The Bushmaster
Member
Damn...I don't like # 3.
Stuck bullet: primer fires, but doesn't ignite powder
- Thread starter Thirties
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Thirties
Member
Bushmaster, I think all the oxygen is leaking out of this topic, and we're all about to pass out from boredom . . .
When I get the little gun back from the gunsmith, I can return to loading ammo for it and shooting the lil' darling.
In the meantime, I don't think we are improving the common good any more with this subject.
When I get the little gun back from the gunsmith, I can return to loading ammo for it and shooting the lil' darling.
In the meantime, I don't think we are improving the common good any more with this subject.
The Bushmaster
Member
Yeah...You're probably right. Incidently I have 3 S & W Mod 10. Two with 4" dress and a 2" (wife's). The two 4" smiths were Hong Kong Royal Police returns when Hong Kong changed to Wonder 9's. I got these cheap and brand new.
Next subject.. Bye..
Next subject.. Bye..
griz
Member
There was an article many years ago where Skeeter Skelton (I think) said he loaded up some rounds with powder left in a hopper for a long time. He said the rounds were very weak, and he later found it had badly echted the plastic in the hopper. But you are right, he said all of the rounds were bad, not just one.
I still don't believe that a primer alone would drive the bullet to the muzzle.
Especially in a revolver, where the cylinder/forcing cone gap would bleed off some of the already-low pressure. Usually those end up locking the cylinder, with the bullet halfway through the gap.
Primer pockets get my attention, especially when I noticed that I was creating my own potential problem. For a long time, I would decap and resize rounds, then tumble them one last time for a final finish before priming and charging the cases. What I had overlooked was the residual corn cob media lodged squarely in the flash hole or primer pocket, before the cases got primed. I never had any hangfires or misfires, and I attribute that to the primer blowing the contaminant out of the way before lighting off the powder charge. I caught it because I was doing a stretch ring test with one .30-06 case, and a piece of corn cob media fell out of the supposedly clean and empty case. Further investigation by holding the deprimed cases up to a light revealed several blocked flash holes.
Needless to say, I've changed my techniques.
I have, however, witnessed a fizz-bang (more of a fizz-pop) on two separate occasions. One was a beautiful Colt-Sauer in .458 Win Mag, that made the goofiest sizzling sound as the bullet went downrange, leaving the barrel heavily fouled with the unburnt extruded powder granules of IMR4198. We surmised that contaminated primers were the culprit, and the sizzling sound was the compressed powder charge wad burning as it stuck to the base of the bullet on the way downrange. The unburnt IMR4198 looked golden in color, probably because the deterrent coating had been flashed off?
The second fizzle I witnessed was with the owner of a Rolling Block in .45-70, again using IMR4198. (No connection to the Colt-Sauer incident) This time the 405gr cast bullet went about 6 inches up the barrel before stopping, with a big wad of unburnt IMR4198 stuck to the base of the bullet. Again, once the bullet and powder wad were tapped back out of the breech, the plug of extruded powder grains had a golden color. Odd, and we chalked it up to weak ignition from a primer with perhaps less priming compound than normal.
Especially in a revolver, where the cylinder/forcing cone gap would bleed off some of the already-low pressure. Usually those end up locking the cylinder, with the bullet halfway through the gap.
Primer pockets get my attention, especially when I noticed that I was creating my own potential problem. For a long time, I would decap and resize rounds, then tumble them one last time for a final finish before priming and charging the cases. What I had overlooked was the residual corn cob media lodged squarely in the flash hole or primer pocket, before the cases got primed. I never had any hangfires or misfires, and I attribute that to the primer blowing the contaminant out of the way before lighting off the powder charge. I caught it because I was doing a stretch ring test with one .30-06 case, and a piece of corn cob media fell out of the supposedly clean and empty case. Further investigation by holding the deprimed cases up to a light revealed several blocked flash holes.
Needless to say, I've changed my techniques.
I have, however, witnessed a fizz-bang (more of a fizz-pop) on two separate occasions. One was a beautiful Colt-Sauer in .458 Win Mag, that made the goofiest sizzling sound as the bullet went downrange, leaving the barrel heavily fouled with the unburnt extruded powder granules of IMR4198. We surmised that contaminated primers were the culprit, and the sizzling sound was the compressed powder charge wad burning as it stuck to the base of the bullet on the way downrange. The unburnt IMR4198 looked golden in color, probably because the deterrent coating had been flashed off?
The second fizzle I witnessed was with the owner of a Rolling Block in .45-70, again using IMR4198. (No connection to the Colt-Sauer incident) This time the 405gr cast bullet went about 6 inches up the barrel before stopping, with a big wad of unburnt IMR4198 stuck to the base of the bullet. Again, once the bullet and powder wad were tapped back out of the breech, the plug of extruded powder grains had a golden color. Odd, and we chalked it up to weak ignition from a primer with perhaps less priming compound than normal.
This has happened TWICE to me in the last month.
In a Smith Model 19 6". Plated Rainier 140 gr bullet. Unique, I forget the load, but the lowest listed. Fired in the cold. Both times I heard a nice sharp crack from the primer but felt no recoil so stopped and checked. First time, bullet stopped about 4" up the bore. Second time only about 1" of travel.
Now I use a single stage press and a Hornady powder measure. I eyeball all the cases in the loading block before putting in the bullet, to rule out double charge/no charge. BUT I ws using a pretty light charge and could easily have been fooled by a partial charge.
When setting up to throw a particular charge I throw 50 charges to settle the powder then begin weighing and adjusting. I noticed that occasionally I'd get a much lighter charge. Almost as if the Unique wasn't entering the metering chamber well, clumping or bridging. I began whacking the handle firmly after my first stuck round but it happened again.
My money is on a light charge. Should be less likely with 213 and that nice measure of yours, but I HAVE seen 231 and similar powders actually clump up, so you never know.
Also as others have said, crimp too light is another possibility. I still have the remaining 100 rds from the last fiasco, and I'm going home tonight and crimp 'em harder.
In a Smith Model 19 6". Plated Rainier 140 gr bullet. Unique, I forget the load, but the lowest listed. Fired in the cold. Both times I heard a nice sharp crack from the primer but felt no recoil so stopped and checked. First time, bullet stopped about 4" up the bore. Second time only about 1" of travel.
Now I use a single stage press and a Hornady powder measure. I eyeball all the cases in the loading block before putting in the bullet, to rule out double charge/no charge. BUT I ws using a pretty light charge and could easily have been fooled by a partial charge.
When setting up to throw a particular charge I throw 50 charges to settle the powder then begin weighing and adjusting. I noticed that occasionally I'd get a much lighter charge. Almost as if the Unique wasn't entering the metering chamber well, clumping or bridging. I began whacking the handle firmly after my first stuck round but it happened again.
My money is on a light charge. Should be less likely with 213 and that nice measure of yours, but I HAVE seen 231 and similar powders actually clump up, so you never know.
Also as others have said, crimp too light is another possibility. I still have the remaining 100 rds from the last fiasco, and I'm going home tonight and crimp 'em harder.
sigma40sw
Member
This has happened to me too!
I have just read this thread and it has been interesting. Back in the 80's when I shot alot of 38 ammo, I puchased 1,000 rds of some German imported 158gr JHP ammo. I was using my 2" S&W Mod 15 at a night shoot, I triggered off 5 rds and could not fire the 6th, the cylinder would not turn.
Shined a flaslight on my Mod 15 and I saw the samething as the begining picture of this thread, a bullet sticking halfway out of the muzzle.
To make a long story short, I had "5" bullets stuck in a 2" barrel,the base of the 5th was still in the cylinder preventing it from rotating. Took it home and ran a drill through the bullets and drove them back until the cylinder would open, and I drove the rest of them out. There was unburned powder everywhere. Now being German factory loaded ammo what could be the problem??? Looked the gun over,no bulges,timing was OK. So I took it back to the range shot 8 more rds slow fire and the 8th was stuck in the barrel. Took it home pounded it out and started checking that ammo. I pulled bullets measured charges for 25 rds, all seemed to be the same, then I discovered that some bullets would easily push back in the case by pushing them against the bench. Now I have another 950 rds of this stuff, what to do with it?
What I chose to do was RECRIMP all the rounds with a firm roll crimp.
EVERYONE fired without a problem after the recrimp. You need a certain amount of bullet retention (more burn dewell time)to get the proper burn with light charges.
So my guess is, not enough bullet crimp. Cases vary in thickness from lot to lot by manufacture and from manufacture to manufacturer. So maybe it was a combination of a thinner walled case and your crimp allowed a poor burn of your charge to take place..
My experiance with plated bullets has been by the time you have a good roll crimp you have cracked the plating and accuracy goes to hell. I now taper crimp all my plated loads for that reason. I am currently shooting IDPA with a S&W 65. My load is 158gr Berry's Plated RN,4.5 gr of WW231,Win SP primers and any 38spl. case I can stuff. All rounds are taper crimped and I have never had a problem with them.
Sigma40sw
I have just read this thread and it has been interesting. Back in the 80's when I shot alot of 38 ammo, I puchased 1,000 rds of some German imported 158gr JHP ammo. I was using my 2" S&W Mod 15 at a night shoot, I triggered off 5 rds and could not fire the 6th, the cylinder would not turn.
Shined a flaslight on my Mod 15 and I saw the samething as the begining picture of this thread, a bullet sticking halfway out of the muzzle.
To make a long story short, I had "5" bullets stuck in a 2" barrel,the base of the 5th was still in the cylinder preventing it from rotating. Took it home and ran a drill through the bullets and drove them back until the cylinder would open, and I drove the rest of them out. There was unburned powder everywhere. Now being German factory loaded ammo what could be the problem??? Looked the gun over,no bulges,timing was OK. So I took it back to the range shot 8 more rds slow fire and the 8th was stuck in the barrel. Took it home pounded it out and started checking that ammo. I pulled bullets measured charges for 25 rds, all seemed to be the same, then I discovered that some bullets would easily push back in the case by pushing them against the bench. Now I have another 950 rds of this stuff, what to do with it?
What I chose to do was RECRIMP all the rounds with a firm roll crimp.
EVERYONE fired without a problem after the recrimp. You need a certain amount of bullet retention (more burn dewell time)to get the proper burn with light charges.
So my guess is, not enough bullet crimp. Cases vary in thickness from lot to lot by manufacture and from manufacture to manufacturer. So maybe it was a combination of a thinner walled case and your crimp allowed a poor burn of your charge to take place..
My experiance with plated bullets has been by the time you have a good roll crimp you have cracked the plating and accuracy goes to hell. I now taper crimp all my plated loads for that reason. I am currently shooting IDPA with a S&W 65. My load is 158gr Berry's Plated RN,4.5 gr of WW231,Win SP primers and any 38spl. case I can stuff. All rounds are taper crimped and I have never had a problem with them.
Sigma40sw
Thirties
Member
The crimp is something I'll keep an eye on. As these were plated lead bullets, I had set a gentle roll crimp fearing damage to the bullet. Also I was using mixed brass which would allow for some shorter cases to be even less crimped.
When I get the gun back I'm going to play around in a methodical way with all the things mentioned here so I can learn from it.
With all the ammo I've fired in my two 4" S&W K frames for the past two years, with no such problems, why the devil did this happen while shooting my 2" Colt snubnose the third session I'd ever had with her? I'm not "blaming" the gun here. I'm trying to get at the cause. Besides, I love that Colt Detective Special.
So far I like the following suspects:
¤ cold temperature
¤ dirty primer pockets
¤ powder too long in reservoir
¤ weak roll crimp
¤ oddball bum primer
Thank you all for the time you spent thinking about my problem . . .
When I get the gun back I'm going to play around in a methodical way with all the things mentioned here so I can learn from it.
With all the ammo I've fired in my two 4" S&W K frames for the past two years, with no such problems, why the devil did this happen while shooting my 2" Colt snubnose the third session I'd ever had with her? I'm not "blaming" the gun here. I'm trying to get at the cause. Besides, I love that Colt Detective Special.
So far I like the following suspects:
¤ cold temperature
¤ dirty primer pockets
¤ powder too long in reservoir
¤ weak roll crimp
¤ oddball bum primer
Thank you all for the time you spent thinking about my problem . . .
sigma40sw
Member
Thirties,
If you use a taper crimp,case length is not as critical. Most Revolver die sets come with the roll crimp die,but you can buy seperate taper crimp dies.
I also crimp seperatly from seating the bullet. Less chace of the case mouth damaging the plating. I also tend to bell the case more so the plated bullet easily starts into the case. All these little things help.
Sigma40sw
If you use a taper crimp,case length is not as critical. Most Revolver die sets come with the roll crimp die,but you can buy seperate taper crimp dies.
I also crimp seperatly from seating the bullet. Less chace of the case mouth damaging the plating. I also tend to bell the case more so the plated bullet easily starts into the case. All these little things help.
Sigma40sw
Thirties
Member
Sigma, thanks. I use a Redding profile crimp die which is their name for roll crimp. And, yes, I always crimp in the 4th position in a separate step. I also bell the mouth so the bullets can be hand started more easily.
I know I was crimping on the light side in that instance. I'll screw 'er in deeper next time. I'd like to try that before getting a taper crimp die for .38spl.
I know I was crimping on the light side in that instance. I'll screw 'er in deeper next time. I'd like to try that before getting a taper crimp die for .38spl.
sigma40sw
Member
Thirties,
Another thought on crimp, if too light the bullets will move forward in the cylinder (out of the case) while the gun is being fired. This would also change your powders burning property, especialy with very light loads.
My 38/357 taper crimp die was purchased from Redding,they make geat dies.
Sigma40sw
Another thought on crimp, if too light the bullets will move forward in the cylinder (out of the case) while the gun is being fired. This would also change your powders burning property, especialy with very light loads.
My 38/357 taper crimp die was purchased from Redding,they make geat dies.
Sigma40sw
Master Blaster
Member
Reduce the amount you are belling the case, to just enough that the bullet will stand on the case mouth, the absolute minimum!!!!!!
sigma40sw
Member
I tried reducing the belling and it just caused me more problems than it was worth. If the bullet moved at all when going into the seating die, the sharp edge of the case will catch and crack or peel the thin plating on these bullets.
This methood works fine for FMJ's, but not plated. Anything that breaks the plating causes inaccuracy using these bullets.
Also using a progressive press (Dillon 550), it speeds up my loading time if I don't have to fiddle with each bullet set on a case. I only bell enough so the bullet just sits down inside the case mouth. That way it can't hurt the plating and also allows the bullet to sit straight when entering the seating die.
I will admit it may reduce case life,but after 5 or 6 loadings I dump them anyway. Using a progressive press has some different technics,then using a single stage, where you have more control over the case.
sigma40sw
This methood works fine for FMJ's, but not plated. Anything that breaks the plating causes inaccuracy using these bullets.
Also using a progressive press (Dillon 550), it speeds up my loading time if I don't have to fiddle with each bullet set on a case. I only bell enough so the bullet just sits down inside the case mouth. That way it can't hurt the plating and also allows the bullet to sit straight when entering the seating die.
I will admit it may reduce case life,but after 5 or 6 loadings I dump them anyway. Using a progressive press has some different technics,then using a single stage, where you have more control over the case.
sigma40sw
Deavis
Member
Thanks for the link Thirties on the WW231.
Every once in a while I switch calibers and leave the powder measure loaded. For instance, I ran out of Sig brass and finished loading some forty. So, I just switched out toolheads but I haven't seen any issue with the rounds I loaded. I would be pretty shocked to learn that the plastic Dillon is using would be susceptible to a reaction with gun powder. It is completely possible but I would like to think that they checked that out. I'll send them an email and see what they say about it.
Every once in a while I switch calibers and leave the powder measure loaded. For instance, I ran out of Sig brass and finished loading some forty. So, I just switched out toolheads but I haven't seen any issue with the rounds I loaded. I would be pretty shocked to learn that the plastic Dillon is using would be susceptible to a reaction with gun powder. It is completely possible but I would like to think that they checked that out. I'll send them an email and see what they say about it.
Hats off once again to THR
Another case of a shooting problem solved just by asking about it here. I had about 90 rounds left of my 140 gr plated bullet/Unique 5.1 gr/Rem 1 1/2 primer load which twice stuck the bullet in the bore as described. I went home and re-crimped them more firmly after reading the comments here.
Today every cartridge fired with a nice crack and noticeably brisker recoil than before. No stuck bullets, no squibs. And the accuracy, though not tested on paper (It's 10 degrees outside, I didn't linger), seems pretty good: I was hitting soda cans at 25 yds quite regularly.
It has really paid off to belong to THR!
Another case of a shooting problem solved just by asking about it here. I had about 90 rounds left of my 140 gr plated bullet/Unique 5.1 gr/Rem 1 1/2 primer load which twice stuck the bullet in the bore as described. I went home and re-crimped them more firmly after reading the comments here.
Today every cartridge fired with a nice crack and noticeably brisker recoil than before. No stuck bullets, no squibs. And the accuracy, though not tested on paper (It's 10 degrees outside, I didn't linger), seems pretty good: I was hitting soda cans at 25 yds quite regularly.
It has really paid off to belong to THR!
ClarkEMyers
Member
Older measures certainly reacted
CAn't speak to current plastics but older plastics certainly reacted - said to be in proportion to the nitroglycerin content. Many older measures will show discoloration toward the base. Folks who broke bulk and sold especially shotgun powders in milk jars found a reaction as well.
CAn't speak to current plastics but older plastics certainly reacted - said to be in proportion to the nitroglycerin content. Many older measures will show discoloration toward the base. Folks who broke bulk and sold especially shotgun powders in milk jars found a reaction as well.
Only1asterisk suggested powder position. Since single action shots were ok, but the first double action shot resulted in a problem, it may be possible that single action cocking raised the muzzle and positioned the powder on the primer whereas double action shooting started with the powder away from the primer.
Thirties
Member
Khornet, you mentioned tightening up the crimp. I loaded some new rounds just as before but with a tighter crimp.
I shot them in another Colt DS, and had very good results. I also loaded a batch with 3.7 grains of W231 instead of the original 3.6 grains, and they shot even better.
I've learned many lessons form this. Among them these are the most important:
1) always clean primer pockets
2) always empty powder measure reservoir after each session
I am now thinking that I had a poorly seated primer in combination with a lightly crimped case, some very cold weather, a round that fell in the snow, not using Titegroup, and possibly a light striking hammer on my used Colt DS (still waiting for the gunsmith's phote call).
Anyway, I appreciate all the positive info here. The photo is not a fake. It really did happen. I'll check in again when I've spoken with the 'smith.
.
I shot them in another Colt DS, and had very good results. I also loaded a batch with 3.7 grains of W231 instead of the original 3.6 grains, and they shot even better.
I've learned many lessons form this. Among them these are the most important:
1) always clean primer pockets
2) always empty powder measure reservoir after each session
I am now thinking that I had a poorly seated primer in combination with a lightly crimped case, some very cold weather, a round that fell in the snow, not using Titegroup, and possibly a light striking hammer on my used Colt DS (still waiting for the gunsmith's phote call).
Anyway, I appreciate all the positive info here. The photo is not a fake. It really did happen. I'll check in again when I've spoken with the 'smith.
.
Thirties
Member
I spoke with the gunsmith today. He knocked out the bullet, checked the gun for timing, lubed, and test fired. He said the gun was/is in excellent shape. So I can let go any thoughts of light D/A strikes.
I will have to chalk up this incident to careless reloading on my part. I cannot think of any other cause.
Maybe in the warmer seasons, this would not have happened. I'm glad it did occur. It caused me to tighten up my procedures. My shooting will benefit, I'm sure.
Can't wait to get my gun back from the shop!
.
I will have to chalk up this incident to careless reloading on my part. I cannot think of any other cause.
Maybe in the warmer seasons, this would not have happened. I'm glad it did occur. It caused me to tighten up my procedures. My shooting will benefit, I'm sure.
Can't wait to get my gun back from the shop!
.
BluesBear
member
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The Bushmaster
Member
Aah Bluesbear...Did you have something to say or are you just trying to keep this string going?
Thirties
Member
Well folks, I got my gun back this afternoon via UPS. It looks real nice. They checked the timing which was right on, the double action hammer fall which was just right, and they lubed inside as it was a bit dry. Stuck bullet removed also. They told me my gun was in very good mechanical order. Thank you to the guys at Pittsburgh Handgun Headquarters.
I'm going to shoot some loads tomorrow; and this time of year I'll be able to pull out the chronograph as well.
I have been rolling over all the possibilities. My conclusion is that I had one bad round. This could have been a badly seated bullet, a lightly crimped round, a very cold round of ammunition. Maybe all three in one. In any case, I've been unable to repeat this event in my other Colt DS.
So I will declare this thread over, or nearly over, unless some of you want to kick any more ideas around.
Thanks. I appreciate your help.
.
I'm going to shoot some loads tomorrow; and this time of year I'll be able to pull out the chronograph as well.
I have been rolling over all the possibilities. My conclusion is that I had one bad round. This could have been a badly seated bullet, a lightly crimped round, a very cold round of ammunition. Maybe all three in one. In any case, I've been unable to repeat this event in my other Colt DS.
So I will declare this thread over, or nearly over, unless some of you want to kick any more ideas around.
Thanks. I appreciate your help.
.
The Bushmaster
Member
Congratulations Thirties...Now. Back to shootin'...
Thirties
Member
It's been a few months, but I wanted to post the info I received over the phone from Berry's Bullets.
They told me to NOT use lead bullet data when loading their copper plated bullets. They suggest using the mid-range of powder listed for jacketed bullet loads of the weight/shape bullet. It has to do with the copp plated surface giving more friction than lead.
I underloaded; and that was the most likely reason the bullet stuck.
Thanks all for your interest in my problem . . .
.
They told me to NOT use lead bullet data when loading their copper plated bullets. They suggest using the mid-range of powder listed for jacketed bullet loads of the weight/shape bullet. It has to do with the copp plated surface giving more friction than lead.
I underloaded; and that was the most likely reason the bullet stuck.
Thanks all for your interest in my problem . . .
.
BluesBear
member
Duh!
Ya think?
I guess you could consider a round with only a partial powder charge as "underloaded".
Ya think?
I guess you could consider a round with only a partial powder charge as "underloaded".
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