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Sticky extraction with Ishapore 2A1 and ZQI 7.62

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by 1KPerDay, Nov 27, 2017.

  1. 1KPerDay

    1KPerDay Member

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    hi,
    I haven't shot this rifle a lot but I did run it in a 3-gun a while back and some ammo ran fine while some didn't. I shot it again today briefly and each of 5 rounds of ZQI had to be pogo-sticked out of the chamber. Primers looked flat but so do all primers I fire through this rifle.

    I then fired 5 rounds of WCC M80 and two cases had sticky extraction but came out manually.

    Ideas welcome. Pic attached of 3 cases: left is WCC fired through M1A, center is WCC fired through Ishy, right is ZQI/ MKE through ishy.
     

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  2. Slamfire

    Slamfire Member

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    The Lee Enfield action is very springy. It is a rear locking action and why the Indians decided to make a 308 version is beyond me. The original 303 British cartridge was a 44,000 psia affair but the 308 Win version is 60 kpsia. Even though it is said the Indians used a higher grade of steel, which is good from a fatigue and yield basis, that does not do much in terms of steel compression. Lets say at these pressures steel, regardless of type, compresses about 0.001" per inch. So, if the locking lugs are a half inch from the bolt face, compression is about 0.0005". But, lets say the locking lugs are four inches from the bolt face, because the action is a rear locker, the bolt is going to compress 0.004". The cartridge case will expand that 0.004" and stay expanded after the pressure drops to zero. The end result, sticky extraction.

    Let me recommend that instead of firing military, surplus military, or commercial ammunition, you reload for this rifle. Try loads at the bottom of the pressure scale, the ones around 40,000 psia, not 60000 psia. I shot thousands of 168 gr Match with 39 grains IMR 4895. I shot this at 100 yard reduced courses and standing and sitting rapid fire at 200 yards. It is accurate, but your Ishapore is not a target rifle anyway and that turkish ammunition does not have a great reputation for accuracy.
     
  3. boom boom

    boom boom Member

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    Have you checked the headspace in this rifle? One of the tricks that armorers and some other folks do to extend the life of Enfields is by fitting a longer bolt head to correct for longer headspace. However, if the receiver's locking surfaces are worn, fitting a longer bolt head is simply staving off the inevitable. You can easily inspect the locking surfaces of your rifle's receiver as they are at the rear after the receiver bridge.

    As Slamfire says above, the basic design of the No. 1 which was followed by the Indian 2a in 7.62 was for a lower pressure cartridge and I suspect, that like Spanish Mausers in 7.62, many of these rifles were carried much and fired little as war reserve and police/paramilitary rifles. Some folks have had good luck with these from their reports but others have not and the degree of wear could be part of that. Reloading at lower pressure levels makes a lot of sense for these rifles for longevity purposes, brass life, and probably accuracy as well.

    You should also carefully clean your chamber thoroughly as every Indian rifle that I saw was thoroughly doused in the stuff--dirty chambers can affect extraction. A rough and/or pitted chamber will also make extraction difficult which results in the dilemma of polishing chambers that may be already oversized or tough extraction from a pitted chamber. Last, but not least, your extractor spring could be worn along with the extractor hook itself . Someone might have the wrong extractor fitted or worse yet altered a .303 extractor to fit as the 7.62 2a does not use the same extractor as the No. 1 due to one having no rim while the .303 is rimmed. (for pix https://www.gunpartscorp.com/gun-manufacturer/smle/no-2a-mkiii-ishapore?page=2) From your pictures, I saw a bit of a nick on the brass rim of the case but it could be an optical illusion--you may want to check your extractor/spring etc. Burrs or a worn/chipped extractor can cause problems in extraction too.
     
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  4. GunnyUSMC

    GunnyUSMC Member

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    I bought my 2A back in 2007 when AIM had them for $99, as did a lot of my friends that collect surplus weapons.
    The biggest problem is the fore stock. A lot of the stocks crack at the rear of the action. I must have repaired 30 of them over the years.
    Your chamber is most likely dirty. It might have some dried cosmoline in it. Just use some 0000 steel wool wrapped on a 22 cal cleaning brush and a section of a cleaning rod. Chuck it up in your drill and polish the chamber with some good gun oil. Oh. be sure to mark the cleaning rod with some tape so that you don't go pass the chamber into the barrel.
     
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  5. zaitcev

    zaitcev Member

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    I'm not buying the steel compression theory, although the numerical argument is compelling on the surface, because a number of .308 rifles were locking with a tilting bolt. The locking shoulder of FN FAL presents exactly the same problem, but works just fine. The high chamber pressure definitely presents all kinds of problems to conversions.
     
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  6. 1KPerDay

    1KPerDay Member

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    I haven't checked headspace as I have no .308 gauges but from what I've read it may not help as these were built to pretty loose tolerances. From what I can tell the bolt head is marked TD then maybe 3 and something to the right of the three... 8 or S maybe. The bottom of the stamping is missing. Extractor and spring look fine.
     
  7. Sunray

    Sunray Member

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    The only 'ZI', there is no 'ZQI', on the Cartridge Collectors head stamp list is from an unknown plant in Zimbabwe. I'd be suspicious of that from the get go.
    MKE is Turkey.
    Most 2A's(made out of better steel than any No. 1 Mk III) don't have the typical musical bolt heads issue. However, that right side primer isn't terribly flat. Isn't NATO spec ammo either. Wouldn't hut to check the headspace though. You can rent headspace gauges with no fuss from ReamerRentals.com, et al. $7 for 3 days.
    "...why the Indians..." Money. The rifles were made as stop gaps while the Indians got their FALs. Mind you, they were issued to cops and game wardens mostly.
     
  8. Sistema1927

    Sistema1927 Member

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  9. Clark

    Clark Member

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    I got my 1966 Ishapore in September 1999 for $80 through Shotgun News, Navy Arms.
    I put a scope on it and shot groups.
    The best groups were with steel case 10 cent surplus ammo.
    I never figure out why.
     

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  10. Slamfire

    Slamfire Member

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    The FAL is well known for case stretching and case breakage. Due to the forces exerted on the bolt, not only does the bolt compress, the receiver stretches. Then of course, the case stretches.

    8euIbcN.jpg

    This worked against the FAL as it required a receiver completely made of high grade steel, and cases broke more than front locking actions. Take a look at the HK91, a front locker (OK, a roller bolt "partially locked") Vorgrimler was able to press in a high quality steel locking insert in a cheap sheet metal receiver. Much cheaper to make. Wanna guess which rifle is still a front line military issue rifle?

    roller-delayed-action.png

    roller1.jpg



    Take a look at Post #10, the author really understood this issue:

    Rear Locking Actions
    https://www.shootersforum.com/gunsmithing/53257-rear-locking-actions.html
     
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  11. GunnyUSMC

    GunnyUSMC Member

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    I just love how people can take a simple question and turn it into a complicated discussion.:confused:
     
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  12. Jackal

    Jackal Member

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    Quite honestly, ZQI 7.62 ammo is utter garbage. It is gravel pit ammo at its best. I've had pierced primers, malfunctions and 6moa accuracy from that crap. Switched to IMI and Freedom Munitions for bulk ammo, its amazing how much better my rifles run on ammo that isnt ZQI bottom of the barrel. All this said, the ZQI 5.56 is fine, runs about the same as Lake City surplus.
     
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  13. boom boom

    boom boom Member

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    Ok, the extractor and spring appear fine.

    Then we have rough/dirty chamber, possible high pressure rounds, or headspace issues. A 7.62 NATO field gauge can tell you whether or not the rifle has exceeded NATO specs but strictly speaking, you are supposed to strip the bolt and bolt head and use finger pressure only to attempt to close the bolt with the gage after thoroughly cleaning the chamber. So I would start there with Gunny's suggestion above. Clean the chamber thoroughly.


    Another way is to measure the stretch in the brass by measuring 5-10 rounds of brass precisely before and after firing with a headspace Comparator (old Stony Point, new Hornady). One imprecise way to determine excessive brass stretch is to make a sharp right angle knife edge on a straightened big paper clip-bend the knife edge end into a short leg so it will fit the in the case neck and drag the short leg from the bottom of the inside of the case to above the case web. If the knife edge catches in a groove then that case head will separate soon.
    You may be stuck with firing cheap ammo with no reloading if the headspace is too great.

    The Ishapore 2a has some of the experts (Peter Laidler and Alan DeEnfield on the Ishapore 2A in a Gunboards Enfield posting on the 2A--apparently there is no agreement about Indian markings on the bolt heads or whether they simply used .303 bolt heads.

    http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?240970-ishapore-2a-7-62-headspace-issue
     
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  14. bfoosh006

    bfoosh006 Member

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    Check the ogive of the bullet as well... If memory serves me... the ZQI / MKE ammo uses a M80 type profile, and might be getting jammed into the lands of the barrel.

    A different bullet profile might help.... something like Fed. AE 150gr FMJ.

    And as mentioned before... thoroughly clean the chamber... I have used a .30/06 chamber brush attached to a section of cleaning rod , wrapped to a snug fit with 0000 steelwool ( won't scratch glass ) and cleaning solvent ... attach to a drill and give it a few spins.

    Be sure to swab the chamber clean after doing so.... it really does make a world of difference.
     
  15. 1KPerDay

    1KPerDay Member

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    Thanks for the ideas. Not sure how bullet contacting the lands would contribute to sticky extraction after firing but I'll clean the chamber as suggested.
     
  16. dh1633pm

    dh1633pm Member

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    .303 headspaces on the rim. .308 headspaces on the shoulder. What applies for .303 does not apply for .308. Is the chamber on the enfield oversized or undersized. I guess with different rifles same caliber a check would be easy.
     
  17. Nature Boy

    Nature Boy Member

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    Boy that’s the truth. Even the brass sucks for reloading.
     
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