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Stop calling it gouging.

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by Ragnar Danneskjold, Feb 3, 2013.

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  1. Ragnar Danneskjold

    Ragnar Danneskjold Member

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    What's with all the upset people calling raised gun prices "gouging"? That's simple market based pricing. There's nothing bad about it. I'm sorry that it's more than you want to pay. Boo hoo. The United States still ostensibly operates based on a free market economy. The price for anything, including guns, is based on the free agreement between buyer and seller. The seller will charge as much as he can, and the buyer will pay as little as he can. If those two prices meet somewhere, a sale is made. If they don't, no sale. It's pretty simple.

    The demand for guns and ammo has gone up. That means everything from the demand for materials to produce them, to the amount of shipping of materials and completed guns, to increased sales staff in stores, and everything in between has gone up to. Those things need to be paid for. And then there is the simple fact that any business exists to make a profit. Produce item for price X and sell item for price Y. The difference between the two prices is how the business owner feeds his family and makes sure he has another truckload of guns coming next week for you to buy. Stop whining that you're on the "negative" end of market forces this time.

    Ever bought something on sale? Market forces.
    Ever bought something in bulk for a lower price? Market forces.
    Ever bought something used for a lower prices? Market forces.
    Ever bought something online that was cheaper than in a store? Market forces.
    Ever tried selling something yourself? Did you sell it for $10 when you could have sold it for $200? Market forces.

    Did you feel bad that you were "gouging" the other side by paying less than you might have elsewhere, or that you got as much as you could for that thing you sold at a yard sale/craigslist/Gunbroker/etc? I bet you didn't. Because you were the one benefiting from the market at that point. So why are you whining now?

    When you bought something on sale, or used, or in bulk, etc, you paid a lower price because the value of those items was lower. That's the way the market works. Say a brand new gun costs $500. Would you buy the same gun from me for $500 after I've used it for a few years and shot a few thousand rounds through it? No? Why not? Because you wouldn't see the value as being as high as if it were new. I could try setting the price at $500, but you wouldn't take it until I lowered it to a price you're comfortable with. Remember, the price for something in a free market is where the lowest price the seller is willing to sell for and the highest price the buyer is willing to buy for meet. You wouldn't buy that used gun for $500 and I won't sell it for $100. But I'll keep lowering my price until we find one we agree on. If it's too low for me, I won't sell. If it's too high for you, you won't buy.

    So why are PMAGs going for $50-75+? Why have certain ammo calibers doubled in price? Why are certain guns going for a few hundred above the price a few months ago? Is it because that mean old gun store owner is trying to "gouge" you while you're down? Of course not. Stop being childish. It's because people are willing to pay it. If no one paid $75 for a PMAG, the price would drop to $70. If no one paid $70, the price would drop to $65, and so on and so on. Until it got to a price that both the seller and buyer are ok with. No more, no less.

    If you've ever bought something on sale, or bought something used for a lower price, etc, you need to stop whining about "gouging" right now. It's hypocritical and ignorant. The price is whatever two people agree on. Right now people are agreeing on prices that are higher than what they agreed on a few months ago. Suck it up and pay..........or don't. That's your choice in a free market too. And believe me, you don't really want the alternative.
     
  2. MaterDei

    MaterDei Member

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    The free market is free. This market is being influenced by our hyperactive government. There is plenty of reason to be pissed off.

    Otherwise, yes, the market sets the price and I'm fine with that.
     
  3. jcwit

    jcwit Member

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    I call it gouging, I consider it gouging. I do not consider it the free market.


    With that said I have no inclination to and have not bought any of the overpriced products. I have no need to and will not need to buy any of said products when and if the prices return to what they were. I have more than I'll use up in whats left in my lifetime, both in firearms and in ammo and reloading components.

    Also with said I have years and years of experience in the retail business. Starting back when I was 13 way back in 1956. Never ever did I see in those days business treating their customers as they are today.

    But todays folks outlook is entirely different as to how I was brought up. And thats very obvious in todays society, sorta why we have the welfare problem we do. Take a close look at Detroit.

    Yup its "GOUGING".
     
  4. meanmrmustard

    meanmrmustard Member

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    Agreed.

    The gun shop has to pay to replace the mags to keep them in stock, right?

    Then why is one store selling at $50 what was once $20, and another for $100 for the same item? This is rampant, and its gouging pure and simple.

    But people who lack the necessary cells for competent thought will pay these prices. Market Forces...and stupidity.

    I'll stop calling out "gouging" when it ceases to be.
     
  5. Grmlin

    Grmlin Member

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    It's gouging when a business takes advantage of a situation to raise prices to exorbitant amounts. Granted people are paying for it out of fear they will not be able to get anymore.
     
  6. browningguy

    browningguy Member

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    Says the man that doesn't have even a basic understanding of economic theory...
     
  7. mljdeckard

    mljdeckard Member

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    Oh, I concur with #3.

    Merchants are free to charge whatever they can get. and I'm free to cut them off. I suppose we will see in the long run whose is bigger.
     
  8. ID-shooting

    ID-shooting Member

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  9. Honest John

    Honest John Member

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    The free market is a theoretical abstraction based on a large amount of buyers and a large amount of sellers, all acting rationally and with free access to each other and with perfect information.
    The first part - acting rationally - is the first casualty of reality, especially in this case.
     
  10. JustinJ

    JustinJ Member

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    It is gouging. Even if you believe its okay to do by definition it absolutely is gouging. Sorry if you dont like the connotation but the word means what it means.
     
  11. Ragnar Danneskjold

    Ragnar Danneskjold Member

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    And that's exactly the way it's supposed to work.

    A brand new electronic gadget/TV/game system/etc comes out and sells for $600. Why not $1,000? Because no one would but it. Why not $20? Because the company would lose money. So the initial price is $600. That's the price that they seller knows they can actually sell enough of them to make a profit. Not low enough to lose money and not too high to not sell. So 6 months later the price drops to $500. Why? Because no one wants to pay $600 for something that isn't "new" anymore. A year later after sales have plateaued, it goes on "sale" for $350. Why is that price lower than the original $600? It's the same device right. If it was worth $600 it's worth $600 right? Wrong. People aren't willing to pay that anymore. But they are willing to pay $350. So sales spike a bit. A few years go buy and the company is set to release the next model of whatever gizmo they make. Prices for the old model drop to $150. Why? Because they have excess inventory and want to sell as many off as they can before they become obsolete and essentially worthless.

    In each price range, a different type of buyer is OK with that given price. The early adopter is totally fine with the $600. The sensible average buyer knows he can wait a bit and save a few hundred. And the guy on a budget knows he can get it for next to nothing by just buying it when the next new thing is about to be released. So why is the exact same item that does the exact same thing able to be sold for $600, $500, $350, and $150? Because enough people are willing to pay it.



    Question: why is it bad when a seller benefits from extra demand but not bad when the buyer benefits from extra supply?
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2013
  12. Steel Horse Rider

    Steel Horse Rider Member

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    I challenge all of you who believe business makes outrageous profits to open your own so you too may become rich. It will be the best education you ever receive and it also may make you think once or twice before opening you mouth to insert your own foot. Too bad a lot of you will never recognise that you are doing a one-legged dance.....
     
  13. BCCL

    BCCL Member

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    Once again, I'll point out that you ONLY hear consumers whine about "price gouging", when they are asked to pay more than they think they should have to for an item.

    You NEVER hear them scream "under pricing" when something they want is on sale.............
     
  14. avalys

    avalys Member

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    Personally, I would rather that my LGS had some ammo left in stock at any price, rather than having done the "noble" thing and sold it at the usual price to the first few yahoos that walked in the door on December 15.
     
  15. Ragnar Danneskjold

    Ragnar Danneskjold Member

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    Exactly. I bet every single person in this thread would say "YES" if someone offered them $500 apeice for a few 30rd magazines. Or if I offered to sell my magazines for $1. Why is that?
     
  16. meanmrmustard

    meanmrmustard Member

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    I guess if we opened a gun shop, charged exponentially more than the replacement cost plus the same percentage of profit pre-December 2012, then we'd be doing the hokey pokey.

    My boss started our company 30 years ago from near nothing with very little capital. He practically has to give some stuff away to get potential clients, and pays us well. Now, he's a 60 year old man in an Escalade that's motto still is "customer first, last, and always".

    There ended the lesson.
     
  17. meanmrmustard

    meanmrmustard Member

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    Because either of your scenarios ends with someone made out to be a rube.
     
  18. BCCL

    BCCL Member

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    Because it's a classic example of how deeply the "entitlement" mindset can infect even parts of society where you least expect it..."I want an item in high demand for the lower price of times of lesser demand, and if I don't get what I want it's not fair!!!"

    And honestly, your initial post shows a more solid understanding of economics than most college level professors I've sat through.
     
  19. coolluke01

    coolluke01 Member

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    If you don't like the price go buy it from someone that is selling it for less. Oh, wait, nobody has any. All this whining about gouging is tiring. Nothing has an intrinsic value! An item is worth whatever someone is willing to pay. Plain and simple.

    The shop owners have to replace the product that is sold. There is almost nothing available right now. Empty shelves don't make money. Many shops are buying product at higher prices just so they have something to put on their shelves.

    Some people find them selves in a position where they really want/need an item and they are very glad to pay a premium if it means they get the item they are looking for. Shops are simply providing a service for their customers. They have to make a profit.

    There is nothing morally superior in selling a product for less than others are. People with "higher calling" make lousy business owners. 50% of all businesses fail in the first 3 years.

    I do think businesses need to be careful not to disenfranchise their customers. They have it rough though. They have a very small markup to start with and then add in the crabby old farts, who are still stuck in the 1950's pricing, that make up the majority of their client base. Gun owners are often fundamentalist who see things as black and white. The truth is that there are extenuating circumstances and we need to quit crucifying our own when we don't agree with what they are doing.

    I work in a family service business and own my own business. I have learned that the only way I will be successful is if my customers are satisfied and happy with the experience. But, only one guy can be the cheapest. You can't get roped into the race to the bottom. Many gun shops do have a good deal to learn in the area of customer service though.
     
  20. Glennx39

    Glennx39 Member

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    They can charge whatever they want it's their right. Also people should've been buying things long before this. Also, WHY DID NO ONE, start buying after the last presidential debate when Obummer said clear as day he wanted a new AWB? That should've been a wake up call to everyone...

    pray for the best expect the worst
     
  21. Coop45

    Coop45 Member

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    Have you ever noticed that there are more people buying gasoline when it's expensive and fewer people when prices drop. It's just like the gun market.....fear driven. And there has been lots of fear mongering on this website. Think about it the next time you type sheeple and see how you fit into the puzzle.
     
  22. Jlr2267

    Jlr2267 Member

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    For anyone who thinks "gouging" is taking place, I will buy your AR's, glock 19's, minis and ammo for Nov. 2012 price (new) + 10% and pay shipping to my FFL.

    Please respond in this thread with what you have to sell at this more-than-fair price.
     
  23. AethelstanAegen

    AethelstanAegen Member

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    You've got the economics figured out, Ragnar. I sold my AK rifles in the current market. Why? Because they weren't worth $1000 to me but they were worth that to many buyers on the market. I was happy to sell my rifles (to buy others I did want more and some into savings) and my buyers were very happy to buy. I worked with buyers on price. I could have sold them for more than I did (I lowered my price for the eventual buyers because they were direct and easy to deal with), but I still made a nice profit. Everyone left the deal very happy with how it worked out, which is pretty much the ideal transaction in any market.
     
  24. Browning

    Browning Member

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    You can really tell who the buyers and sellers are on this thread.

    Ironic how personal circumstances dictate morals.
     
  25. Constrictor

    Constrictor Member

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    In this time of hard to get components, I have a shooting buddy that wanted me to sell him some in my stash. He wanted 4 pound of unique powder, 2 pounds of 2400 powder and 3000 small pistol primers and 1000 large pistol primers.

    I had 2 new pounds of 2400 $17.99 no problem
    I had 2 new pounds of unique, $15.99 ea and 2 pounds of older unopened Herculese unique powder no price on the cans.
    3000 Winchester small pistol $32.00 per thousand.
    I had cci large pistol which I bought during the last shortage at $46.95/1000

    He tells me fine on the 2400 even though you can't get it for that price anymore
    He tells me fine on the 2 new pounds of Alliant unique even though you can't get it for that price anymore.
    He doesn't want to pay the same price for the unmarked older unique because he says I surely didn't pay as much as the newer stuff.
    He says the large pistol primers are too high and wants me to sell him those for the price you last could buy them for when they were available.

    I tell him, just forget the whole deal. I'm not tryin to get rid of anything. I was just trying to help a bro out.

    I wasn't trying to make a profit but after thinking about it, why should I sell components I paid less than current value for when its going to cost me so much more to replace it? My only other resort is to make a deal with him I won't sell him the stuff, he just has to replace it when it becomes available again.
     
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