Striker fired 'non commanded discharges' again in the news

[someguy2800]

I can't confirm this is true but someone posted in reddit that this is the gun and holster from the video above. It is a Tier 1 Concealment MSP holster. Someone else posted that it is a Grey Guns slide and trigger shoe. That makes it extra funny because Bruce Gray is the most ardent denier of P320 problem there is.







From Bruce Gray 3 days ago (LOL)

 

[Alllen Bundy]

And we are STILL waiting for someone to actually recreate the alleged uncommanded discharges. Until someone can actually create the uncommanded discharge and explain how it happens, we don't really know if the discharges are truly uncommanded. Or if they are legitimate uncommanded discharges, we don't know if it is a malfunction prone design, or a parts quality issue, or a user maintenance problem, or a combination of all three issues.

 

[Hugger-4641]

And we are STILL waiting for someone to actually recreate the alleged uncommanded discharges. Until someone can actually create the uncommanded discharge and explain how it happens, we don't really know if the discharges are truly uncommanded. Or if they are legitimate uncommanded discharges, we don't know if it is a malfunction prone design, or a parts quality issue, or a user maintenance problem, or a combination of all three issues.

Pretty hard to recreate something when you don't know all the details, and details matter. How are you going to put the pistol in a holster, carry it around until it goes off, then figure out what caused it?
I think the most recently posted videos clearly show there is a difference in the sear and trigger bar actions in identical P320's and this likely has something to do with the failures. You can keep denying if you want, and your 320 may not ever have an issue. I owned and shot Rem 700's for years and never knew about thier problem until it happened to me.
Sooner or later the issue will be narrowed down. Likely it is a small percentage of 320's that have the flaw , but I think it's pretty clear from thier actions so far that , even if Sig knows what the problem is, they're not going to tell us. Stay tuned though, enough people are digging into this now that a definitive answer is bound to come out soon.

 

[Alllen Bundy]

Pretty hard to recreate something when you don't know all the details, and details matter.

Actually, if you actually have the alledged defective pistol it's not that difficult. You start by carefully examining every part, noting it's condition, whether or not it meets it's dimensional tolerance, whether the parts are lubricated and/or contaminated, etc. You analyze the operation of the pistol and determine which parts need to operate incorrectly in order to have an uncommanded discharge. you also look at the way the pistol as being carried so you know what kind of forces the past inside the pistol might see. You might apply force to parts in every direction to see if that can induce a failure. As an example, you would apply force to both the sear and the striker foot to see if there is any combination of force that cn separate them.

You also examine the holster to see if there is anyway way that the trigger can be actuated inside the holster.

How are you going to put the pistol in a holster, carry it around until it goes off, then figure out what caused it?

If you can find a way to make a pistol fire uncommanded outside of a holster, you can probably figure a way to apply forces to the outside holster to cause it to fire.

This type of failure analysis gets done frequently in the manufacturing industry. I worked in product development and failure analysis was an important part of my job when a new design failed during testing.

 

[Hugger-4641]

Actually, if you actually have the alledged defective pistol it's not that difficult. You start by carefully examining every part, noting it's condition, whether or not it meets it's dimensional tolerance, whether the parts are lubricated and/or contaminated, etc. You analyze the operation of the pistol and determine which parts need to operate incorrectly in order to have an uncommanded discharge. you also look at the way the pistol as being carried so you know what kind of forces the past inside the pistol might see. You might apply force to parts in every direction to see if that can induce a failure. As an example, you would apply force to both the sear and the striker foot to see if there is any combination of force that cn separate them.

You also examine the holster to see if there is anyway way that the trigger can be actuated inside the holster.



If you can find a way to make a pistol fire uncommanded outside of a holster, you can probably figure a way to apply forces to the outside holster to cause it to fire.

This type of failure analysis gets done frequently in the manufacturing industry. I worked in product development and failure analysis was an important part of my job when a new design failed during testing.

I don't disagree with anything you said, but with the exception of the gun he's experimenting with in the video, as far as I know, all of the incident guns that discharged have been sent in to Sig, and the story ends there.
We need someone who has one that's had an uncommanded discharged to examine it or have it examine by professional gun smiths instead of sending it to Sig.

 

[someguy2800]

I suspect this may be a case like the Remington 700 trigger where the sun and moon need to align in just the precise way to cause the fault such that it's like a 1 in 100,000 chance that it happens, and even if you have a gun that you know has done it in the past, it's no guarantee you can get it to reproduce the fault.

One thing I would like to see tested is to take a P320 that has fired uncommanded and do a cutaway on the slide and frame so the sear interface can be observed. Then put the gun in a fixture that moves the slide up and down on its tails and see if the sear can be made to walk off the firing pin. I would also be interested to see if you cycle the slide 1000 times, does the firing pin land in the same place on the sear every time. It may be you need to have the sear land in a certain way that only happens 1 out of 10,000 times, and then the slide needs to be moved in just the right way to get it to slip off. Ay be a daunting task to reproduce.

 

[someguy2800]

I still contend though that we really don't need to know why it's happening, the fact that it is happening is all I need to know. Like I said in another thread, I don't need to know the biological mechanism by which benzine causes cancer to know that I don't want it in my drinking water.

 

[Boom Vang]

I suspect this may be a case like the Remington 700 trigger where the sun and moon need to align in just the precise way to cause the fault such that it's like a 1 in 100,000 chance that it happens, and even if you have a gun that you know has done it in the past, it's no guarantee you can get it to reproduce the fault.

The Walker trigger did not need the planets in alignment to experience an unintended discharge. Typical routine maintenance or wear could cause it. It has been well-proven that Remington knew the trigger was problematic and potentially dangerous, and ignored it, preferring to DENY the problem and settle claims when necessary. Despicable.

Draw your own conclusions to the present controversy.

 

[someguy2800]

The Walker trigger did not need the planets in alignment to experience an unintended discharge. Typical routine maintenance or wear could cause it. It has been well-proven that Remington knew the trigger was problematic and potentially dangerous, and ignored it, preferring to DENY the problem and settle claims when necessary. Despicable.

Draw your own conclusions to the present controversy.

The point being though that once a walker trigger fired uncommanded you can not always get it to repeat the fault. That made it difficult to hold Remington responsible because they would hire some independent expert to examine the gun, who would say we couldn't get the gun to fire without pulling the trigger in court.

 

[Alllen Bundy]

I don't disagree with anything you said, but with the exception of the gun he's experimenting with in the video, as far as I know, all of the incident guns that discharged have been sent in to Sig, and the story ends there.
We need someone who has one that's had an uncommanded discharged to examine it or have it examine by professional gun smiths instead of sending it to Sig.

Sending the evidence of a firearm malfunctioning back to the manufacture is like using a fox to guard the hen house. Those malfunctioning P320s absolutely need to be sent to someone that is independent and unbiased. That could be part of the reason nobody has recreated the uncommanded discharge.

Trying to find a firearm with a defect in a huge batch of firearms may be difficult. But once you have a firearm that has exhibited a defect, it should NOT be that difficult to recreate the defect.

 

[InTheSwamp]

Chicago PD just abandoned the P320.

Not that I shot my Sig M17 P320 much, as I bought it to have one due to military acceptance. But it’s going to remain unloaded. Maybe I’ll get my money back when a class action happens with all of this and return it to Sig. I have no desire to own or shoot it.

If Glock was a publicly traded company, now would be the time to invest, I’ll just leave it at that.

You can use it as an angle square in the meantime.

 

[someguy2800]

The new revised Sig P320 owners manual put up on the sig website contains some interesting new language and people took notice...

 

[EMC45]

"Without a round in the chamber"

Israeli commando style.

 

[Hugger-4641]

Yeah, that's gonna work real well for LE and military.

 

[5-SHOTS]

Without a round in the chamber, every semiautomatic pistol made from 1893 to the present is inherently safe to carry. You can safely carry whatever pistol you want that way, expecially a P320.

 

[someguy2800]

Firearms safety has been solved. Just don't load them. I want to extend a heartfelt thank you to SIG's legal team.

 

[sevt_chevelle]

That bolded response is all I need to know about the P320 and really Sig as a company in general.

Hopefully what LE that is still leashed to this turd finally flushes the toilet.

 

[BreechFace]

The new revised Sig P320 owners manual put up on the sig website contains some interesting new language and people took notice...

View attachment 1262132

View attachment 1262135

I had just posted a thread about this. Tells me all I need to know. Anyone want to buy a very little used Sig M18?

 

[9mmepiphany]

Firearms safety has been solved. Just don't load them. I want to extend a heartfelt thank you to SIG's legal team.

I'm pretty sure most owner's manuals have the same warning. I remember first reading it when I bought a S&W M19

 

[481]

Looks like SIG has managed to reproduce a classic concept—just in the form of a firearm:

 

[Steve762us]

And we are STILL waiting for someone to actually recreate the alleged uncommanded discharges. Until someone can actually create the uncommanded discharge and explain how it happens, we don't really know if the discharges are truly uncommanded. Or if they are legitimate uncommanded discharges, we don't know if it is a malfunction prone design, or a parts quality issue, or a user maintenance problem, or a combination of all three issues.

There's at least one vid of cop getting out of his cruiser, pistol holstered and hands no where near it, and it fires.

 

[Alllen Bundy]

There's at least one vid of cop getting out of his cruiser, pistol holstered and hands no where near it, and it fires.

But we have no knowledge that the holster was actually clear of foreign objects that could cause the trigger to be depressed. We also do not know if the holster was designed for that pistol and if the holster depressed the trigger, or if there was a defect in the holster that caused the trigger to be depressed, or whether or not the pistol pistol was reasonably maintained.

 

[Alllen Bundy]

Customers DO have a REASONABLE expectation that the P320 will NOT fire uncommanded under normal circumstances, even if there is a cartridge in the chamber. That would be implied in your agreement to purchase the pistol. You have a right that a product perform as reasonably expected and/or advertised.

We DO have reason to believe that high temperatures, such as those caused by a fire, will cause the pistol to discharge. So it is the owners responsibility to either store a pistol WITHOUT a cartridge in the chamber, or store it in a container that will contain the bullet if it fires uncommanded. So if you have pistols stashed around your home they need to be stored in a manner that a house fire will NOT cause the bullets to inure anyone if discharged.

I have a bullet stop built into my fanny pack holster that I wear while biking. I also have steel lockboxes, with additional layers of steel and/or aluminum inside in front of the muzzle, that will prevent the bullet from escaping the lockbox.

 

[someguy2800]

Customers DO have a REASONABLE expectation that the P320 will NOT fire uncommanded under normal circumstances, even if there is a cartridge in the chamber. That would be implied in your agreement to purchase the pistol. You have a right that a product perform as reasonably expected and/or advertised.

We DO have reason to believe that high temperatures, such as those caused by a fire, will cause the pistol to discharge. So it is the owners responsibility to either store a pistol WITHOUT a cartridge in the chamber, or store it in a container that will contain the bullet if it fires uncommanded. So if you have pistols stashed around your home they need to be stored in a manner that a house fire will NOT cause the bullets to inure anyone if discharged.

I have a bullet stop built into my fanny pack holster that I wear while biking. I also have steel lockboxes, with additional layers of steel and/or aluminum inside in front of the muzzle, that will prevent the bullet from escaping the lockbox.

 

[Steve762us]

But we have no knowledge that the holster was actually clear of foreign objects that could cause the trigger to be depressed. We also do not know if the holster was designed for that pistol and if the holster depressed the trigger, or if there was a defect in the holster that caused the trigger to be depressed, or whether or not the pistol pistol was reasonably maintained.

Correct-- but on the other hand, we have no reason to assume the pistol was NOT affected by any of the conditions you propose.

Given the potential consequences of an unintended, unmanaged discharge--death or serious injury--the argument "it might have been something else, we just don't know" seems woefully inadequate.