tbob38
Member
I recently bought a CZ 75B in satin stainless steel. It got me wondering how this and other pistols rank regarding strength and life with +P+ ammo. I started by wondering if my CZ would be OK with Underwood 115 gr +P+ loads.
Strength/longevity of various 9mm pistols.
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Zaydok Allen
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The CZ75 is a robust gun, but a steady diet of +P+ is going to wear out any pistol faster. I guess I just look at loads like that as a poor substitute for a more powerful cartridge.
I carry +P ammo, but I sure am not going to shoot more of it than is needed to test function.
I carry +P ammo, but I sure am not going to shoot more of it than is needed to test function.
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+P+ just means "off the map." There's no standard. You cannot tell how far off the map you are. It's like saying that a car was going more than 70 mph. OK, was it going 74 or 104 or Mach 1.4?
Of course, barring a case failure, peak pressure (which is what +P/+P+ reflects) isn't actually what wears out guns. Recoil is what wears out guns. More recoil = faster wear on the items that take the load. More wear on barrel/slide lug interfaces. More stretching on rails. More whacking on the frame abutment. If the Underwood ammo is pushing a bullet very fast, then it's going to have a good deal of recoil.
For CZ's, one of the things that takes the load is the slide stop pin that serves as the pivot for the barrel tilting mechanism. You should get a couple of spares of those if you're shooting a high volume anyway, but definitely if you're going to hammer it with a bunch of above-spec super-hot ammo.
P.S. - I shoot +P+ 9mm ammo all the time. Out of a purpose built USPSA open-division race gun. Which has a compensator that radically slows slide velocity and fractionally delays unlocking. If you're trying to duplicate .357 Sig/.357 magnum loads out of a 9mm, stick a comp on the front. Both you and the gun will enjoy it more.
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Generally speaking any of the steel framed or plastic framed guns hold up to an awful lot of rounds, even +p or NATO spec rounds which is pretty hot. Some of the aluminum alloy guns have shown they will have a frame failure at much lower round counts. But very few people will shoot any of them enough to wear it out.
There are several ammo companies out there offering loads that are faster than normal. I have some and do shoot them. But anything that hot is used sparingly. I don't see the need for a 115 gr bullet that fast. A 124 gr bullet at about 1200-1300 fps is pretty much NATO or +P range and has proven to be an effective load. The FBI load is a 147 gr bullet at around 1000 fps.
There are several ammo companies out there offering loads that are faster than normal. I have some and do shoot them. But anything that hot is used sparingly. I don't see the need for a 115 gr bullet that fast. A 124 gr bullet at about 1200-1300 fps is pretty much NATO or +P range and has proven to be an effective load. The FBI load is a 147 gr bullet at around 1000 fps.
ThomasT
Member
If you feel you need +P+ to handle your SD situations you don't need +P+. You really just need a bigger gun with more power. A few +P+ probably won't hurt any gun but I personally wouldn't use it. If my 9mm isn't enough I have several 357s and a 44 mag and those will out power any +P+ 9mm load. Or maybe even better if you like autos look at getting a 10mm. I have shot my buds Glock and it was a nice gun firing a powerful round.
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TomJ
Contributing Member
Attached is a gel test of Underwood's 115 grain +P+. I'm a fan of Underwood ammo, however if this is the ammo you're asking about it only penetrates to 9 inches. I've seen this with some +P+ ammo, as the increased velocity comes at a cost of penetration. They have other, more effective ammo with better penetration. Their Gold Dot does better.
Underwood 115 gr +P+
Underwood 115 gr +P+
Underwood 115 gr +P+
Underwood 115 gr +P+
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tbob38
Member
You seem to be making some assumptions about me. I am just asking a question. I have many guns more (much more) powerful than any 9mm.
ThomasT
Member
Nope. No assumptions just trying to answer your question. Your CZ should be one of the stronger autos on the market. If you want to shoot it with endless +P+ rounds then have at it. But you might check to see if that will void any warranties it comes with.
ThomasT
Member
The best answer to your question was on the CZ site under the FAQ section.
Obturation
Member
If you ever wear out a gun you'll have spent 10x the original cost on ammo. So don't worry about it, hammer those pistolas and let us know when you wore one out. It's just not something to worry about unless you're a competitive shooter, in which case hopefully you're earning money doing it in which case buy another gun and if you're not, give up.
Shoot more, worry less
Shoot more, worry less
Directed specifically to your question, in regards to 9mm pistols, I'd rank it above a FN P-35 and below a S&W Gen 3.
So just ranking common popular full sized 9mm pistols. Most durable to least:
1. Polymer framed pistols...H&K, Glock, SIG, S&W, Walther
2. Steel framed pistols...S&W, SIG,
2a. CZ/TZ...those slide stop pin breakages have been part of the CZ design weakness since the beginning
3. Aluminum framed pistols...SIG, Beretta
4. Early FN P-35 with the lighter slides
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I don’t know about other handguns, but I was poor when I started USPSA back in the 90’s. I couldn’t afford an STI or Para Ordnance, so I went with a Glock 24. That’s a long slide .40.
Back then major power factor was 175. I was shooting 140gr projectiles to a velocity to make a 177 power factor on average to make sure I’d make the cut.
I had an aftermarket ported barrel in it. Don’t remember the brand, but I retired that pistol at just over 85,000 rounds when the barrel lug sheered off. I put a new barrel in it and it was still good to go.
Unfortunately, law school got in the way so I stopped shooting USPSA and only did steel matches and had a rock island .38 super put together for that.
I sold the Glock and the guy that bought it shot it for a good while before he sold it.
I can’t speak about the actual CZ’s but a bunch of guys used to shoot witnesses. Back then they came with a lifetime warranty. They’d send them in every year or two when they broke. Super major is a nasty round.
Back then major power factor was 175. I was shooting 140gr projectiles to a velocity to make a 177 power factor on average to make sure I’d make the cut.
I had an aftermarket ported barrel in it. Don’t remember the brand, but I retired that pistol at just over 85,000 rounds when the barrel lug sheered off. I put a new barrel in it and it was still good to go.
Unfortunately, law school got in the way so I stopped shooting USPSA and only did steel matches and had a rock island .38 super put together for that.
I sold the Glock and the guy that bought it shot it for a good while before he sold it.
I can’t speak about the actual CZ’s but a bunch of guys used to shoot witnesses. Back then they came with a lifetime warranty. They’d send them in every year or two when they broke. Super major is a nasty round.
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tbob38
Member
Thanks for the answers so far gents. I'm 81 so it's not likely that I will wear out any of my guns, but glad to hear results of others.
The chances of a manufacturer affirmatively endorsing +p+ are very low, because there is no spec for that. A 100k PSI round would be “+P+” and would disassemble any gun.
oh, I read +P and missed the extra + .. sounds like a recipe to crack the frame on your firearm to me
If you look at the numbers you're not gaining a lot using +P+. 100 fps maybe.
You also have to consider velocity isn't everything. The 9" penetration stated for the 115 gr is due to the fact bullets are designed for a certain velocity range. The 115 gr bullet olnly penetrated 9" because the extra velocity caused it to expand too quickly. 9" of penetration may be enough or appropriate because you need limited penetration for your application. But if you need 10" of penetration you're screwed. The WW 115 Silvertip used in the FBI Miami shooting was condemned because it only penetrated 11".
I have seen 357 hollow point loads penetrate less in a carbine because they expanded too rapidly due to the higher velocity. Not a scientific test just an observation.
A 38 factory wad cutter will penetrate 14" or better from a 2". That meets the FBI standard.
I'm not a fan of +P or +P+. I will use 38 +P in a K frame or larger or 38 +P+ in a 357. None of it in a semiauto.
You also have to accept the increased recoil and muzzle flash from +P or +P+.
If you want more velocity you should get a 357 SIG.
You also have to consider velocity isn't everything. The 9" penetration stated for the 115 gr is due to the fact bullets are designed for a certain velocity range. The 115 gr bullet olnly penetrated 9" because the extra velocity caused it to expand too quickly. 9" of penetration may be enough or appropriate because you need limited penetration for your application. But if you need 10" of penetration you're screwed. The WW 115 Silvertip used in the FBI Miami shooting was condemned because it only penetrated 11".
I have seen 357 hollow point loads penetrate less in a carbine because they expanded too rapidly due to the higher velocity. Not a scientific test just an observation.
A 38 factory wad cutter will penetrate 14" or better from a 2". That meets the FBI standard.
I'm not a fan of +P or +P+. I will use 38 +P in a K frame or larger or 38 +P+ in a 357. None of it in a semiauto.
You also have to accept the increased recoil and muzzle flash from +P or +P+.
If you want more velocity you should get a 357 SIG.
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tbob38
Member
My Czech heritage does not include include the language skills, unfortunately. This guy's limited language ability is mostly in English where the manual is a bit lacking.lol
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tbob38
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Hmmm. In my reading I have found that other federal agencies do not necessarily follow FBI's lead. Border Patrol for example. I do have .357 Sig pistols which I shoot fairly often, thanks.
I'm not talking caliber and gun when I refer to the FBI standard. I'm talking about a minimum of 12-14" and a maximum of 18" penetration in gel.
I feel comfortable carrying a good 9mm load that meets those standards.
I find it almost amusing how the bar has shifted since HWFE was written. How the "up to 18" is preferred" and 12" minimum Urey Patrick stated has morphed into "just get over 12".
1942bull
Member
Any ammo over standard pressure is going to standard put more stress on the gun than a standard pressure load. What effect that will have on a gun depends upon the construction of the gun. No one can reliably answer the OP’s question because there is no comparative data tear on gun wear and tear from different pressure ammo to support an accurate answer.
I am taking a different stance on the topic of +P+ ammo. I did a lot of research and test firing before deciding on 95 grain Underwood Extreme Defender ammo for my PPS M2 with its 3.18 inch barrel. Below are the stats on that ammo according to pressure rating.
Standard: Velocity = 1400. Energy = 395 ft. Lbs. Penetration = 15 inches
+P: Velocity = 1475. Energy = 435 ft. Lbs. Penetration = 16 inches
+P+ Velocity = 1550. Energy = 480 ft. Lbs. Penetration. = 17 inches
The three rounds all meet the FBI penetration specification of 12 to 18 inches. The +P+ does penetrate the deepest and it has 85 more ft. Lbs. of muzzle energy. That is a 22% increase. However what is the net gain of that extra energy in a handgun used at CQB distances. Answer is that there is no conclusive testing to rely on for the answer. Theory is all we have to go on. So consider the following.
To be good defensive round it should penetrate 12 to 18 inches in organic gel covers with 4 layers of denim. This is from a description of the FBI ammo testing.
So it seems that 14 to 16 inches of penetration are preferred by the FBI. Fo my ammo Standard and +P meet that parameter. My round falls between the two depths. A good read with more info on FBI testing is at: http://www.brassfetcher.com/FBI Ammunition Protocol/FBI Ammunition Protocol.html
Higher velocities generally serve to make JHP ammo expand more reliably. Too much expansion will slow the bullet down inside the target. Too little or no expansion will cause JHP to act like FMJ and over-penetrate. So the benefit of over-standard pressure round is generally deeper penetration and more reliable expansion. But compare the difference between +P and +P+ in the comparison I made above. +P+ is 75 ft/sec and 45 ft. Lbs. more than +P and offers an unnecessary 1 inch more penetration. That is practically meaning less in a gunfight.
If you do the research I believe you will find that the eight of JHP bullet is more important than velocity when it comes to making a more damaging wound. At least that was what I found when I went to 9mm from 40 SW and from a 4 inch to a 3.18 inch barrel. I settled on Federal HST 147 grain JHP. It is lethal and meets FBI specs out of a 3” barrel. I do not need rounds that are greater than standard pressure to defend myself.
About a year ago I switched to Underwood Extreme Defender 95 grain ammo at standard pressure. It is a expanding, monolithic (solid copper) bullet that create wound cavity by fluid transfer rather than expansion. It is more effective than JHP so I no longer concern myself with expansion. It also offers barrier penetration that puts JHP duty ammo to shame. I have no need for + type ammo.
I am taking a different stance on the topic of +P+ ammo. I did a lot of research and test firing before deciding on 95 grain Underwood Extreme Defender ammo for my PPS M2 with its 3.18 inch barrel. Below are the stats on that ammo according to pressure rating.
Standard: Velocity = 1400. Energy = 395 ft. Lbs. Penetration = 15 inches
+P: Velocity = 1475. Energy = 435 ft. Lbs. Penetration = 16 inches
+P+ Velocity = 1550. Energy = 480 ft. Lbs. Penetration. = 17 inches
The three rounds all meet the FBI penetration specification of 12 to 18 inches. The +P+ does penetrate the deepest and it has 85 more ft. Lbs. of muzzle energy. That is a 22% increase. However what is the net gain of that extra energy in a handgun used at CQB distances. Answer is that there is no conclusive testing to rely on for the answer. Theory is all we have to go on. So consider the following.
To be good defensive round it should penetrate 12 to 18 inches in organic gel covers with 4 layers of denim. This is from a description of the FBI ammo testing.
Penetration depths between 14.0-16.0 inches in the gelatin blocks are rewarded while under-penetration and penetration over 18.0” are penalized. Given that the FBI Protocol came to be due to an otherwise fatal hit that failed to stop one of the Miami shooters, due to under-penetration, bullets that penetrate less than 12.0” are penalized heavily …………………
So it seems that 14 to 16 inches of penetration are preferred by the FBI. Fo my ammo Standard and +P meet that parameter. My round falls between the two depths. A good read with more info on FBI testing is at: http://www.brassfetcher.com/FBI Ammunition Protocol/FBI Ammunition Protocol.html
Higher velocities generally serve to make JHP ammo expand more reliably. Too much expansion will slow the bullet down inside the target. Too little or no expansion will cause JHP to act like FMJ and over-penetrate. So the benefit of over-standard pressure round is generally deeper penetration and more reliable expansion. But compare the difference between +P and +P+ in the comparison I made above. +P+ is 75 ft/sec and 45 ft. Lbs. more than +P and offers an unnecessary 1 inch more penetration. That is practically meaning less in a gunfight.
If you do the research I believe you will find that the eight of JHP bullet is more important than velocity when it comes to making a more damaging wound. At least that was what I found when I went to 9mm from 40 SW and from a 4 inch to a 3.18 inch barrel. I settled on Federal HST 147 grain JHP. It is lethal and meets FBI specs out of a 3” barrel. I do not need rounds that are greater than standard pressure to defend myself.
About a year ago I switched to Underwood Extreme Defender 95 grain ammo at standard pressure. It is a expanding, monolithic (solid copper) bullet that create wound cavity by fluid transfer rather than expansion. It is more effective than JHP so I no longer concern myself with expansion. It also offers barrier penetration that puts JHP duty ammo to shame. I have no need for + type ammo.
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