STI Spartan or EAA Witness Elite Match instead of CZ?

[ATLDave]

It's hard for me to see how someone who doesn't like a CZ is going to like a Tanfoglio/EAA. I happen to love both, but they are fundamentally very similar. And the Witness is beefier than a CZ, so if lack of slim-ness is your concern, you would do wise to look elsewhere. And if you were looking for the slimest of the EAA's, I believe the Elite Match comes with the thickest grips (the black rubber ones) made, so you'd want to swap those out. I love my Elite Match, but it seems like it might not be a great choice for you.

 

[Martowski]

Agree from what I've heard. I used to own a 9mm Witness about 10 years ago, but I now understand that was on a different frame than current 9mm Witnesses.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

Note too, there is more than one SNIGLE-ACTION TRIGGER* that came installed in the CZ 7B SA models. Hopefully, all that CZ sells now is the newest two-way adjustable metal hammer. They also made a plastic hammer (phased out), and one adjustable ONLY for over-travel.

Be sure, if you buy one, to get the metal one that is adjustable for both take-up AND over-travel. The take-up adjustment is important.

(* that was edited; for some reason, I keyed "HAMMER" when I first posted.)

 

[JDGray]

This is the trigger I was refering to as "Flat"
http://czcustom.com/testproduct-132.aspx

 

[Bozwell]

If you want a SAO gun, the trigger JD linked is an excellent choice.

 

[Martowski]

I've actually read some folks indicating the SAO trigger actually increased their LOP in SA mode and they went back to stock CZ trigger. Any insight into this? Has anyone used the two way adjustable trigger and what does it do to SA LOP and pull weight?

 

[Walt Sherrill]

I've actually read some folks indicating the SAO trigger actually increased their LOP in SA mode and they went back to stock CZ trigger. Any insight into this? Has anyone used the two way adjustable trigger and what does it do to SA LOP and pull weight?

Anyone who wrote that didn't install the trigger properly, perhaps by mis-adjusting the two set screws. If properly adjusted to reduce take-up to a minimum, the two-way trigger has a considerably shorter Length of Pull.

If the gun owner didn't adjust out all of the take-up, the straighter trigger possibly could travel a hair farther than one of the newer sharply-curved triggers. Sounds as though those folks didn't know what they were doing.

(Note: you can't install the SA trigger in DA/SA gun; it won't work. It must be converted to SA, by removing the disconnector. I've always been told that in DA mode, the SA trigger won't reset, but I've never verified that myself. I do have an older plastic SA trigger and DA/SA gun, so I may have to see for myself, one of these days.)

As for trigger weight: that is determined by the hammer/sear interface, whether parts are polished, and the weight of the main spring (hammer spring) used. The trigger itself is simply a lever and has virtually no effect on the pull weight. Some gunsmiths polish the coil hammer spring, and take the harsh edges off of the hammer strut itself, when doing an action job. It all can have an effect.

Some of the aftermarket hammers and sears would be a big improvement over a non-tuned factory SA hammer and sear. Most of these parts are semi-drop in, requiring little or no tweaking.

 

[Martowski]

Thanks Walt. Thinking of a drop in hammer & adjustable sear from CGW; but first need to let the after holiday funds replenish before doing anything.

 

[JDGray]

My SA has the plastic trigger, and the reach is .200" farther than my Compact in SA mode. I want the flat trigger, but dont find the reach to far on the plastic.

 

[schmeky]

As for trigger weight: that is determined by the hammer/sear interface, whether parts are polished, and the weight of the main spring (hammer spring) used. The trigger itself is simply a lever and has virtually no effect on the pull weight

Absolutely correct. Also, I'll throw out a red herring here; with the advent of reduced power FP block springs, the FP block is no longer a detriment to achieving an excellent SA trigger pull. However, it does have a significant affect on the SA trigger reset.

In actuality, the somewhat stiff CZ trigger return spring is a significant player (with hammer hook depth being primary) in a "safe", very light SA pull weight.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

My SA has the plastic trigger, and the reach is .200" farther than my Compact in SA mode. I want the flat trigger, but dont find the reach to far on the plastic.

Is YOUR plastic trigger adjustable for take-up? (That's with a second set screw visible only with the slide off...) If not, you may want to upgrade.

Of course, you might feel that "if it's not broke..." and you'd be right.

Schmeky, who just posted, has a number of interesting alternatives on his website.

 

[JDGray]

Walt,
My trigger only has overtravel adjustment set screw, I did however, slice a pencil eraser to make a "puck", and super glued it to the trigger to eliminate most of the take up slack

 

[SuperBoomTurbo]

While I can't speak for the 'original' CZ's, I do have an Tanfoglio/EAA Witness Stock II in 10mm. The accuracy and build on these is superior to the 'match' series. They're built in Italy on the Gold/Limited large frame platform, the top of the line. Accuracy is phenomenal, even in 10mm, easily the best shooting pistol I've ever owned. DA/SA is smooth and crisp. The SA trigger is by far the better feeling and breaks clean as glass. Mine had a tiny bit of grittiness but went away as it broke in. And the grip? Melts into your hand, like you truly become one with the weapon.

The mags from the factory on the other hand leave something to be desired. I bought mine prior to Mec-Gar coming to the table, but I can say that the replacement of the factory springs with Wolf springs made a HUGE difference. Henning also has reasonably good support for these guns, and I've had lots of satisfied transactions with him.

I'd love an STI, seeing as how they're built about 30 miles from my house, but I'm a 10mm nut and the only one that makes my eyes twinkle is the Perfect 10. I'd have two Stock II's at $870 a piece and plenty left over for toys before ever approaching msrp on it though. Wah wah...

Other than what you listed, I'd thought about going after a CZ-97B, but with the occasional use of CCW thrown into the mix, I couldn't justify the low magazine capacity. (I'm a double stack guy ya know)

 

[GreySmoke2]

I have a Witness Classic Small Frame 9mm, a Witness Elite Stock 1 .45 and a Spartan 9mm. Of the three I like shooting the Spartan the best. Slim grip, accurate, great sights, and with Tripp's Mags extremely rely-able.

Pics for proof
Spartan 9mm

Elite Stock .45

Witness Classic 9mm


Spartan at 7 yards off hand

 

[SuperBoomTurbo]

Greysmoke (or any Tanfoglio owners),
How did you get/keep the checkered straps on your Stock pistol(s) clean? I had mine in the holster ONE DAY and now there's a bit of grime I can't get out between the checkered straps, the rear in particular. I've swabbed and used compressed air at 100psi with no results. Works great everywhere else though!

 

[GreySmoke2]

You dirty boy you...
Really my guns are all range guns (I live in Illinois) I never carry them.
Try Powder Blast or Gun Scrubber and a soft bristle brass brush I would guess. Carful of the wood grips though they are tough solvents on wood.

 

[Martowski]

Thanks Greysmoke; nice looking pistols. How's the trigger pull on your Spartan in relation to smoothness and pull weight?

I'm in IL as well... so obviously these are range guns for me and not carry firearms.

 

[GreySmoke2]

Trigger pulls about 3.5lb pretty smooth, the internals are all STI: Quality!.

 

[SuperBoomTurbo]

Smokey,
As I've shared with a few other Witness enthusiasts, I decided to go the sacrilegious route and sandblast the original finish today, replacing it with a deep black oxide. (Work in progress!)

As I was prepping this morning, among a few spots on the innards of the slide that look like black pits or carbon deposits, I was taking down the frame and found an unusual gap inside the mag well above the mag release. It looks like its supposed to be there, but then again, these evil 10mm gnomes think it might be a crack. Be a doll and remove a grip for me and tell me yours has one too.

My apologies for the thread jack, btw.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

...I was taking down the frame and found an unusual gap inside the mag well above the mag release. It looks like its supposed to be there, but then again, these evil 10mm gnomes think it might be a crack...

I've been following this topic, off and on for years. I've had a 10mm Witness myself. (I've also had both 9mm and .40 versions in the smaller frame, and a couple of .45s in the large frame.)

The ONLY issues I remember hearing about was with the 10mm (and one .45) model, and had to do with SLIDES getting damaged and cracking. I don't remember anything about frames going south.

(That doesn't mean there isn't a "frame" problem with various Witness models, but I don't think such issues were all that common. Getting EAA to do something about a "crack" -- no matter where it was found -- however, seems to have been a problem for most owners.)

 

[railroader]

Smokey,
As I've shared with a few other Witness enthusiasts, I decided to go the sacrilegious route and sandblast the original finish today, replacing it with a deep black oxide. (Work in progress!)

As I was prepping this morning, among a few spots on the innards of the slide that look like black pits or carbon deposits, I was taking down the frame and found an unusual gap inside the mag well above the mag release. It looks like its supposed to be there, but then again, these evil 10mm gnomes think it might be a crack. Be a doll and remove a grip for me and tell me yours has one too.

My apologies for the thread jack, btw.

Isn't that gun wonder finish which is a form of hardchrome? I'm just wondering if it is going to be tough to sandblast?

 

[Walt Sherrill]

Isn't that gun wonder finish which is a form of hardchrome? I'm just wondering if it is going to be tough to sandblast?

It's not hard chrome. It's actually not a FINISH. It's a treatment.

From EAA, with MY underlining added:

The popular Witness line of semiautomatic pistols from European American Armory is now available in Wonder finish from Tanfoglio of Italy. Wonder finish is applied by heat-treating the steel, not plating. It will not separate from the base metal. The hardening process makes the Witness line more resistant to wear, abrasion and corrosion. The Witness line includes the Compact, The Full Size, the P Carry, the P Full Size and the P Compact in a variety of calibers.

Contact European American Armory, P.O. Box 1299, Sharpes, FL 32959, (321) 639-4842, fax: (321) 639-7006, e-mail: [email protected]​

Unless sandblasting takes off a LOT of material, it shouldn't be a problem. The only problem I ever heard of with Wonder finish is that some frames would show discolored spots, most noticeable on the lighter colored units.

 

[tuj]

I have the STI Spartan in 45. It has been a reliable and accurate pistol that has stacked up well when compared with my Les Baer PII 1.5G. I would recommend the Spartan.

I also have an IZH-35m which was imported by EAA and I have not been impressed with their customer service.

On the other hand, I broke the elevation screw for the rear sight on the Spartan (it just broke under recoil one day; I wasn't messing with it) and STI sent me a new one for free within a few days, no questions asked.

 

[wild cat mccane]

hopefully no questions asked. As you said it broke under normal use.

 

[SuperBoomTurbo]

I started working on the finish Thursday, and found that, while tough, it is possible to 'separate' the finish from the base metal It's a little patchy right now, but I've got some better AO on the way to finish it off. The hardest part was the polished parts that are flat, surprisingly enough. The rounded bits such as the dust cover and the grip came off by hand with a fine grit abrasive pad. I don't think the Stock II has wonder finish, though I see it is advertised as such. Could be wrong and occasionally am!

Ah, other question. I was perusing the STI site again and see the Spartan was priced very reasonably, even at MSRP. Mind if I ask what you paid out the door?