In my Puma, I got excellent loads with 2400 and Blue Dot...
     
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  24. Axis II

    Axis II Member

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    I miss typed with the whole Spp thing. I was searching for some and had it on the brain. Everything is tight on the gun but I am wondering these loaded now were done on a Lee C press while the first batch was done on a LCT.
     
  25. Axis II

    Axis II Member

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    No the Winchester was factory. The xtp are my handloads.
     
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