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Stopping Threat With Pistol and Reluctance To Fire

Discussion in 'Strategies, Tactics and Training' started by Double Naught Spy, Jan 14, 2020.

  1. Double Naught Spy

    Double Naught Spy Sus Venator

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    https://www.full30.com/embed/MDIxMj...84mCjxLNOv_E7S9wJ2gzCG1YMzy3ZTwj9ZtGznwjp4CHE

    Warning, video is intense. Most graphic imagery is blurred, however.

    Said multiple times, pistols are not the best of defensive weapons. There are good reasons why law enforcement and the military don't typically carry mouse gun calibers. With that said, if you aren't willing to shoot, you can end up like this cop. Sad situation overall. He gave the guy every chance possible and then gave him one too many.
     
  2. drband

    drband Member

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    Also shows the speed of attack for a knife wielding attacker. Even after being shot, he was really fast.

    I hope the cop survived.
     
  3. HPCadm17

    HPCadm17 Member

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    When someone asks, "Why did the cop have to shoot him so many times?" Here's the answer.
     
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  4. LaneP

    LaneP Member

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    Tense video to watch. I'm just not sure why when the perp got back up and lunged they didn't instantly drill him again.
     
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  5. AK103K

    AK103K Member

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    I saw that video earlier this year and wondered what the hell were those cops thinking? Not trying to second guess them, but its really hard to imagine they would let it go as far as they did. But hey, it was their show, and they dealt with it how they thought they should. Maybe they knew him and had dealt with him before and had a different outlook on things. Who knows.

    Personally, I probably would have shot him before he got to the car. Them about running backwards down hill and begging him really doesnt make any sense. Not shooting him again when he got up and went after him again makes even less.

    Id have liked to hear the comments in house when they were reviewing that tape later though. Looks like some cops need to work on a few things.

    One things for sure, anyone who thinks their handgun, regardless of caliber, is some sort of magical Sword of Todd, and they will only need to shoot once, really needs to watch this. Funny how reality works, isnt it?
     
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  6. Milt1

    Milt1 Member

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    Unbelievable, we've all heard that Leos are trained to not let a knife welder but so close and now we know why as the speed of an attack is faster than one can imagine. Thanks for showing this as it may save a THR member's life one day. The impact on me has been eye opening!
     
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  7. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    That is one eyeopening video.
     
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  8. murf

    murf Member

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    the power of meth.

    murf
     
  9. Double Naught Spy

    Double Naught Spy Sus Venator

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    I thought it was eye opening as well, on several levels. Obviously the first cop (Harrison did not want to shoot the guy (Hong). He backed up, what 100 yards or more and into the highway. He didn't shoot until the guy went after him. Hong went down, and I am not totally surprised he got up. You can later see in parts of the video that despite being shot at several times at close range, Hong had mulitple peripheral and low (left pelvis area) hits, not sure about COM hits. At that point, Officer Harrison apparently is telling the other officer (Bidinger) to shoot less lethal (taser?) which doesn't happen when Hong goes after Harrison again, and Harrison DOES NOT WANT TO SHOOT HIM (because Hong no longer has the knife?) to the point that he is trying to holster his weapon before the Hong gets all over him and then the Harrison finally announced, "He's got my gun" (or words along that line) and Bidinger shoots Hong multiple times, killing him. Wow. Just wow.

    https://www.11alive.com/article/new...oting/85-3762842c-4760-4274-98d2-6d5347a5f394

    Interestingly, Bidinger was a first year cop and this was his 2nd shooting. He was involved with 6 other officers in shooting a convicted felon who pointed a gun (turned out to be an airsoft gun) at officers and was cleared in that shooting. No doubt, he will be (is?) cleared in this one as well.
     
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  10. bdickens

    bdickens Member

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    All the idiot "reporters" and associated do-gooders who love to perceverate - with much weeping and gnashing of teeth - over police officers doing their jobs should be forced to watch 16 hours of videos like this.
     
  11. scaatylobo

    scaatylobo Member

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    Saw this happen FAR TOO MANY TIMES.

    As a LEO who taught defensive tactics for 22 years my first day in class became the day I tried REALLY hard to impress upon all my students that there may very well come a day when some lunny will try "suicide by cop" and if that is your call = TAKE THE SHOT.

    If you cannot do that,get another job !.

    That cop was more afraid to shoot than to live,and that is a bad day and a worse thing to live with.

    Your gun is NOT a talisman that stops death from your door.

    Pointing [ better yet aiming it ] will NOT stop anyone from trying to take your life.
     
  12. FL-NC

    FL-NC Member

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    Lots of mistakes made here.
     
  13. TomJ
    • Contributing Member

    TomJ Contributing Member

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    Insulting our ethnicity. Pretty classy.
     
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  14. WTBguns10kOK

    WTBguns10kOK Member

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    Thank goodness someone actually did a headshot. Victim cop better have retired.
     
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  15. JTHunter

    JTHunter Member

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    Not just meth. Years ago, there were stories like this about people on PCP ("angel dust") that were able to run on broken legs because they couldn't feel the pain.
     
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  16. bdickens

    bdickens Member

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    Contrast the alleged "professionals" here with the mere private citizens in White Settlement....
     
  17. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    ??
     
  18. bdickens

    bdickens Member

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    Decisiveness.
     
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  19. Double Naught Spy

    Double Naught Spy Sus Venator

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    Not sure about decisiveness issue or that the two situations are not directly comparable. A person with a knife at distance or no weapon is not the same threat immediacy as a person with a shotgun pointed at a victim. If you watch those mere private citizens, the first had a 4 second draw on the bad guy that was already threatening to kill him and that was too slow and he was killed. The hero of White Settlement is current firearms instructor, former cop, got his hand on his gun at the same time as the guy who was killed and FAILED to draw his gun until AFTER two people had been shot and didn't fire until the gunman made his third shot. He either could not get his gun out of his own holster or was so reluctant to draw. Either way, it took two people getting killed before he entered the battle.
     
  20. bdickens

    bdickens Member

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    You must have watched a different video than I did.
     
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  21. jmorris

    jmorris Member

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    Harrison sounds like a genuinely compassionate sole, that I hope is OK and if he is, should feel quite lucky.

    Bidinger made a shot, in a situation that shouldn’t have been allowed to have been created.
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2020
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  22. sequins

    sequins Member

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    I wouldn't be surprised if they were thinking about the ethics inquiry and public backlash and personal threats and protestors targeting them as individuals for a perceived "bad shoot" situation more than they were thinking of their own safety.

    This is the world we live in where as a cop you have to second guess yourself even as a knife wielding mad man bears down on you. I'm sorry this happened and even sorrier at the political state where it's reasonable to fear public perception so greatly that it gets you killed.
     
  23. jmorris

    jmorris Member

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    ^. Not only that but the armchair quarterbacks would have wanted him thrown in jail if, after he retreated well behind his squad car, the suspect jumped in it and took off, to later kill people with it and/or its contents.

    Forget the fact that he could have been part of a group of actors that were left to cause much more damage in the response delay...

    Details matter and I don’t know them.
     
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  24. george29

    george29 Member

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    I've mentioned this in the past, it's easier to survive a gunshot than a knifing. Haven't watched the video posted, seen enough. Keep shooting until the perp isn't a threat, reload, keep target covered from behind cover as you dial 911.

    Just watched it, 2 mistakes police make (could never pound this into my guys enough), take the extra 2 seconds and take your rifle, second, walking in any direction is dangerous but especially backwards. Luckily he had back up next to him. The third is if the perp is getting back up don't hesitate. We had the John Boyd shooting and eventually the cops were all cleared, people were really upset but the cops were vindicated because he was still not listening to commands.
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2020
  25. george29

    george29 Member

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    It's the same equation used in emergency braking; perception + reaction = action

    Having watched the church shooting video, his action time is around 6 seconds but I noticed that perception time of the hero was about 1 second based on his body language.

    I think then it's wise to add a control to the above formula and call it enhanced observation, but even with perception comes disbelief, is this really happening? That took up many seconds and you can't blame the guy.

    In my mind you have:

    Enhanced observation + perception + clouded judgement + reaction = action.

    6 seconds is a long time, long enough to be rushed and stabbed from 7 yards.

    No blame or criticism intended.
     
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