Study Martial Arts.

[Crunker1337]

There are many times when, for whatever reason, you are caught "with your trousers down" - unarmed.

As such, it's always a good idea to educate yourself in manners of defense not requiring a weapon beyond those that we receive at birth.

I'm a student of Kenpo and in my free time seek instruction in other forms of martial arts.

I'm sure there are plenty of other students of various martial arts on THR, but at the same time I realize that there's a rather dangerous attitude among some pro-gunners that vastly underestimates the value of martial arts ("I don't need any kung-fu crap when I have a gun!").

While a firearm is an excellent weapon at ranges over 15 feet or so, in extremely close quarters there's always the possibility that an aggressor can reach you before you draw your weapon.

Additionally, a well-timed wristlock is a far better (less legally and morally troublesome) counter to say a pickpocket than a drawn pistol.

I advise those of you who limit your knowledge of self-defense to when you're armed to learn a martial art if only to fight your way to a weapon.

 

[rich0372]

I'm with you on this

I've studied mutiple MA for 6 years mosty in Hapkido and Judo with a litttle BJJ and Thai Boxing mixed in. I feel that it would help greatly in close combat situation but, anything over a coulple feet and they have a gun you screwed.

 

[Devonai]

You're preaching to the choir, my friend.

 

[ratseal]

Choir, meet Crunker. Crunker, choir.

 

[Geno]

Being a dedicated martial artist also leads to extreme confidence, which criminals fear, and many here call chest thumping...so beit...they don't have X degree of Black belt rank, and instructor certification, and so are incapable of understanding. It also leads to one having the inner stregth to walk away from insult rather than feeling that if they walk away they are "chicken" or less of a man. In most cases, it takes a "bigger man" to walk. Any d@mned fool can pick a fight. A firearm should be last resort. Being a dedicated martial artist makes possible for one to quickly assess a situation and determine accurately, either I am over my physical head or I am not. If I am, now is the time to draw because I am not allowed to walk, and the odds are against me: 1 to 1 with a gun already pulled. Just the humble opinion of TKD instructor with 24ish years experience. Thank-you choir.

 

[Timthinker]

Crunker1337, thanks for starting this thread. I have always believed effective unarmed fighting skills constitute another layer of self-defense, and for the reason you stated. To me, anyone who is truly serious about self-defense should learn about firearms, edged weapons, impact weapons and unarmed fighting skills. Trouble very rarely makes an appointment to see someone, so people should have a variety of options at their disposal.Thanks again for this thread.


Timthinker

 

[357wheelgunner]

I practiced TKD and Hapkido for 7 years when I was younger, I learned a lot of good moves but none of it prepared me for the fights that I was constantly getting into (self defense, I was attacked after trying to back out of each fight). I learned a lot more street fighting than I did in the MA classes. Mostly things about being agressive and not holding back. I'll never forget how it felt the first time I got hit for real, or the first time I dislocated an opponents' joint, or the first time I knew I was in over my head. All things that were surprises because my sub-par instructors didn't even take the time to mention them.

Most MA classes are glorified exercise programs with pajamas, very few have much practical value.

 

[Byron Quick]

I've studied and practiced several martial arts since 1972. I've been in a good many fights too as bad debt collection and repossessions leads to confrontations often. Changed careers the end of 1990. Haven't been in a fight since.

Over the course of a lifetime, I'd advocate the study of strategy rather than any particular martial art. When you're old, weak, slow, and physically deficient-you'll be a much softer target. Still need to protect yourself.

Over the years, I noticed something about many of my fellow martial artists. They had never been in a serious fight outside of the dojo or the gym. Where there was no rules and no referee. Where the guy will stomp your head flat after knocking you down.

The specific danger is a lack of emotional preparedness to the reality of a street fight as opposed to a fight in the ring. (Or spiritual preparedness, psychic preparedness, call it what you will).

There is a vast psychological difference between getting your clock cleaned in the ring and getting it cleaned on the street where you don't know if the opponent will stop just because you're down and out. I've been there and done that in both scenarios.

Beyond cautioning people that the difference is there, I don't really know how to prepare for it if the real fight experience is lacking. I certainly do not advocate going to get the experience just to tune things up. But be aware that the difference is there and can greatly degrade a person's ability when the chips are down for the first few times.

 

[Geno]

Bryon is correct.

That is why people should study a full-contact style, with no pads...only a mouth guard and cup. Full-contact and minimal equipment teaches one to keep their guard up, and to follow through. The worst mistake you can make other than dropping the guard is to fail to follow through. Street defense, been there done that, is not sparring. It can quickly become life/death. Any street defense case should be over in seconds, not minutes.

Edit to add, the same as with a firearm, a martial artist is well-advsied to contact the LEOs ASAP, and to file a report. Of my self-defense cases, I have always received not only LEO support, but the prosecutor support as well. In each case, the perp(s) were legally placed on notice to stay very far away, and that if they violated the order, that I had every right to "...defend myself to any extent necessary."

Doc2005

 

[sacp81170a]

I'd advocate the study of strategy rather than any particular martial art.

Heiho-jitsu was held to be the highest martial art of all by the bujin of Japan. The Way of Strategy. I agree completely that one must have a range of tools available. The old tradition of Rough and Tumble on the American frontier is one that bears a review by anyone seriously into self defense. There were specialists in eye-gouging, stomping, biting, essentially every anatomical weapon that could do serious damage to one's opponent.

It doesn't take years of training in a dojo to become an effective fighter. Those years of training in the dojo, however, give you the foresight, judgement and ability to listen to your "gut" and avoid the fight in the first place.

When I say "fight", I mean a physical confrontation in which your opponent has some reasonable chance of success. I can't avoid physical confrontations, but I do avoid "fights" in that I try never to give someone an opening that can be used against me. If you have to apply a wristlock to a pickpocket, your awareness is such that you allowed him to get too close, especially if you're carrying a gun. Such a lapse in awareness is a serious flaw.

 

[Wire]

If you have to apply a wristlock to a pickpocket...there are places where personal space is measured in millimeters. Someone can brush past without criminal intent.

 

[falnovice]

My only issue with martial arts is that I have found many of them to not be reality-based. I appears to me that many schools train students for a duel, one on one, mano y mano. Some are overly concerned with winning tournies and often train to defeat someone with a similar skill set for points.
I have the same issues with some knife and stick fighting theories.
The real world is very different than being barefoot in a gi on the mat.

Still, plenty of good points to it as well. I have studied Karate, Boxing and a little JJ.

 

[sacp81170a]

there are places where personal space is measured in millimeters. Someone can brush past without criminal intent.

Agreed, you just need to be aware of what they're doing. If you're carrying, you need to plan for this and position yourself so you can protect your firearm from discovery and snatch attempts. That's CCW 101.

 

[jeff-10]

My only issue with martial arts is that I have found many of them to not be reality-based.

My problem is similar. You don't know which instructors and schools are legit and which are bogus. Anyone can open a dojo and call themselves a sifu, sensei, master or whatever. It makes picking one difficult, especially if you haven't done any in years and you don't know anyone else who trains.

 

[inherentical]

Martial arts classes are great for keeping in shape. The reality is that if you want to win a fist fight, be bigger than the guy you're fighting. I've seen plenty of skilled "martial artists" smacked around by a guy whose only skill was being a big, dumb, corn-fed midwesterner with quick hands the size of hams. I suppose if they teach you some sort of knife handling it'd be a plus, since a pudgy, middle aged man who knows how to use a knife would be something that I'd fear far more than most unarmed martial artists.

Firearms are, of course, the great equalizer. They help make a 4'9" 90 lb woman the equal of a 6'3" 280lb man in combat, with a minimal investment of time in the form of training.

 

[Nil]

I've been boxing for around 3 years now. This entails going to the gym at least 3 times a week for workouts and generally sparring once a week. While such a discipline doesn't prepare one for every facet of a physical altercation, it does teach one how to move, throw a punch and take a punch.

I want to take a more full contact martial art such as Krav Maga or something similar, but lack of time has always gotten in the way of pursuing it.

 

[kaizer]

Guys, the reality of this scenario is that most dojos are "sport" based. The average American has no interest in truly training to the degree that is necesarry to fully understand empty hand combat. To train to this degree is rough and leaves an individual constantly sore and bruised up.

I have participated in both types of schools, and being a sick minded individual I really took to the tougher and more traditional schools. It is often said that you have a plan until you are hit, which I firmly believe in and why I train hard. If more people in this country understood what a true fight for survival was like, I honestly believe that we would not have half of the problems that we currently have. But they don't understand what a true fight is like.

A sensei of mine from the past said that a good example was to contrast girl fights versus boy fights. A girl fight is much more viscous than a male fight and he said that was because the men expected that fight to be broken up, while the women where truly there to beat ass. I learned a lot from this man, he was/is by far the hardest individual I have ever met.

 

[Geno]

Well, I can't speak for other organizations, but when I tested for my 2nd degree Black Belt in Chang Hun TKD, I had to full-contact fight (not spar) with all techniques allowed:

I had 90 minutes of forms, one-steps, and questioning followed by:

3, 5-minute sessions against 1, 3rd degree Black belt national qualifier (1 on 1).

2, 5-minute sessions against 2, 3rd degree Black belt national qualifiers (2 on 1).

1, 5-minute sessions against 3, 3rd degree Black belt national qualifiers (3 on 1).

The testing ended with board-breaking: 4 stations, 6 boards (no spacers) in each station and 1 attempt allowed. The judge panel told me the sequence and the techniques: (left side-kick, right elbow-strike, right reverse, jump-spin-side-kick ending with a left lunging front-punch).

A total of nearly 2.5 hours later, I was officially a 2nd degree Black belt in that style. I am certified as an instructor in several martial arts, but this system and organization is the most demanding. Note, the judges stopped the test to admonish me for "excessive force" in the final (3 on 1) bout. We all walked off the floor, bloodied, battered and feeling well-exercised. What happened is that the one fighter contacted me a bit too hard and I conditioned responded and took all three out in-a-flash. And I mean out! I ended the fight! That fact alone is evidence that the fighting was "controlled" well, until it went out of control, which stopped the testing.

Even this extraordinary this test was totally unrealistic to street survival, and I should know...been there three times. The three times that I have been attacked on the streets, it took longer to try to talk the person out of a beating than to end the threat.

But, my point is this: Martial arts while they are martial, are moreover a "way of life". They are not about fighting, they are about how not to fight. They are about being the bigger man. And any martial artist worth their weight in salt will tell you that having to use their art in street defense is not a point of pride. It is a point of shame. It is for that reason that I seldom speak of my martial arts. I am not at all proud of using it. I should have walked away!!! While I tried, perhaps I should have tried harder. After all, when this happened, I was a professional martial artist. It is how I earned a living.

 

[Snapping Twig]

Awareness avoids fights. Knowing the end result of a fight allows you to walk away.

My school is a "black art" variety as opposed to a "sport".

I'm 9 years into my current training and will soon prepare for my Black Belt in Bok Fu which is a form of Kenpo with a heavy emphasis on Kung Fu.

We train with all weapons in addition to our bodies, we even have a .45scp class based on and condoned by Gunsite.


It's changed my life, I've gone from being intimidated to confident, and not falsely so.

I put my daughter through the system and now that she is 19, I am not as worried as I might have been. She took the pistol course when she was 16 and could clear a class 3 before she could drive. Good shot too.

The side effect is health. As I age I notice I am head and shoulders above the norm. Most of my friends are sporting the large mid sections and nagging health problems.

What I find amazing is when a punk gives you the hairy eyeball and you don't look away, in fact, you look them in the eye without any outward threat, but you transmit the sure and certain knowledge that you are without a doubt a much higher form of predator. They look away quickly and in many cases their body language shows a change of plans with evasion a priority.

I walked away from a biker guy at a party last Christmas. He insulted me after trying to get a rise out of me - unprovoked and shocking in nature. I asked him *** he said to me and he repeated it, so I walked away, but I kept him in my sights. I had 3 plans of attack based on his posture prior to his insult as his attitude was poor and he was a threat. All 3 of my plans involved therapy to ever use his limbs again should he survive. Knowing this, I walked away - he wasn't worth it, hadn't physically attacked me and words are survivable.

He later came to me to apologize and I shook his hand for it. I felt low to do so, but it was important to recognize what must surely have been a compromise for him and possibly he would learn a lesson and not repeat his boorish behavior - you never know who you're screwing with...

This would have ended much differently if I hadn't had my training.

 

[Geno]

I recall one funny event.

One evening, my instructor was on the floor (instructing). His wife was in the office. A young drunken gentleman ventured into the TDK school and asked, "Who's the instructor here?" By then, I could smell the alcohol. I smiled and said, "He's teaching, why?" The gentleman stated, "Because I want to see if I can kick his @$$ before I sign up. If I can kick his @$$, I'm not wasting my money!" I laughed and said, "Well, you might as well sign up, because you can't kick his butt." The gentleman looked at me and retorted, "Oh really, and how would you know?!" I looked at him and whisphered, "Because I can't take him, and there no way you could take me." The guy looked shocked, left and we all laughed about it. There is always someone wanting to push. Broom them out and move on.

Doc2005

 

[falnovice]

As a follow-up I would like to state I think most people sell boxing short. The average person can neither throw an effective punch or take one. Study boxing for a little while and you will be able to do both. Train a little more and you might be surprised by how hard and fast you can punch. Boxer wrap their hands and wear gloves to protect the hand, not the other person. Thats how hard they hit.
From my own experience, I have broke bones with a punch.......twice my own.

 

[sacp81170a]

From my own experience, I have broke bones with a punch.......twice my own.

That's the problem with balling your fist up and punching someone. I teach the officers at my department not to use fists, but other parts of their hands as impact weapons. You might win the fight with a punch, but it sucks to have to wait six weeks to go back on duty because you broke a bone in your gun hand. It's fairly easy to teach someone how to punch hard enough to hurt themselves. What's not so easy is the conditioning of bones and tendons needed to prevent injury to yourself. That's one of the problems with putting on pads and going at it in the dojo, you get away with moves that would injure you in a real fight.

In general, you use hard weapons against soft targets and soft weapons against hard targets. An open palm to the side of the head generates far more impact than you might guess. They even had to make rules to limit the use of that move in the NFL since so many offensive linemen were getting concussions from the "slap and roll" move used by defensive linemen. This was through their helmets, if that tells you how hard they were getting hit...

 

[Timthinker]

Falnovice, reading your last post reminded me of why I switched to palm heel strikes and elbow blows some time back. I can still use the mechanics of boxing with these two techniques, but I am making contact with less injury prone parts of my body. Injuring knuckles hurts like hell. Good luck with your training.


Timthinker

 

[strambo]

Martial Arts exist only to teach...martial arts. They may have varying levels of relevance to true violent conflict (or not) but, no matter, the only thing they will teach you for sure...is that martial art. The only goal they have is to teach that style. The best thing to study in order to survive a violent situation is how to injure other human beings in the most efficient manner. So...a knowledge of anatomy combined with a knowledge of how to generate as much force as possible with your body to apply to weak anatomical locations.

A rock repeatedly to the back of the skull trumps any MA "technique", requires no skill and has been working for tens of thousands of years.

Ever see a prison shanking? How much martial arts technique is in that? Brutally effective, no training required, just pump your arm until the other guy stops twitching. How to make it more effective? Study anatomy so it takes 2-3 stabs and 5 seconds instead of 64 stabs (only 2 of which were lethal) and 2 minutes. How much technique in a brutal street stomping...none. The fact is that the people in society who are best at using violence (criminal sociopaths) are not trained at all.

They just walk up and do it. They just focus 100% on injuring and dominating their victims. In order to be on the same level as them, you have to do the same. Focus 100% on injuring them. Don't focus on "defending yourself" or try to do some "technique". When you see a weak part of his anatomy exposed...wreck it (so that body part doesn't work anymore), and again and again until satisfied.

Now, I'm not saying not to train. Training gives you a huge advantage over those who don't (like criminals) as long as you are on the same page of reality as them. It's not a competition, your just trying to injure them to the point they are not a threat. Focus on the results you want (injury in the other guy) and work backwards. Most MA styles and sports focus on what you do and how you look doing it...hoping the not-clearly defined result will be there. It is better to focus on the only result you can count on in violence, debilitating injury in the other guys, and work backwards from there. Who cares how it looks or what it is called...DID IT CAUSE INJURY? If not...the criminal won't be impressed, he'll be too busy puming his arm with pointy thing attached into your torso.

When looking at any "technique" or method...ask yourself where the injury is in the other guy. What specific body part is damaged and how does that effect the other guys ability to function? Injury requires a target (like the throat, knee, ect.), a force (your body weight, or gravity) and a vector to and through that target with all that force.

 

[sacp81170a]

http://ejmas.com/jmanly/articles/2001/jmanlyart_gorn_0401.htm

Good article. This is how a lot of folks from "back home" fought...

"I would advise you when You do fight Not to act like Tygers and Bears as these Virginians do – Biting one anothers Lips and Noses off, and gowging one another – that is, thrusting out one anothers Eyes, and kicking one another on the Cods, to the Great damage of many a Poor Woman." Thus, Charles Woodmason, an itinerant Anglican minister born of English gentry stock, described the brutal form of combat he found in the Virginia backcountry shortly before the American Revolution. Although historians are more likely to study people thinking, governing, worshiping, or working, how men fight -- who participates, who observes, which rules are followed, what is at stake, what tactics are allowed – reveals much about past cultures and societies.