Stop accepting blame, stop apologizing, and stop feeling guilty

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Long term mole slips up and is revealed? This question and more on thehighroad tonight!
I'm no mole, just a moderate millennial snowflake gun owner who doesn't see a great number of reasons for making it easy to put lots of bullets downrange. I will admit that this shooting is a massive outlier because Paddock could have passed any conceivable background check or bought a real machine gun instead, and it seems he could have either built one or gotten one illegally if he wanted. I think his use of firearms was part of his plan to escape- he seems to have wanted to live until he realized he was cornered. Historically, law enforcement is better at finding and stopping would-be bombers than shooters, and we thankfully haven't had many kamikazes.
 
I can't even begin to decrypt what you're trying to say here, much less figure out what it has to do with anything I said.

If the bulk of the American people come to think of gun ownership as something people inclined to be conservative, hate most of the things we like, and who are OK with mass shootings; gun rights will be whittled away.
 
If the bulk of the American people come to think of gun ownership as something people inclined to be conservative, hate most of the things we like, and who are OK with mass shootings; gun rights will be whittled away.

No, gun rights will be whittled away if we set a precedent of trading away ANYTHING without a valid, logical reason to do so. There will always be violent crime, and if we feel the need to give up something every time someone gets shot then you can imagine how it's not going to take very long before we have nothing left to give up.

And what happens when all the guns are gone, and violence hasn't decreased, just like we see in Europe and Australia? Then it won't be about guns anymore, but about our right to travel freely, be secure in our property, be free from unreasonable searches, have any semblance of privacy...exactly where does this bullcrap end in your little plan?

I'm no mole, just a moderate millennial snowflake gun owner...

Then you're a hypocrite. You've seen the numbers. France, a country with strict gun control, ranks third in mass shootings. Therefore, if you believe that gun control is the answer, you also must believe that France isn't doing enough in that regard, which means you need to get rid of every gun you own.
 
golly why dont we have a "dislike" button???
It is extremely hard to change the mind of someone who has already made it up. its even harder when that person thinks they are "doing good" for others. i will do what ever i can to stop any of this legislation in its tracks. It's time for a lot of Americans to grow a pair. mass shooting are insignificant compared to other issues, and should be treated like the non-issue they are.
rocket medic, you are ignored.
 
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I will admit that this shooting is a massive outlier because Paddock could have passed any conceivable background check or bought a real machine gun instead, and it seems he could have either built one or gotten one illegally if he wanted. I think his use of firearms was part of his plan to escape- he seems to have wanted to live until he realized he was cornered. Historically, law enforcement is better at finding and stopping would-be bombers than shooters, and we thankfully haven't had many kamikazes.
That’s the most reasonable thing you’ve said. Unfortunately, it blows your entire argument out of the water. You just admitted that none of the actions you want to take would have stopped him. And they won’t stop the next mass shooting either. Or the one after that. I’d say “Heaven forbid” but I’m a realist. It’s going to happen. Btw, 2 kamikazes killed 2,763 on Sept 11th. And hundreds more first responders, firefighters, and police officers have died since then as a result. And they’re still dying.

So your plan is you want, not just yourself, but all of us —>(law abiding citizens)<— who have no propensity for murder of any kind, to give up something that we haven’t even used against someone else? Most of, if not all of us could, and have, passed those background checks Stephen did. So are we just mass murderers waiting for our opportunity?

I really want you to answer this next one.

What happens when the next mass shooting is caused by a guy with a shotgun with a mag extention or a revolver with speed loaders? Hell I could take out at least 11 people with my lever action 44 mag in a matter of seconds. Not minutes. That’s definitely a mass shooting. Should we ban that too?

FYI. Over 50 murders occurred in Chicago last weekend. Why is it you don’t you want to give up your rights for those people?
 
If you didn't advocate for banning box cutters after 9/11, don't advocate banning guns now - it just highlights your hypocrisy.
Pretty much it.

Evil people will always, always figure out ways to commit evil deeds.

Since the dawn of man, the available of lethal weapons was never the cause of homicides, simply the means to commit same.

Those who understand the concepts of freedom and the philosophical foundation of the Bill of Rights accept no blame, see no reason to apologize and feel no guilt. I can't believe someone's even articulating that that's happening on this forum.
 
I do not need a reason beyond fully understanding what the 2nd Amendment is, and is FOR.

However, sure, to answer the less important part of the question: Banning bumpfire stocks would be quite unlikely to be as straightforward as banning items sold as bumpfire stocks. The version of a bill to this effect published at the moment says it bans, "a trigger crank, a bump-fire device, or any part, combination of parts, component, device, attachment, or accessory that is designed OR FUNCTIONS to accelerate the rate of fire of a semiautomatic rifle..."

Think hard about that for a moment. Just how far would such a ban reach into all of our gun safes? Good heavens. A huge number of things could be swept up into that pile. Binary triggers, "Hiperfire" triggers, any trigger that is lighter than ... well, nobody knows how light because ANY semi-automatic trigger can be bump-fired, all sorts of springs, stocks, parts, etc. And even unrelated stuff.

And, to get really into the meat of it, look at the ATF letter on PGO shotguns that have barrels less than 18" long but are still over 26" so are not NFA Firearms. The ATF has set precedent there by saying that if you do conceal one, like by putting it under your long coat, then you've disproved the assumption that this is not a concealable firearm, and that kicks it into the category of "AOWs" under Title II, so you're now a felon.
In other words, what you DO with it matters.

You don't have a device designed to accelerate the fire of your semi-auto rifle? Well, fine, but somebody just saw your "accidentally" double a few shots off a bench testing out the trigger on your AR. That's bump firing. And you just displayed a rifle that accelerated the rate of fire EXACTLY as a bump-fire stock would do. Whoops.

You hear this as a simple thing. You see this as putting the folks at SlideFire stocks to the guillotine, c'est la vie, and all will be well. But that's not how laws are written nor how they are enforced.

You're very right about this... even muzzle devices such as compensators can allow someone to accelerate their rate of fire. BAN THEM TOO! It never really stops, and the slippery slope is indeed slippery, and real.
 
I don't know the final answer, but it certainly shouldn't be acceptance of casual mass murder.

We agree on that point. But, I can tell you that further restrictions on the rights of gun owners isn't going to solve this problem. I deal with violent crime and criminals for a living. These people are rarely law-abiding citizens who acquire their guns legally. The Vegas shooting was an abnormality. It was tragic. It was not my fault, or the fault of any of the guns I own (no matter how scary they might look).
 
Y'all are missing the point....your devices and gimmicks are literally enabling evil people to do more harm than they otherwise could and you're tying the ability to legally possess those devices to the greater RKBA.

If y'all honestly decide to ride the "not one bloody inch" train, you'll slip in the blood of more mass shooting victims eventually and we'll see sweeping bans that go a lot farther than ARs or high capacity magazines or bump fire stocks. Remember that a considerable portion of the organized American gun community is older, whiter and more conservative than the population as a whole, and how do y'all reckon that's going to go for the RKBA when the political pendulum swings back in 3 years? (Because I don't think anyone thinks Trump is a lasting positive influence on the image of conservative politics)

Edit: I mean, we have people on this board honestly wanting Hughes repealed so we can get more real machine guns at lower prices into circulation. Really? Do we want the next John Holmes to literally have a SAW? How about getting the next Paddock a real anti-tank rifle, if we go to the stated goal of repealing NFA34? I mean, anti-vehicle munitions and MANPADS are vital for a robust revolution...

Yes, in fact, the Hughes Amendment SHOULD be repealed. I'd also advocate taking suppressors, SBRs and SBSs off of the NFA. (Though at the risk of raising the ire of the board, I'm OK with the prospect of paying $200 and waiting 12 months to pass go to collect a genuine new Colt M16 or M4, if it means the registry is open...)

The thing is, as has been repeated, the immediate aftermath of something, when emotions are high and reason is clouded, is NOT the time to be making decisions about anything! Now is not the time to be drafting bills and throwing other people under the bus because they own particular inanimate objects YOU don't see a use for. That is the slippery slope, and my ancestors fought a revolution against the most powerful army in the world over 200 years ago because they saw the slope starting to tilt back then.

What we - people in general - seem to not grasp is the fact that evil does exist in the world. And unlike in the movies, it isn't dumb, it doesn't wear a costume to distinguish itself from the rest of us, it doesn't lurk in a creepy mountain-top lair, and it's out to win it's own end-game with as much fervor as those of us on the good side have for stopping it. The thing separating the good from the evil is the adherence to the laws and customs of civilized society. Evil frightens and baffles us because it will never adhere to our laws and standards of conduct.

w-w, who is also a millennial special snowflake, though I'm juuuuusssttt old enough I dislike being called a millennial.
 
What we - people in general - seem to not grasp is the fact that evil does exist in the world.
They don't grasp it or don't want to. People tend to want to fix things, make everything better so they can feel safe.
Accepting, or admitting to themselves, the existence of evil would mean accepting that they can not make it better and we are never safe.
 
They don't grasp it or don't want to. People tend to want to fix things, make everything better so they can feel safe.
Accepting, or admitting to themselves, the existence of evil would mean accepting that they can not make it better and we are never safe.

Most certainly, yes.

Or said another way, these are the risks we face when we live in a free (well, relatively so) society. The existence of evil means that we have the freedom to make that choice, to engage in evil or the love of our fellow human beings, and the low number of mass shootings (which could be in the millions if most of society choose to behave that way) is testament to the fact that people are generally good. I am not a big fan of our species inability to fix every evil, big or small, in this world, but there it is.
 
Pretty much it.

Evil people will always, always figure out ways to commit evil deeds.

Since the dawn of man, the available of lethal weapons was never the cause of homicides, simply the means to commit same.

Those who understand the concepts of freedom and the philosophical foundation of the Bill of Rights accept no blame, see no reason to apologize and feel no guilt. I can't believe someone's even articulating that that's happening on this forum.

Most certainly. If the answer is to ban the dangerous implement or accessory (thereby denying the accountability of the actor), then by now most everything we use on a daily basis would be banned (cars, tractors, jets, chainsaws, kitchen knives, baseball bats...I could go on, but you get the picture) and life would grind to a halt. I try usually to refrain from making reductio ad absurdum arguments in most cases, but this topic calls for it. Your last sentence is a much more eloquent way of stating what I tried (clumsily) to state in post #42 back on page 2 of this thread. Wish that I'd had those words then.
 
Anti-gun cultists want you to use their frame of reference, their terminology, and to bend submissively to their will.

Few things give me more pleasure than to look them in the eye and say, "NO, I REFUSE."

Their parents never told them "no", and when a complete stranger does (and even moreso, a BLACK complete stranger from whom they expect fawning servility), they have a total meltdown. As the saying goes, you'd have to have a heart of stone not to laugh.

I have not one iota of respect for them, and having no respect for them, I have no respect for their "feelings". Having no respect for their "feelings" or how they feel about ME, I have no fear of them. They thrive on fear of lack of social acceptance in THEIR circles. Totally disdaining their approval, they have no power over me.
 
I'm no mole, just a moderate millennial snowflake gun owner who doesn't see a great number of reasons for making it easy to put lots of bullets downrange.

Honestly, that might be part of the perspective issue that's driving our different opinions here. I'm not sure how long you've owned guns, or if you were raised around them. But, if I were taking a wild guess on this, I'll say that you're probably new to gun owning within the past ten years, and perhaps a new generation of gun owner within your family. I think that's significant in these discussions, and here's why:

If you haven't been around guns for a long time, you haven't really had a chance to closely watch the silly legislative cycle play out as it pertains to laws related to the violent action of others. Many of us started out with a notion that the "common sense gun laws" are actually common sense, and with time learn that they really aren't. I'm only about 5 years removed from the Millennial Generation myself, but I did grow up around guns, and started shooting at a very young age (around 5). Strangely, I came from a household that never had guns, and my parents are very politically moderate. My dad wasn't anti-gun, but he'd had a friend die in a hunting accident as a kid, and just never really got into guns. He did buy me my first pellet gun, and with the blessing of my parents, I learned to shoot real guns from my grandfather on my mother's side, and from my best friend's family growing up (who always took me hunting).

Anyway, I've watched the anti-gun nonsense of the mid-1990's play out (the original nationwide assault weapons ban and magazine capacity limit), which wasn't far on the heels of the closure of the machine gun registry. As more and more laws were written, I came to realize how pointless these laws really are. Criminals don't follow the laws, and any law can be easily circumvented by someone who intends to harm others (use Nice, France as an example). I also came to realize that the idea of "common sense laws" is defined only by those who believe no guns should be owned by anyone, and that "compromise" means I give something to them and get nothing in return.

There's an idea coming from the left that seems to suggest that we're always just one good law away from being able to curtail the homicidal urges of evil men. Unfortunately no such legal protection works, and it only takes from those of us who really mean no harm to our fellow man in the first place. In the 80's it was machine guns, in the 90's it was the AWB, in the 00's we saw a big push to continue the AWB at the state level legislature, and now we're seeing an attack on accessories like bump stocks (which really don't cause any functional change to a firearm).

My perspective shift happened in the mid to late 1990's, as I attended gun shows on a regular basis and began to see gun control for what it was. I'd go up to a gun table and see a "pre-ban" and "post-ban" AR-15. One was aesthetically and ergonomically more interesting, and the other functioned just the same. One was $2,500 because it was banned, and the other was $700 because it was "post-ban" and safe. Around that same time we began to see legislators crying foul on the post-ban guns, talking about how gun manufacturers were trying to circumvent the law. Nothing could have been further from the truth... the gun manufacturers followed the law precisely, just as they were asked to. They removed collapsible stocks, flash hiders, bayonet lugs, etc. They did as they were instructed, and no good came from it. So, at that point the legislators began asking for more comprehensive bans, and perhaps even bans on semi-autos.

In the time since I first became aware of gun control, I've yet to see a compromise, I've yet to see common sense, and I've come to learn that one side will always want to take, and won't be satisfied until all guns are gone. If you believe this is alright, I guess you'll keep your opinion on this issue. If you don't believe that's alright, then I think you will (with time) come to see the perspective that so many of us are talking about in this forum.


EDITED TO ADD:

If you don't think the left is just attempting to gain political traction from a tragedy, then tell me why Clinton, along with a handful of Democratic legislators, are currently using this shooting as a justification for arguing against moving suppressors from Title II to Title I. Removing suppressors from the NFA is just smart legislation, but we're using hysterics and political energy to suggest that they are somehow responsible for these kinds of things.
 
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If you don't think the left is just attempting to gain political traction from a tragedy, then tell me why Clinton, along with a handful of Democratic legislators, are currently using this shooting as a justification for arguing against moving suppressors from Title II to Title I. Removing suppressors from the NFA is just smart legislation, but we're using hysterics and political energy to suggest that they are somehow responsible for these kinds of things.

To further make this point, Clinton mentioned the suppressors legislation within hours of the news of the tragedy. Hours, not days or weeks. We were still hearing about the carnage and had little information and she was grand standing immediately.
 
Suppressors could have delayed finding this guy by a bit...

You sound like the same kind of people who are trying to pass these laws... people who have never used these devices, and know nothing about them.

Seriously, go shoot a high powered rifle that is firing supersonic ammunition with a suppressor, then come back and tell us what you know about them. Suppressed or unsuppressed would have made ZERO difference in the outcome of this case. Period. I already shared the sound pressure levels of suppressed fire with you in another thread, but I guess you glossed over those facts.

What suppressors actually do is help prevent hearing loss for thousands of shooters. What suppressors actually do is help prevent conflict between ranges and nearby landowners. What suppressors actually do is allow hunters to not blow their eardrums out every time they take a shot at a game animal. What suppressors actually do is help reduce recoil and muzzle blast in the shooter's face. What suppressors actually do is help instructors to train new shooters in a less intimidating manner. What suppressors DO NOT DO is cause a gun to be whisper quiet like you see in a James Bond movie.
 
I'm no mole, just a moderate millennial snowflake
You took the first step, admitting your problem. Now please take a break from posting unless you have a question.
Read and let the good folks here help you.
I'm not being sarcastic and don't mean to be condescending, I'm starting to feel sorry for you.
 
Pretty much the same here. But I view ARs and the like as weapons of war more than sporting goods.

The AR15 is quickly emerging as the absolute best semi automatic hunting platform there is. It's lightweight, super accurate, manages recoil much better than other platforms, has much better ergonomics, is readily configurable to user size and personal preferences, and it's affordable. And that's not even mentioning the various uses for competition, bench, etc., or the fact that many ARs are genuine collector's items these days.

But your "sporting goods" BS is a strawman argument anyways. The 2nd Amendment has NOTHING to do with hunting, or any other sporting purpose. It has to do with ensuring that the American people have the ability to defend themselves from a tyrannical government. Our founders recognized that a well trained national fighting force was necessary for preventing a foreign takeover, but they also recognized that such a force was an ever present temptation for the government to turn against its own people in order to take powers not granted to them by the Constitution.

Suppressors could have delayed finding this guy by a bit...

Nope. The only thing a suppressor would have done is reduce the hearing damage that Paddock undoubtedly suffered. Since he was planning on dying anyways, I'm guessing he wasn't too concerned with preserving his long term hearing.

Your attitudes are incredibly insensitive and arrogant and will be your downfall.

Here we go, let the ad hominems start flying. Instead of being a petulant child, how about addressing one single fact that has been presented to you?
 
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