Striker fired 'non commanded discharges' again in the news

[Mark_Mark]

Washington State Police NCD's

The issues dogging Sig with their 'non commanded discharges' involving the 320 pistol seem to continue, and had me wondering:
With the spring tensioned cruciform/striker, or sear/striker (the terminology will differ) interface on a striker-fired pistol, would it be possible for vibration over days/weeks to INCREMENTALLY reduce engagement?

In other words, could the unavoidable vibration and minor impacts of a gun, especially one carried in a duty holster slowly, over time, reduce the engagement of the sear/cruciform/whatever with the striker, eventually cumulatively leading to a 'non-commanded discharge'?

As a corollary, does anyone regularly reload their pistol to ensure its striker engagement is reset to its fully engaged state?

I know there's been significant drop and impact testing, especially on Sig's 320, but has any ever checked for this incremental disengagement via vibration?


Note I'm not saying this IS happening; just curious if it's ever been considered.

Larry

I regularly dry fire my gun to reset whatever need to be rested. Also, the amount of junk that gets into your gun is crazy!

 

[Alllen Bundy]

Well. To start. It had to go back to sig to run right (which, by itself is fine, i had to have HK’s go back), it had light strikes, 1-3 times per mag.

That is unfortunate. I have a P365, a P365XL and a P365 Fuse. I've used 12 different brands/types of ammo haven't had any malfunctions of any kind. But the stripper rail on my P365 was so rough that it was difficult to retract the slide over a magazine loaded to capacity. Less than 10 minutes of polishing cured the issue. But it wasnt an issue with my P365XL or P365 Fuse. The trigger linkage bar on ALL P365 series pistols needs to be polished where it contacts the sear lever arm and the striker safety lever, otherwise the trigger feels gritty.

...but then there was rust issues. I carry all my guns the same way for the last 20 years. Never had rust problens. That P365 would rust soo fast (slide, barrel and sights). I did not have 1000 rounds thru it and it started peening in places I never seen before. Barrel hood, breech face and barrel lug. Enough where i had to file it down. What kind of metal are they using? The night sights quit on one side. How do night sights fail less than a year?

I haven't had any rust issues with any of the three 3 P365 series pistols that I own. But I have seen considerable variation in Sig's quality control, and others have made the same complaint. Although I mostly heard people complaining about rust issues with the P365 Fuse.

I did have a night sight fail, but that was only after a Sig holster malfunction that allowed my pistol to fall to the floor onto the sight. I'm using a Sig holster, but I redesigned the retention system.

With your experience I can understand why you sold your P365.

 

[Alllen Bundy]

If a gun fires while holstered (not while being holstered), a reasonable person would consider that uncommanded, given the standard definition of "commanded". There are a couple of videos floating around out there showing P320s going off while in the holster.

But we do not KNOW that the pistol fired uncommanded. We do not KNOW whether or not there were foreign objects inside the holster that actuated the trigger, or if the holster itself actuated the trigger, or if maintenance was so poor that it caused the discharge. A reasonable person does NOT make assumptions.

If a pistol DID fire inside a holster, you would want to do everything possible to determine the root cause of the problem. But that has clearly not been done yet. And that is the frustrating part. For now it is still speculation.

I don't trust Sig either. There are a number of questionable design choices in the P320 as well as questionable quality control. If someone sent one of these P320s back to Sig they should have performed an analysis to determine if anything did fail. But does Sig have the integrity to have reported a problem if they found one? With the original drop fire problem they should have recalled EVERY P320 and performed the upgrades. But they did not.

When Sig stated that you should NOT manually chamber a P365 I e-mailed them and asked if they have performed ANY manual chambering testing with the P365 and they responded by saying that they did NOT share test data! THAT is VERY shady! I can understand why you might not share test information on a prototype, but test data on production designs should be available to any customer. If you know where to look you can find the test data on the UL safety testing that I performed on switching electronic power supplies. ANY potential customer had access to my safety testing data.

 

[JohnKSa]

But we do not KNOW that the pistol fired uncommanded. We do not KNOW whether or not there were foreign objects inside the holster that actuated the trigger, or if the holster itself actuated the trigger, or if maintenance was so poor that it caused the discharge. A reasonable person does NOT make assumptions.

It's not a matter of making assumptions, it's a simple matter of the definition of "uncommanded".

Unless the user took some action (either intentionally or unintentionally) to fire the gun (i.e. commanded the gun to fire), it was "uncommanded", by definition.

Pulling the trigger intentionally would be an example of an intentional commanded discharge. Pushing the gun into a holster where there is an obstruction such that the action of reholstering operates the trigger and causes the gun to fire would be an example of an unintentional commanded discharge.

A pistol going off when accidentally dropped is an example of an uncommanded discharge. A pistol going off as the result of an impact is an example of an uncommanded discharge. A pistol going off in a case or holster with all the controls inaccessible to the user is an example of an uncommanded discharge.

If a pistol DID fire inside a holster, you would want to do everything possible to determine the root cause of the problem.

Absolutely! In fact, it's much more critical to understand why that is happening because it likely indicates a problem with both the holster and the gun. Furthermore the problems are ones that the user can not address with mitigation techniques until the cause is known.

But that has clearly not been done yet. And that is the frustrating part.

It is frustrating. I don't know what testing has been done, but clearly there's something missing in the analysis. When a holstered gun goes off as the result of a police officer getting out of his patrol vehicle (to cite one example that's on video), I can not believe that a proper analysis of the gun/holster system would not provide at least some evidence of root cause.

...they responded by saying that they did NOT share test data! THAT is VERY shady!

I strongly suspect that you would get exactly the same results from that question regardless of what gun company you asked. I'm not going to argue it's the way it should be, but that seems to be the way it is.

 

[Walkalong]

When Sig stated that you should NOT manually chamber a P365 I e-mailed them and asked if they have performed ANY manual chambering testing with the P365 and they responded by saying that they did NOT share test data!

Interesting, but hand chambering a round and dropping the slide on it is bad for a number of reasons, can be bad for extractors, theoretically it could fire as if dropped if it's a poor design. Shouldn't of course.

 

[jmorris]

Sorry if it's a repeat.

CASE DISMISSED: POLICE OFFICER ADMITS HIS SIG SAUER P320 PISTOL CANNOT DISCHARGE WITHOUT A TRIGGER PULL

www.sigsauer.com

NEWINGTON, NH (March 13, 2025) – SIG SAUER is pleased to announce the United States District Court for the District of Puerto Rico has officially entered an Order dismissing the lawsuit (Berrios v. Sig Sauer) alleging the P320 service weapon of police officer Elvis Ramon Green Berrios (the “Plaintiff”) discharged without the trigger being pulled. Mr. Berrios voluntarily dismissed his action against SIG SAUER admitting in court filed documents that his P320 pistol has no defects and does not discharge without a trigger pull.

 

[MEHavey]

Veeeeeeeely intelesting.....

 

[Robbins290]

Sorry if it's a repeat.

CASE DISMISSED: POLICE OFFICER ADMITS HIS SIG SAUER P320 PISTOL CANNOT DISCHARGE WITHOUT A TRIGGER PULL

www.sigsauer.com

I would bet money he was paid out like the others.

 

[DT Guy]

I lack the in-depth knowledge of the 320 to judge the merits of this argument, but this particular investigator does seem reasoned and rational; I don't get a 'click-bait' or 'fan boy' vibe.

Can anyone with more experience comment on whether this seems reasonable?




Larry

 

[trackskippy]

If youre modifying a gun with malfunctioning factory parts, anything you do going forward puts anything negative that happens on you. If replacement factory parts don't fix it, get a different gun.

If you absolutely have to have or keep the SIG, let SIG fix it. Its their mess, let them clean it up and make it right.

 

[Walkalong]

If youre modifying a gun with malfunctioning factory parts, anything you do going forward puts anything negative that happens on you

YP>

 

[someguy2800]

Sorry if it's a repeat.

CASE DISMISSED: POLICE OFFICER ADMITS HIS SIG SAUER P320 PISTOL CANNOT DISCHARGE WITHOUT A TRIGGER PULL

www.sigsauer.com

After the settlement check cleared he had an incredible epiphany that he had in fact pulled the trigger all along.

 

[someguy2800]

If youre modifying a gun with malfunctioning factory parts, anything you do going forward puts anything negative that happens on you. If replacement factory parts don't fix it, get a different gun.

If you absolutely have to have or keep the SIG, let SIG fix it. Its their mess, let them clean it up and make it right.

Yeah at this point we don't even know if their hypothesis for what is happening is even correct so I think modifying the gun and then hoping for the best is a bit premature.

 

[5-SHOTS]

I lack the in-depth knowledge of the 320 to judge the merits of this argument, but this particular investigator does seem reasoned and rational; I don't get a 'click-bait' or 'fan boy' vibe.

Can anyone with more experience comment on whether this seems reasonable?




Larry

He made the sear just like the one on the P365. There's nothing that blocks the sear to go down except the sear return sprig(s) but now, at least, the sear movement is indipendent from the firing pin safety movement. So now, if the sear goes down for whatever reason and the striker is released, the firing pin safety should block the striker 100% of the time (hopefully).
Something like a 4 pounds lateral force on the trigger still makes the pistol to go bang so a trigger safety is still needed badly.

 

[DT Guy]

Phil Strader has always had a good reputation, from what I've heard. I can say he does a MUCH better job of addressing the concerns that the 'maroon' running their PR department.




Larry

 

[Gordon]

Phil Strader has always had a good reputation, from what I've heard. I can say he does a MUCH better job of addressing the concerns that the 'maroon' running their PR department.




Larry

YES! Absolutely the TRUTH , less the Lawyers spin trying to hit the Lottery from the BIg Bad evil corporations. Here is an interesting an relatively new explanation of the FCU of the 320 and what it would take to go off uncommanded

The Sig P320 Safety Issues Explained (allegedly)

www.youtube.com

 

[TomJ]

Phil Strader has always had a good reputation, from what I've heard. I can say he does a MUCH better job of addressing the concerns that the 'maroon' running their PR department.




Larry

I'm a third of the way through the video and will watch the remainder later tonight. I want Sig, and all companies in the firearms industry to do well as there's no benefit to us if companies don't put out quality, safe products. I'm not a Sig basher and own two P365's as well as a P226, P229 and P220. I do know, however, that when I was an early buyer of the P365, had problems and spoke with Sig about it they claimed there was nothing wrong with the design and the reports of the problems were internet hype. They ultimately rebuild mine with the resigned parts and had no answer for me when I asked why they needed to redesign parts for a design that had no problems. I was also an early buyer of the P320, and when reports of their drop safety issue surfaced and I spoke with their customer service department about this issue. I was again told it was internet hype. Once again they had no answer for me when I asked why they were doing a "voluntary upgrade" for a gun that had no design problems. Again, I'm not rooting against them but based on my history with them don't believe them when they tell me there's no problem with the P320.

 

[DT Guy]

As the OP, full disclosure; I have (and carry) a 365, a 365XL and a 1911 Nightmare Carry from Sig.

This is in spite of being told they would not pay shipping for service on the 1911 after the disconnector CRUMBLED in less than 500 rounds. It's fair to say I'm predisposed to be skeptical of Sig's quality, especially after looking closely at that disconnector and seeing the level of machining on my $1,200 1911:

Larry

 

[trackskippy]

I'm a third of the way through the video and will watch the remainder later tonight. I want Sig, and all companies in the firearms industry to do well as there's no benefit to us if companies don't put out quality, safe products. I'm not a Sig basher and own two P365's as well as a P226, P229 and P220. I do know, however, that when I was an early buyer of the P365, had problems and spoke with Sig about it they claimed there was nothing wrong with the design and the reports of the problems were internet hype. They ultimately rebuild mine with the resigned parts and had no answer for me when I asked why they needed to redesign parts for a design that had no problems. I was also an early buyer of the P320, and when reports of their drop safety issue surfaced and I spoke with their customer service department about this issue. I was again told it was internet hype. Once again they had no answer for me when I asked why they were doing a "voluntary upgrade" for a gun that had no design problems. Again, I'm not rooting against them but based on my history with them don't believe them when they tell me there's no problem with the P320.

I've always liked the older P series guns, had a bunch of them, and always had good luck with them. Still have a few too.

Then I bought a P238 and ran into what you did when I contacted SIG CS about the issues I was having. I got the distinct impression they didn't want to hear about it and pretty much blew me off.

I guess you can say I was yet another who contributed to the internet hype about them, and got rid of it shortly after.

Guess I still am too. They better hope my P320 doesn't start going off by itself.

 

[5-SHOTS]

Phil Strader has always had a good reputation, from what I've heard. I can say he does a MUCH better job of addressing the concerns that the 'maroon' running their PR department.




Larry

Judging by the comments under the video, I could say that the cure has been worse than the disease. I don't think it was good publicity for that YouTube channel. Some of the statements and justifications are laughable to say the least. For example, I'd love to see a Springfield Armory XD going off while in the holster whatever object is putted in the trigger guard. Or I'd like to see how the P320 is more popular than the Glock or is more carried by police officers and civilians. I'm still trying to figure out what the justification was as to why there aren't as many accidents recorded with the P365 as with the P320. How about the "unreasonable drop tests" that other manufacturers can pass in the first place without a "voluntary upgrade program"?

 

[EMC45]

As the OP, full disclosure; I have (and carry) a 365, a 365XL and a 1911 Nightmare Carry from Sig.

This is in spite of being told they would not pay shipping for service on the 1911 after the disconnector CRUMBLED in less than 500 rounds. It's fair to say I'm predisposed to be skeptical of Sig's quality, especially after looking closely at that disconnector and seeing the level of machining on my $1,200 1911:

Larry

That fly cutter was dull or picked up a chip

 

[DT Guy]

That fly cutter was dull or picked up a chip

Now look at the cuts for the magazine well and their SSII safety; it's not just the deck, it's the entire thing.

Larry

 

[EMC45]

Now look at the cuts for the magazine well and their SSII safety; it's not just the deck, it's the entire thing.

Larry

Also notice where the ejector is seated and all the leftover "swarf" and burrs.

 

[5-SHOTS]

I'd say the internal machining of my dirt cheap Norinco TT-Olympia is very similar.

 

[tarosean]

It's fair to say I'm predisposed to be skeptical of Sig's quality, especially after looking closely at that disconnector and seeing the level of machining on my $1,200 1911:

Larry

Impressive workmanship indeed..