bigun15
Member
Yes. That's why you make a fool out of him and humiliate him. Even stupid people are (usually) smart enough to learn from a mistake with a consequence like that.
Strange situation at church tonight. Irresponsible gun owner.
- Thread starter KevinB
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Yes. That's why you make a fool out of him and humiliate him. Even stupid people are (usually) smart enough to learn from a mistake with a consequence like that.
WayneConrad
Member
Your friend and the girl's mom did well to keep their heads and handle things without any chest beating or pointless hysteria. A friendly (without belittling or condenscension) talk about holsters and concealment techniques, in the parking lot after the service, would been right neighborly.
Dionysusigma
Member
It is a sad day indeed when one cannot both perform on-stage at church and carry concealed. 
Andrew Rothman
Member
If I wasn't clear enough, no, not to steal it. To keep it safe, to let him have the panic attack, and then to return it once the lesson is learned.
If you think temporarily taking possession of it is stealing, please look up the principle of lesser harm.
Derby FALs
Member In Memoriam
Make sure you get lots of prints on it.
You know,in most states if you had pocketed the gun and he had simply reported you as stealing his gun,you will go to jail,whether he's legally carrying or not.When you explained to the police you were trying to teach him a lesson,their reply would most likely be something along the lines of"That's OUR job,now put your hands behind your back."Not to mention you could possibly lose your right to own and/or carry.I agree something should be said,but look at the positives here:First,he IS in church,not many teens and twentysomethings go there at all,so you're probably looking at someone that isn't terribly evil-minded.At least he had the presence of mind to not want to panic the entire congregation should his gun become visible.Second,his friend was the one guilty of the bad for not securing the weapon,NOT the goth guy.And what a perfect opportunity to gain a shooting buddy,you don't have to hang out with him,but if you were to go shooting with him a few times you would have the opportunity to steer him in the right direction regarding concealed carry.Who knows,under that exterior that scares the crap out of you might lurk a new friend,once you base your opinions on what kind of person he is,rather than what he looks like.Using the commonly depicted image of Jesus Christ himself,you think they'd allow Him into a Southern Baptist church in,say,Mississippi??You GOTTA look past the skin,man,after all,isn't that what religion is all about in the first place???You know,we're all brothers inside???Or do you go to church just to be seen at church??
You must LIVE it,or you're wasting your time.And He will know the difference when you meet...
You must LIVE it,or you're wasting your time.And He will know the difference when you meet...
Standing Wolf
Member in memoriam
I'd say the lad needs a heart to heart conversation with an adult who's wise to the ways of firearms.
B
Boss Spearman
Guest
MikeIsaj said:
I'm with you on this one.
The temptation to pistol whip the guy would be there too, but I'd ignore it.
klover
Member
I'd make sure to invite the young mother
to go with me while I remove the gun (muzzle ALWAYS down) to the parking lot. She would be a witness to my motives. We would then surrender the gun to the police, and let the police do the determination for further education.
Not knowing the gun, I would not attempt to clear the ammo in it. It could have a home trigger job on it that could discharge with a breath.
It's way serious to allow children (or anyone) to come to harm by neglect of your responsibillities to be a SAFE gun owner (or a SAFE caretaker of someone else's gun).
to go with me while I remove the gun (muzzle ALWAYS down) to the parking lot. She would be a witness to my motives. We would then surrender the gun to the police, and let the police do the determination for further education.
Not knowing the gun, I would not attempt to clear the ammo in it. It could have a home trigger job on it that could discharge with a breath.
It's way serious to allow children (or anyone) to come to harm by neglect of your responsibillities to be a SAFE gun owner (or a SAFE caretaker of someone else's gun).
Thin Black Line
Member
Quote:
"A friendly (without belittling or condenscension) talk about holsters and concealment techniques, in the parking lot after the service, would been right neighborly."
------------------
Sorry, crowded Church, people not paying attention, little kids, imminent
danger --we're past the "neighborly" conversation stage when someone is
being an idiot. Same thing when some idiot is handling their weapon while
you're downrange. You take charge of situation when there are potentially
catastrophic consequences. Better some ruffled feathers than a dead kid.
Gun rights get circumscribed when they can't be handled safely around
other people.
Quote:
"You know,in most states if you had pocketed the gun and he had simply reported you as stealing his gun,you will go to jail,whether he's legally carrying or not."
-------------------
We're assuming these people would have even noticed. And, no, taking
the firearm to the minister and making a phone call to the police about a
"pistol I just found left here on a chair in our Church" is NOT going to result in
me going to jail.
So, assuming this "goth dude" even had a ccw and it was legal to carry inside
a Church in the first place (maybe/maybe not?), after his scolding for being a
complete idiot and assuming the police wouldn't have further business to
conduct with him downtown, he could benefit from a holster AND lanyard.
My guess is the police could have asked the entire church whose pistol
this was and no one would have stepped forward to claim it......
"A friendly (without belittling or condenscension) talk about holsters and concealment techniques, in the parking lot after the service, would been right neighborly."
------------------
Sorry, crowded Church, people not paying attention, little kids, imminent
danger --we're past the "neighborly" conversation stage when someone is
being an idiot. Same thing when some idiot is handling their weapon while
you're downrange. You take charge of situation when there are potentially
catastrophic consequences. Better some ruffled feathers than a dead kid.
Gun rights get circumscribed when they can't be handled safely around
other people.
Quote:
"You know,in most states if you had pocketed the gun and he had simply reported you as stealing his gun,you will go to jail,whether he's legally carrying or not."
-------------------
We're assuming these people would have even noticed. And, no, taking
the firearm to the minister and making a phone call to the police about a
"pistol I just found left here on a chair in our Church" is NOT going to result in
me going to jail.
So, assuming this "goth dude" even had a ccw and it was legal to carry inside
a Church in the first place (maybe/maybe not?), after his scolding for being a
complete idiot and assuming the police wouldn't have further business to
conduct with him downtown, he could benefit from a holster AND lanyard.
My guess is the police could have asked the entire church whose pistol
this was and no one would have stepped forward to claim it......
Texas9
Member
Good thing not in TX
It's a real good thing for him, anyway
For starters, I have hair to the small of my back, an earring, and about 4" of goattee hanging from my chin. I attend church like that. I also handle my gun like that. One's appearance has little to do with the number of functioning brain cells he has. Would we be accusing him of drug use or felony history were he clean cut in kakhis and a nice button down? I would hope that should we ever end up at a group shoot that I'd not be looked down upon for that.
Secondly, permit or not, were he in Texas a crime would have clearly been commited. In Texas, it is unlawful for anyone to, intentionally or not, leave a firearm in a place that can be easily accessed by a child. EVEN IF he had a permit, he had also committed a crime (in ANY state) because he FAILED TO CONCEAL. Any short-haired church-goer can appreciate this.
I think this is a clear-cut case of irresponsibility gone from bad to worse. Let's all rejoice in that it didn't go from worse to worst.
That being said, I'd like to slap the moron in question here for being the cause of his own criticism. Stuff like that makes me look bad. I'd rather have the chance to do that on my own
It's a real good thing for him, anyway
For starters, I have hair to the small of my back, an earring, and about 4" of goattee hanging from my chin. I attend church like that. I also handle my gun like that. One's appearance has little to do with the number of functioning brain cells he has. Would we be accusing him of drug use or felony history were he clean cut in kakhis and a nice button down? I would hope that should we ever end up at a group shoot that I'd not be looked down upon for that.
Secondly, permit or not, were he in Texas a crime would have clearly been commited. In Texas, it is unlawful for anyone to, intentionally or not, leave a firearm in a place that can be easily accessed by a child. EVEN IF he had a permit, he had also committed a crime (in ANY state) because he FAILED TO CONCEAL. Any short-haired church-goer can appreciate this.
I think this is a clear-cut case of irresponsibility gone from bad to worse. Let's all rejoice in that it didn't go from worse to worst.
That being said, I'd like to slap the moron in question here for being the cause of his own criticism. Stuff like that makes me look bad. I'd rather have the chance to do that on my own
Only nit to pick here is the parenthetical "in ANY state" -
While I'm sure there are other states, at least MN & TN allow open carry with the same license that covers concealed carry. In fact, if I'm not mistaken, TX may well be in a minority in licensing concealed carry only.
Derby FALs
Member In Memoriam
He committed a CRIME, oh my!
No one was harmed. I hope no one here ever loses their right to be armed, forever, over a technicality. If you do, think back on your response to this thread for consolation.
No one was harmed. I hope no one here ever loses their right to be armed, forever, over a technicality. If you do, think back on your response to this thread for consolation.
Wait just a minute, everyone.
The kid didn't leave his gun just lying around. He asked his brother to watch the gun for him.
Instead of getting mad at the gun owner, who obviously believed his brother could be trusted to watch the gun, why not get mad at the brother, who didn't watch the gun?
pax
The kid didn't leave his gun just lying around. He asked his brother to watch the gun for him.
Instead of getting mad at the gun owner, who obviously believed his brother could be trusted to watch the gun, why not get mad at the brother, who didn't watch the gun?
pax
rageofangels
Member
pax
Isn't that what I said?
Isn't that what I said?
one-shot-one
Member
good point pax
but he was wrong about his brother being trustworthy.
i'm not sure what should have been done, i was not there but now kevin, you your friend and the mother of the little girl should let the church leadership know what happened as it is in their best intrerest to have a talk with both this young man and his brother about personel responsability. this could have badly effected the entire church.
but he was wrong about his brother being trustworthy.
i'm not sure what should have been done, i was not there but now kevin, you your friend and the mother of the little girl should let the church leadership know what happened as it is in their best intrerest to have a talk with both this young man and his brother about personel responsability. this could have badly effected the entire church.
rageofangels ~ you were alone, weren't you?
one-shot-one ~
Correct. But there's plenty of blame to go around. My kids (five boys) sat through church with us when they were little, starting at age 2 or 2 1/2. They sat when we sat, and they stood in place next to us or were held in our arms while standing. They did not wander up and down the aisle, they were not allowed to make noise, and we sure as heck did not allow them to clamber back and forth in the pew behind everyone else who was standing. The mom couldn't have expected a firearm to be sitting on the pew, but she still shouldn't have been allowing her daughter to play in a church service. That's not what church is for.
pax
one-shot-one ~
Correct. But there's plenty of blame to go around. My kids (five boys) sat through church with us when they were little, starting at age 2 or 2 1/2. They sat when we sat, and they stood in place next to us or were held in our arms while standing. They did not wander up and down the aisle, they were not allowed to make noise, and we sure as heck did not allow them to clamber back and forth in the pew behind everyone else who was standing. The mom couldn't have expected a firearm to be sitting on the pew, but she still shouldn't have been allowing her daughter to play in a church service. That's not what church is for.
pax
KevinB
Member
Alright, I'm just going to clear a few things up. I'm not judging this guy by the way he dresses. I know him, his brother, and their family history. That's why the strong suspicion of drug use. I'm a college student and I am well aware that there are alot of people out there that draw judgements from the way young people dress. I am not one of them. I find humor in the number of people that label some as "gangbangers" because they dress in the style of the times. I have several friends that dress in the aforementioned way, and they are in no way affiliated with a gang. I was just trying to provide a good description of the situation, including his appearance. If he was clean cut and liked to wear khaki's and pink polo shirts I would have described him just the same. Of course instead of "goth boy" he probably would've gotten a name like "sweetness" or something.
Also, I have no problem with this guy coming to my church. We have a large number of people in our congregation with problems in their life. Who doesn't? We have several homeless living there until we can get them on their feet. We have drug addicts, alcoholics, and prostitutes as well. One of our church slogans is "Church is for sinners, not for saints". Its like a hospital, if no one is sick what's the point? The only thing I don't want him bringing to church is unsafe behavior that endangers me and my church family.
Finally, there is no law in Tennessee prohibiting lawful carry in a place of worship. I checked on that one a long time ago for my purposes. I did forget to mention earlier though that the brother left in charge of the weapon is not yet 21. So I believe he ran afoul of the law by allowing a minor to hold on to his firearm.
Well, that said this has been an intresting discussion thus far. Thanks to everybody who has contributed their opinion to this thread. I wish everybody a wonderful day!
-Kevin
P.S. Texas9, I just noticed your post about the group shoot. It would be my pleasure to shoot with a fellow responsible gun owner. If you ever make it over to Memphis drop me a P.M. and we can go send some lead downrange. And I wouldn't look down on you unless of course you out-shoot me. (long hair AND earings.... mumble mumble)
Also, I have no problem with this guy coming to my church. We have a large number of people in our congregation with problems in their life. Who doesn't? We have several homeless living there until we can get them on their feet. We have drug addicts, alcoholics, and prostitutes as well. One of our church slogans is "Church is for sinners, not for saints". Its like a hospital, if no one is sick what's the point? The only thing I don't want him bringing to church is unsafe behavior that endangers me and my church family.
Finally, there is no law in Tennessee prohibiting lawful carry in a place of worship. I checked on that one a long time ago for my purposes.
I did forget to mention earlier though that the brother left in charge of the weapon is not yet 21. So I believe he ran afoul of the law by allowing a minor to hold on to his firearm.Well, that said this has been an intresting discussion thus far. Thanks to everybody who has contributed their opinion to this thread. I wish everybody a wonderful day!
-Kevin
P.S. Texas9, I just noticed your post about the group shoot. It would be my pleasure to shoot with a fellow responsible gun owner. If you ever make it over to Memphis drop me a P.M. and we can go send some lead downrange. And I wouldn't look down on you unless of course you out-shoot me. (long hair AND earings.... mumble mumble)
Not likely.
Since you say "not yet 21," I'm assuming the younger brother is at least 18. Perfectly legal for him to hold that gun even if he were under 18, as long as parents or guardians approve. At 18, he could own that handgun even though he couldn't yet (fed law) buy it from an FFL. There's at least one state that issues carry permits to 18 year olds.
pax
KevinB
Member
Yes, he is at least 18. I'm trying to read up on the law about this, but it's a little fuzzy. It says that you can't sell, loan, or give a firearm to a minor. But it doesn't give the defintion of a minor. It has the definition of a juvenile as someone under 18, but still nothing for 18-21. There are exceptions of course. Hunting and sport to name a couple. And I know someone 18 or older can own a handgun. I did at one time. I just don't think there would be any exception to letting his brother hold on to a loaded handgun in public. But honestly, I really wasn't trying to figure out kind of laws were broken in this situation. Mostly, I was just focusing on the unsafe behavior.
-Kevin
P.S. Finally made 100 post!! Senior Member just has such a nice ring to it.
-Kevin
P.S. Finally made 100 post!! Senior Member just has such a nice ring to it.
Oh, incidentally. I dunno what your friend "should have" done.
What I would have done, being the person I am and knowing what I know, would be to reach over and snag the firearm as soon as I saw the little girl looking at it and heading that way.
Then, if & when kid brother turned around, I'd have quietly shown him that I had it and pointed toward the little girl while shaking my head. I'd have quietly handed it back to big brother when he returned.
Odds are, they'd have asked me about the whole thing after service, and I'd have explained then what had happened and why I did what I did.
Both those guys needed a lesson, sure, but that wasn't the most important thing. The most important thing was to prevent a tragedy right then and there. So that's what I would have acted immediately to prevent. I'd have done it as discreetly as possible, but I'd have done it.
pax
What I would have done, being the person I am and knowing what I know, would be to reach over and snag the firearm as soon as I saw the little girl looking at it and heading that way.
Then, if & when kid brother turned around, I'd have quietly shown him that I had it and pointed toward the little girl while shaking my head. I'd have quietly handed it back to big brother when he returned.
Odds are, they'd have asked me about the whole thing after service, and I'd have explained then what had happened and why I did what I did.
Both those guys needed a lesson, sure, but that wasn't the most important thing. The most important thing was to prevent a tragedy right then and there. So that's what I would have acted immediately to prevent. I'd have done it as discreetly as possible, but I'd have done it.
pax
Texas9
Member
KevinB
Congrats on Senior Member status! I've only got about 95 more to go...
Didn't mean to get too irritalbe there, it just seemed that once tattoos and such were mentioned that things went south. I mean, I'll try and dress decent for church, but I can't cover ugly My point, along with several others, as it turns out, was not to judge. I'm perfectly capable of screwing up myself, just give me time .
Thanks for the good topic. Oh, yeah. I'm from the Memphis area (raised there for 20 yrs) and my entire family still lives there (I visit every chance I get). So I'd be happy to aerate something with you. RangeUSA still 15 bucks?
C
Congrats on Senior Member status! I've only got about 95 more to go...
Didn't mean to get too irritalbe there, it just seemed that once tattoos and such were mentioned that things went south. I mean, I'll try and dress decent for church, but I can't cover ugly
My point, along with several others, as it turns out, was not to judge. I'm perfectly capable of screwing up myself, just give me time .Thanks for the good topic. Oh, yeah. I'm from the Memphis area (raised there for 20 yrs) and my entire family still lives there (I visit every chance I get). So I'd be happy to aerate something with you. RangeUSA still 15 bucks?
C
KevinB
Member
Texas9,
Nah, I didn't think you were being irritable. You made a good point about not judging by appearance.
Ah a Memphis native huh? Yep, RangeUSA is 15 bucks for two people. They have specials though, college night, bring a friend night, NRA member night and so on. And since we're on the topic, if you bring your church bulletin with you on Sundays you get a free target.
Stay safe everybody,
-Kevin
Nah, I didn't think you were being irritable. You made a good point about not judging by appearance.
Ah a Memphis native huh? Yep, RangeUSA is 15 bucks for two people. They have specials though, college night, bring a friend night, NRA member night and so on. And since we're on the topic, if you bring your church bulletin with you on Sundays you get a free target.
Stay safe everybody,
-Kevin
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