Studied a few street fights

[KriegHund]

In Wing Chun, punches are delivered with a vertical hand and you strike with the bottom 3 knuckles. This isn't as powerful but your hand is better supported and less likely to be injured.

looking at the desighn of the hand, i cannot see how it is less likely to be uninjured.

The front two knuckes deliver force directly back onto the armn. the 2 outside of the side 3 knuckles sheer force off, making them less supported, and more likely to break.

Perhaps i did not read your post correctly?

My brother has broken his hand 3 times using the outside two knuckles.

 

[cracked butt]

A good solid punch to the chin or jaw may render your opponent unconscious. They don't call it the knockout button for no reason. Yes, the risk for hurt hands is there, but thats why you practice punching and toughen your fists...there's that training thing again.

Once in a while maybe depending on an individual's physiology. I've had two fights ended in the past immediately when someone punched me in the chin- both times the aggressor saw that it had no effect on me and immediately they went to plan B which was run away. I never even needed to fight back. Most people buy into the hollywood cliche 1-punch knockout and when they take their best shot, they expect the other guy to fold up like a shot duck. When the guy taking the punch just looks more pissed off than he did a second ago, the agressor tends to lose their nerve.

These observations make me think that a closed fist is not an optimum striking tool from an engineering design standpoint. Maybe those of you with more training can explain how you address this problem. Obviously it remains a problem even for people who do train judging from the design of mitts and gloves

I had a Shotokan Sensei who taught us not to use a closed fist on the head unless it was a hit in the soft fleshy area under the chin or nose. He said if you want to know what its like to hit a head with a closed fist, take a bowling ball, put a towel over it then hit it as hard as you can with your closed fist.

 

[pauli]

wing chun punches are usually intended to be extremely short range, rather than fully extended. for fully extended punches, you most definately want to use the two big knuckles - otherwise you end up with a boxer's fracture in those little fingers.

 

[Lucky]

Yea I don't know about that 3-knuckle stuff either, all I can say is that if you punch me in the head you are going to break your hand. 26 bones, 26 chances to get hurt (or is that the foot, and 27 in the hand?). You'll punch, I'll try to duck but not quite make it, and you'll break your hand on my forehead or the top of my head (if I just tuck my chin in instead).

Aiui boxers don't wear gloves to take it easy on the other guy, it's to protect their hands.

If a person was really smart they'd do some math and work out a way to stiffen your neck up so that the brain doesn't get bounced when you get hit, and the punch transfers energy to the whole body, so your whole body moves a little instead of your head moving a lot. And the other guy would break his hand, too, like usual.

 

[KriegHund]

wing chun punches are usually intended to be extremely short range, rather than fully extended. for fully extended punches, you most definately want to use the two big knuckles - otherwise you end up with a boxer's fracture in those little fingers.

Ah, that makes more sense. I can see how it could be used more effectivly in situations like that.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

He said if you want to know what its like to hit a head with a closed fist, take a bowling ball, put a towel over it then hit it as hard as you can with your closed fist.

I'd say that this description pretty accurately mirrors my experiences if you just added some dull serrated teeth to the bowling ball as well.

 

[Soap]

wing chun punches are usually intended to be extremely short range, rather than fully extended. for fully extended punches, you most definately want to use the two big knuckles - otherwise you end up with a boxer's fracture in those little fingers.

I would say that theory is erroneous. Bare knuckle boxers used the same fist as Wing Chun. Jack Dempsey was quoted as giving instructions to punch through the ring finger, which of course would lead to using the bottom three knuckles. The reason for this is because a boxer's fracture generally happens to the two outside knuckles when someone tries to use the two big knuckles and contacts full force with the smallest two. Using the bareknuckle/WC punch, your wrist is lined up for three knuckles and if you do make contact with an unaligned one (the index knuckle), that part of the hand is far stronger so you are much less likely to suffer a fracture.

I've punched both ways in my lifetime and now that I work out with a canvas wall bag filled with uncooked rice, I can tell you that I have utmost confidence in the punch Dempsey, Yip Man, etc. recommends.

Regardless, I'd rather throw a palm or edge of hand if I'm attacking the neck-up area.

 

[Soap]

In Wing Chun, punches are delivered with a vertical hand and you strike with the bottom 3 knuckles. This isn't as powerful but your hand is better supported and less likely to be injured.

I agree with the less likely to be injured part but disagree about the power part. The fact that Wing Chun punches are commonly known to have less power is because WC doesn't twist the body or hips on every punch. Western boxing only has one punch that doesn't use too much weight shifting, the jab. A WC principle is to not commit to any attack so that you can adapt quickly and score hit after hit. The lack of "power" in these attacks has nothing to do with hand position, but rather what the rest of the body does.

 

[Heywood Case]

I have been fortunate enough to avoid any fighting as an adult, but trained pretty hard for about 5 yrs. It seemed to me that the eye gouges had great potential but would be too easy to miss. I have read that attempts at gouging or clawing the face can work but can also cause an extreme rage reaction.

My preferred strategies would be avoidance, flight, pepper spray.

If fighting is necessary, the only things that matter are your training and your will to survive. Once it starts you will not exactly be thinking rationally.

I always thought that it was best to train with maximum effort because a fight will require everything you have. Unfortunately in my case that meant wrecking a critical joint in the foot. Now I try to practice the same way at the range.

John

 

[hwp]

I have been in about 8 all out fights (no weapons other than a beer mug one time) as an adult. I was also a police officer for 5 yrs. and was exposed to many fights in that profession but mostly after the fact.

Of my 8 real fights I won 2, lost 2, and the other 4 were most likely a draw with no victory for either fighter.

I don't think anyone here has brought it up but in my experience the stronger/heavier man has a GREAT advantage in any street fight I have ever been around. Every single fight I have ever been in has ended up on the ground and martial arts training is worthless when you are giving up 50lbs on the ground.

Martial arts.....hummmmm........I have seen several black belt this and 3rd degree that get stomped over the years by 6' 220 lb. guys with no training. 99% of black belts in any discipline would get absolutely spanked by a amateur boxer of the same size or bigger. Every "martial arts" trained person that I have seen get into a street fight got whipped. This is when I start hearing how (insert persons chosen martial art here) is different but I have never seen it produce in the real world. I know somewhere someone with a black belt really can fight but I bet he could fight if he never had training at all.

These are the facts I have gleaned from my experience:
Size is a great advantage-this is why heavyweights don't fight flyweights-it just isn't a fair challenge

Martial arts is most likely useless in a street fight if your opponent has any street fighting experience or ability

The stronger/larger man with adequate endurance wins most of the time

 

[Soap]

Martial arts is most likely useless in a street fight if your opponent has any street fighting experience or ability

The stronger/larger man with adequate endurance wins most of the time

So if I had say Randy Couture, a martial artist, fight some 6'2" 250lb bar fatty the fatty would win?

 

[000Buck]

So if I had say Randy Couture, a martial artist, fight some 6'2" 250lb bar fatty the fatty would win?

An even more extreme example would be Royce Gracie....but what he is saying is true kind of. I dont think he talking MMA fighters(emphasis on MIXED), he is talking someone who only trains TKD or something and isnt a good grappler.

 

[gripper]

I'm 41,and barring a few odd moments in recent years,the majority of my fights were between 11 and 17(I behaved myself more in the Army),with others scattered though my 20's and 30's. Some were work related,others were a case of me not being able to get distance between myself and trouble makers. I gotta concur with the training(GET SOME!)advice.And ,thet there is no "single best " fightiong system.People differ in many ways,and(hopefully) will find th einstructor/system that bring sout their best(fighting ability AND escape & evasion). I love the original posters use of the library;I was known to use St.Patrick's in Cambridge Ma,onone or two occasions(and no ,I was NOT amn altar boy ).The most impoirtant thing here besides DON"T GET IN FIGHTS! is keeping your head in BOTH senses of the expression.Panic(losing it one way) will often cost it in another way.
And yes,of the many fights I was in ,YES I did get busted up badly at least once.
I use to train(boxing,Korean&Japanse forms,with some Muay Thai),but not in recent years. I still work my endurance and strength/flexibility.Besides skill maintenance and growth,you do (or should) train/exercise as able. Even roadwork/running can be a period where you can "multi-task",slip in some footwork and shift drills,pull a few shots on the run.If nothing else,it keeps the bearings lubed.

 

[Soap]

An even more extreme example would be Royce Gracie....but what he is saying is true kind of. I dont think he talking MMA fighters(emphasis on MIXED), he is talking someone who only trains TKD or something and isnt a good grappler.

That's because TKD is like cardio kickboxing. My point is that there are probably millions of practicing martial artists out there. That would encompass some far out "Tai Chi" guru who thinks he has mastered telekinesis to people like Randy Couture. A blanket statement, such as "martial artists can't fight" is completely absurd for this very reason.

 

[JMusic]

Fighting is generally a battle of endurance. Grapplin, choke holds, are all good but it takes skill to render. Kicks to the legs, stomps to the shin and foot are techniques many don't forsee. To knock a man out you either have to be able to hit VERY hard or you have to utilize good technique. Many people knocked out are hit to the jaw when they have their jaw open. A proper punch to the jaw hits and drives the jaw down and to one side. This works the nerves in the TMJ area and violently whips the head to one side causing the brain to impact with the skull. I've knocked more people down hitting them in the chest than to the face. I look at a fight as just as deadly as using guns. You should be in fear of your life and avoid fighting until it is a last resort. If it turns out to be, strike first and strike low and hard. Continue until the threat is neutralized.
Jim

 

[hwp]

I knew my comments would draw some thing goofy and off the wall like the Randy Couture comment.

That response is just plain silly.

Randy Couture and other MMA CHAMPIONS would most likely be in the 1% I excluded from my comments, wouldn't ya think?

Do remember that Couture got knocked out by Chuck Liddel who is the superior boxer.

UFC fighters aside (for those that can't understand my earlier post) most martial artist can't win a street fight with a sober brawler.

You mentioned a 6'2" 250 lb bar fatty....that guy would most likely kick the crap out of most martial artist from what I have seen if he has any experience at all. World class fighters like Randy Couture aside

 

[AnthonyRSS]

TKD is great if you train to fight and not to win the olympics. I have trained in TKD, Muay Thai, and BJJ.

A fight is only in a ring/cage under regulation. Any other way and it is a self-defense situation.

If you HAVE to defend yourself using hands-

1. Hit FIRST.

2. Hit HARD.

3. Hit A LOT.

 

[Ivy Mike]

hwp,

This is the reason I've decided to avoid most martial arts and focus on cross training in the few that are actually effective.

A good striking art such as Muay Thai trains you to use a strong, yet simple attack to great advantage. It isn't flashy, but it works. Landing a straight punch with a proper fist is not going to put you at serious risk unless you have zero training behind you. You can't just hop off your couch and decide to run a marathon. You can't just start punching people and hope not to hurt yourself. You need to condition your body to take the impacts. You wouldn't carry a gun without training with it first, would you?


A good grappling art such as Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. Don't forget that the Gracies practiced this both against much larger fighters, fighters of other disciplines and random aggressors on the streets of Rio De Janiero. The techniques work.

I guess the Wing Chun guys believe that their striking is the best, but from what I've seen, the guy who hits first and hits hardest, tends to win.
I've been in a couple actual fights and this appears to hold true in most cases.

I just hope that if you don't do any training to teach yourself to fight, at least train yourself to run...it will be the most effective means of self-preservation.

 

[pete f]

regarding fights. Most here seem to have had less than ten. I bounced for seven years and doing that had one or two a night. Getting inside the other guys swings will usually work, I have never seen a TKD, KF, xyz martial arts guy win a fight inside a bar, I have seen a few win outside against drunks but for the most part anytime they won it was much more a case of them being less drunk, and in better shape than the victim. I have seen several guys how look like nothing absolutely kick the rubbish out of some large sized beings, the winning factor seems to be once the fight starts, it is all out, fast as you can get in side and use solid objects to hurt the guy. banging head against bar, chair, parked car, pavement. Getting the other guy to lunge at you when you have a chance to use his force to hurt him. We used to laugh at the guys who did the karate pose and the ahhhheayh scream. This was always followed by a really short exchange followed by them yelling "dude sorry hey man i an sooo sorry..." The guys who were the best bouncers were usually O line men or wrestlers, because they were used to keeping people from getting a hold on themand how to get loose when they needed to.

The 6' 2'' bar fatty might in fact be a plaster or a concrete finisher and you do not want to fight those guys, They have hands like rocks and forearms and the grip to get ahold of you and tear your body apart. you may spend five hours a week at the gym but he spend forty hours a week doing his job.

Never get in a fight within a half hour of a military base. Especially if the guy just seems too willing.

Never get in a fight with a partly drunk indian woman, they will hurt you.
They always seem to have a sharp thing hidden on them. Worst two fights have been with lesbians, (this judged by them being a bar with a woman, holding hands etc, or a crew cut with a b**ch braid) one had been a SP in the navy and she liked that crap. the other was a half drunk indian we had a lot of trouble with, she like to use a BBQ fork as her primary weapon.

Realize that just one hit can kill someone, we have had that twice in the twin cities this summer. Getting in a fight may result in you getting arrested for manslaughter, and you broke for life from a civil suit.

IF you are getting into fights on regular basis, understand that this is not normal behavior for citizens, and maybe you need to rethink your life choses. I quit bouncing after I got married, and I hit a guy hard enough that it took the paramedics 30 minutes to get him started again. That was with a sap, and i realized that it was only good luck that I had not turned the lights out permnantly on some drunk.

 

[Siggunner]

I'm going to have to go back to the first page of posts...

By MrTuffpaws:
I think once you learn to fight, you learn to avoid them.

Most of these "martial artists" do not truly know how to fight. If they did, they would know a bit about how to avoid them. I understand that you cannot always avoid a fight, and sometimes the trouble just seems to find you, but this is the exact reason I avoid bars. Egos+booze=fighting. I live in a college town with lots of testosterone-filled men that feel as though they have something to prove. Throw alcohol into that mix and it is quite volatile. If I want to hang out a drink a beer with some buddies of mine, we go to someone's house. I have taken martial arts since I was a child, and so have many of my friends, and from what I've found over the years (because I was like this at one point too), the less someone really knows about fighting, the more they tend to brag about it and like to correct others on what is right and wrong. You see the same thing in the world of guns. The guy who has seen it all and is all too ready to correct anyone on anything, just to show they know more. It's all ego, and when you learn to move past that you would be surprised at how many "somethings" are really nothing. Just my humble two cents...

 

[Deathrider1579]

In my albeit limited experience, the more serous martial artists were also the most humble and forgiving people I have met. I also know of people who are in it for the "Hollywood effect" spinning kicks, flips etc...

As for the punching thing, I have had 3 martial arts instructors over the years, 1 in Karate, one in Judo, and one in Krav Maga. They have all said the same thing about punching with the fist, I you can don't but if you must, hit first with the two knuckles of your hand. But preferably hit them with your elbow or kick them where you can.

-DR

 

[Soap]

I knew my comments would draw some thing goofy and off the wall like the Randy Couture comment.

That response is just plain silly.

Randy Couture and other MMA CHAMPIONS would most likely be in the 1% I excluded from my comments, wouldn't ya think?

Do remember that Couture got knocked out by Chuck Liddel who is the superior boxer.

UFC fighters aside (for those that can't understand my earlier post) most martial artist can't win a street fight with a sober brawler.

You mentioned a 6'2" 250 lb bar fatty....that guy would most likely kick the crap out of most martial artist from what I have seen if he has any experience at all. World class fighters like Randy Couture aside

All you're saying is:

aggression + real fight experience > martial arts

^Which I agree with.

All I'm saying is that

aggression + real fight experience < aggression + real fight experience + physical conditioning + good martial arts

Make sense?

 

[Soap]

hwp,

This is the reason I've decided to avoid most martial arts and focus on cross training in the few that are actually effective.

A good striking art such as Muay Thai trains you to use a strong, yet simple attack to great advantage. It isn't flashy, but it works. Landing a straight punch with a proper fist is not going to put you at serious risk unless you have zero training behind you. You can't just hop off your couch and decide to run a marathon. You can't just start punching people and hope not to hurt yourself. You need to condition your body to take the impacts. You wouldn't carry a gun without training with it first, would you?


A good grappling art such as Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. Don't forget that the Gracies practiced this both against much larger fighters, fighters of other disciplines and random aggressors on the streets of Rio De Janiero. The techniques work.

I guess the Wing Chun guys believe that their striking is the best, but from what I've seen, the guy who hits first and hits hardest, tends to win.
I've been in a couple actual fights and this appears to hold true in most cases.

I just hope that if you don't do any training to teach yourself to fight, at least train yourself to run...it will be the most effective means of self-preservation.

I'd say your thought process is sound. I would just add that no person in my WC club is a "true believer". That is to say, we don't think that WC ownz all in every kind of situation. But it has been proven (through bare knuckle boxing), that the vertical fist/smallest three knucks is the best way to punch if you absolutely have to.

 

[KriegHund]

Seems like alot of people think because they took a martial arts class for a year (or 3, if you want to point the laser at me) they are invincable.

pete f has pointed out pretty eloquently that this is not so.

I think the key should be-

Take good martial arts classes. Never underestim,ate your enemy.

 

[dmallind]

Like Pete f I'm an old bouncer (and also a Twin Cities resident - where did you work pete?). There really are no techniques or styles that will always win or even always help in my experience. It's too unpredictable. There's ALWAYS somebody better than you out there. Job #1, I've learned from bitter experience, is to avoid it. If you can't avoid it, don't go looking for style or cool moves. Hit anything you can see with anything you can use. Knees, elbows, whatever. I've done some fair amounts of shotokan and shorin-ryu but heck even in vigorous sparring the stylistic elegance drops off rapidly. Try real blood and guts and that multiplies immensely. Fights are messy and crude and not at all like practice or training. Doesn't mean they are useless of course - learning how to strike and a few blocks and grappling moves may help out from time to time, but relying on them too much is likely a painful experiment.

One thing that seems different from the UK where I grew up and did my bouncing is nobody here seems to realize what an incredible weapon the head is up close. Typically someone is going to grab you by the shirt and yank you face to face. There is little more devastating than a forehead delivered with extreme rapidity to the bridge of the nose. It's a fast strike with little warning when delivered properly, and the only possible defense is to duck and make them slam their nose into you instead - very tricky to time right. There the head is probably weapon of choice up close for the street monsters.

Only other things not mentioned already are don't be afraid when grappling to go after fingers. Nobody - not a 300lb slab of Oline muscle - is so strong that you can't break any of their fingers with your whole hand. Too many times I saw people trying to pry a bouncer's arm (mine included) away from their throat when we grabbed them from behind - while giving up leverage AND ususally a lot of weight and strength - guaranteed failure. Only once did somebody go for my fingers and I let go pretty darn quick. Hit him pretty hard when he turned around mind you but hey he got out of the chokehold.

Oh and I will now pass on my most painful and hard-won fighting lesson free of charge - and may this save you the teeth and stitches it cost me.

NEVER - not even ONCE - NEVER, no matter how much of a pain he is or how much he's annoying other customers, try to forcibly eject from the bar a man with "légion étrangère" tattooed on his shoulder. Trust me on this....