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Sturdy vs. AmSec - Finally Decided

Discussion in 'Shooting Gear and Storage' started by Triumph, Oct 25, 2010.

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  1. a1abdj

    a1abdj Member

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    It sounds like heavier steel and no fire insulation is important to you. If this is the case, why do you keep hovering around gun safes using gauge steel? Get yourself a nice new or used steel plate safe.
     
  2. heeler

    heeler Member

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    I know these gun safes threads of Amsec BF VS the Sturdy Minute Man has taken on a near triology of Ali VS Frazier(for the younger set,too bad you missed that!!)around here over the last few days or weeks.
    As far as a TL rated safe goes I certainly would be much happier with one than a UL rated RSC.
    But the problem with a TL rated safe the size of whats needed to store long guns among other things is their massive weight that they come in at and for most residential purposes is absolutely over kill unless you really have a lot of worth stored inside them.
    And if that's the case you probably have the money to have weak flooring shored or what ever is necessary to get it in place in your home.
    As I have stated before if you at least get one of the premium grades of gun safes and bolt it down in a strong point area and few people really know you even have it more times than not in a home break in your biggest threat is a pry attack and as I have stated before it is very unlikely they will bring with them what is really needed to breech your premium gun safe,what ever brand you choose.
    That's my opinion based my experience of three home break ins over the last thirty years.
    YMMV.

    Edit to add....Why would they offer 5 gauge when at that point your so close to 1/4 inch???
    That seems kind of weird.
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2010
  3. a1abdj

    a1abdj Member

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    That's a good question, and I have a theory. Before I say anything, I'm going to talk to one of my steel suppliers and see if they can verify what I'm thinking.
     
  4. Keizer

    Keizer Member

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    I think I know what you're thinking.
     
  5. BADUNAME17

    BADUNAME17 Member

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    Sensitive to what? Attacks or minor abuse? If you ask this question to any sheriffs departments and such, they will tell you they can't have a safe that cannot take minor abuse. We feel no one likes being told they need to baby a safe by not slamming the door, etc...

    I need to stop you now.
    Franky, we are too busy to respond to everything you ask on here, and we told these moderators, on this forum, we would stop “the beef“ with you, so we will respect that.
    No one here understands how a guy who likes to call himself a "safe expert" can't pick up a phone to call a safe mfg (Sturdy Safe) to see how their safes are made, or why it is they do what they do. One would think you would want to get the details and post it for yourself to really show people how much you know about all safes on the market, instead of asking us on these forums, or posting incorrect info about us on these forums. I feel you would be of better service to these forum people, to us, and yourself, by finding out the true information. If you post anything incorrect, you know I’ll be on here to correct you. ;). Our operators are standing by.


    To the people reading this forum, call us with any technical questions you have regarding our products.
     
  6. adirondack

    adirondack member

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    Alyssa,

    That fact that you have been a member here for over 3 years and only have 30 posts of which are nearly all related to having to correct a certain "safe expert" about spreading a miss-truth about your company speaks volumes.
     
  7. UncommonSense

    UncommonSense Member

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    I can see how it might sound like that, but I do see value in having some fire insulation. For the additional cost, the time to get some would be when I'm buying a safe. If I were to go with a Sturdy safe, I would very most likely be adding their fire insulation option. I'm also open to arguments dissuading me from doing that. I will say that it's nice with Sturdy that the fire insulation is optional. I'm more concerned with theft than I am with fire, but that doesn't mean I'm not concerned about fire too (or that once my mind is put more at ease about theft that I won't start thinking more about fire, kind of like Maslow's hierarchy of needs). I'm trying to think ahead, similar to buying more safe than I currently need.

    I'm not hovering around gauge steel safes so much as I'm trying to look at everything that appears to be avaialble to me, either surfing on the internet and talking to people on the phone who will ship, or walking into local safe shops. I'm limited by finances, and trying to balance the emotional reward of having something I "dig" (a beefy, genuine, safe that few others have) against more pragmatic and practical requirements. None of this is necessary. After all, I can avoid the loss of my firearms by not having any. Choosing both to have them and to protect them in some manner is a decision could be made in a number of different ways.

    All I can say is that having a "mainstream" sheet metal gun safe like you find in department stores and such isn't going to give me the peace of mind that I'm going after by getting a gun safe at all. I would feel "secure enough" with a 7 gauge Sturdy safe, or with what I thought was the construction of a BF before I realized they were thinner than 10 gauge on the outer wall metal. I understand it gives protection to a good majority of likely attacks, but for 80% of the cost of even beefier options, I'm inclined to pay the extra 20% to cover an even wider range or higher magnitude of attacks, even if they are quite a bit less likely.

    Putting it another way, understanding any safe can only slow a thief down, and can't necessarily stop them, I want a safe that will cause a thief to give up and leave, not because it is taking them too long and they are afraid to getting caught, but because they are physically too tired of pounding and hacking and prying on it that they give up because they are exhausted or because they hurt themselves and they just plain lose interest. While I'm at it (spending money on a safe), I want to add whatever reasonable fire protection is available for incrementally higher cost.

    I would be much happier with a TL rated safe as well. If I can find a used one for comparable cost I will do so. I have found a couple, but they aren't as cheap as the old, sold, expired, ads that I've seen, so I'm inclined to either keep looking for one or get an RSC rated gun safe. It's not worth the TL rating for me to overpay for a used safe, if that can be understood. I always like at good deal, which means different things for different items. I'll sacrifice the "new safe smell" or the automotive paint job, for higher security/dollar ratio, but I don't want to be some used safe seller's foolish buyer because let my emotions get the better of me. :uhoh:

    The used "TL rate-able" safe I found locally is the PERFECT SIZE for a gun safe, outside HxWxD = 68"x41"x29.5", inside HxWxD = 60"x34"x23". That's sweet, right? I mean damn near perfect. However, my hang up about that is that it's priced as a TL30 safe, but since it's a custom build the specific safe hasn't been tested so as I understand it it doesn't come with any certification. If it doesn't have the TL pedigree, then I would want to get a discount and the seller seems to be pretty firm on his $3300 price, to which I might have to add up to $400+ for delivery and install. Having never bought such a safe before, perhaps this is not unusual. After all the jeweler that originally contracted to produce the safe must have had an interest in meeting insurance requirements. If I'm overthinking this TL30 "style" safe and it's a great deal (since it costs nearly as much as an RSC gun safe) then let me know and I'll make it happen. I tend to let things that are "meant to happen" happen, and finding this local safe that is the form factor of the type of gun safe I'm in the market for makes me inclined to buy it and fill it up. Even without a TL30 U.L. certificate, I would feel very secure with my stuff in it, more so than in any gun safe that I would consider (aka "can afford").

    I don't have enough valuables to justify a TL rated safe according to most rules of thumb, but I would go so far as to say I have enough to justify (to myself anyway) a used TL rated safe that is only 15-22% more expensive than a new decent RSC rated gun safe of similar size. In my case, I have some interior floor that should support such a safe. In buying the safe I will have spent almost all the discretionary funds I have available at the moment. To me it's important to get a good safe now, as I can easily spend this money on yet more guns which would bring the issue even further to a head. :cool:

    Well, their website read, "while supplies last," so my take on it was that they just got a deal on some 5 gauge. If it were a ongoing thing, reflecting a decision on their part to offer an option based on a perceived market need, then being so close to 1/4" might not make as much sense (I guess that would put into another category of "plate safes," which would be good for marketing). My assumption of their 5 gauge version is that it is constructed the same way as their 7 gauge standard version, meaning the safe body is bent to form the three walls and door frame out of one piece.
     
  8. a1abdj

    a1abdj Member

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    Several local Sheriffs use me to handle their security needs, as well as assist them with the occasional opening as it relates to a variety of criminal activities. I'm only making an assumption here, but I'm guessing the reason they use me is because I know more about safes than they do.

    Just to be fair, and engage in full disclosure, I have never seen a Sturdy safe at any local Sheriff's department, police department, or any other government facility where I have worked. I have installed and serviced Liberty, Pro Steel (Browning), and an assortment of Chinese safes in these facilities. It is true that these guys are not the most gentle on their safes. With that said, none of these safes have ever failed to open due to abuse.

    I have no beef with you at all.

    It's not difficult, but if people don't understand, I will explain. Safe construction is not rocket science. The basic design of safes has been around for several hundred years. There have been improvements made over time, and those design features tend to find themselves used throughout the industry.

    There is nothing in the gun safe industry that has not been done a million times in the real safe industry. In fact, most gun safe manufacturers incorporate designs found on commercial units.

    All of that aside, the materials used on safes are identical across the board. A36 sheet is A36 sheet regardless of who welds it into a box.

    I have seen two of your safes. Although they are good gun safes, there's nothing magical about them. This certainly isn't an insult, it's just the way it is.

    But you don't have time to answer the other questions. I get it. I wouldn't want you to answer them either, because it may disappoint some of the guys hanging around here.

    You call it "correction", I call it "protecting your image". There is nothing I've ever said that is untrue.

    You're right adirondack. She certainly set me straight. I am obviously the most uniformed safe tech on the planet. Silly me.
     
  9. heeler

    heeler Member

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    Uncommonsense,I was checking around today and found at Westcoastsafes.com some pretty robust used older,thicker metal RSC's for a pretty decent price,considering they are for sale through a dealer rather than an individual.
    They are not TL rated but pretty stout as far as burglary protection within reason.
    There were a couple that I would have even grabbed the phone and called about if I was looking for another safe.
    Worth a long distance call at least.
     
  10. a1abdj

    a1abdj Member

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    There's really not much difference between the two. This is why the constant arguing about gauge is a bit silly. You're looking at a difference of about 1/20". You may not have known the difference, but 1/20" is certainly not the difference between comfortable and not comfortable.

    As far as the Jeweler's safe you've looked at goes, he can't claim it's a TL-30 if it doesn't have a UL tag. If it is built to the same specs, but not rated, it would be classified as an F rate.

    If it is a steel plate safe, it is worth more than a composite safe, even though a composite safe (concrete filled) would be lighter and stronger. It doesn't seem like a bad price, but perhaps you could negotiate since it doesn't have a UL tag (even though that really means nothing to you).

    I don't know where you're located, but if you want to PM me with your location, I may be able to refer you to some safe guys out your way. Not all of us can be found in the phone book or online.
     
  11. adirondack

    adirondack member

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    U.C.S. it's all I can do from keeping myself from getting one of those 5ga versions of a Sturdy Safe (I don't have a place for it yet). And if that isn't enough, you can put an extra plate of 7ga steel or 10ga stainless on the side/s. Bolt in down in a corner with fire lining and you have yourself one nice gun safe for the money.
     
  12. UncommonSense

    UncommonSense Member

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    Thank you for the reference. Actually I spoke to them earlier this week and they were they ones I mentioned earlier that had the used National Security Magnum that I had considered for about a day before thinking it was worth the extra $500 for the BF6636, for the warranty, drylight, and better interior. Their price was even $100 cheaper the another high volume, high profile retailer that does a lot of business online. Either of them were hundreds (nearly thousands) cheaper than the local storefronts.

    Well comfort is a subjective term, in the mind of the perceiver, so no one else can really define that for someone else. Granted, more comfort from a 7 gauge vs. a 10 gauge may come from ignorance as to how little difference it makes. This would be someone appreciating that fairy safe dust you mentioned earlier. I'm not saying it's right, I'm "just sayin'." My perspective about the two gauge choices is that if there is a thicker one available, it's more desirable to me if it's nearly the same price. (In this case, the 5 gauge is 16.7% thicker, and the safe price is 11.6% higher with my selected options, which somehow makes me feel like it's more okay to upgrade than if those numbers were reversed.) Maybe that means it will keep a 200lb thief out, but not a 210lb thief out (or conversely keep a 190lb thief from fitting his arm through the hole he can make and grabbing some booty but not keep out a 105lb tweaker from doing so).

    All else being the same, I'll take the thicker metal. I understand that all else is not the same, but Sturdy with their thicker gauge metal is also differentiated by their robust bolt mechanism and fire protection material, which to me are actually good things compared to typical lightweight linkages or drywall insulation. The BF series is another story, and if their exterior metal thickness were "the same" (in gauge, if not in practical strength as in your experienced view) then I'd probably lean that way. For me more metal has more "weight" in my decision than the cosmetics or some of the other considerations.

    The safe is a composite safe, the dimensions given in a earlier post of mine to give an idea of the wall thickness.

    I have to have further conversation with the guy. I only talked to him once and he was going to get a quote for me from the outfit he used to install the safe when he bought it. Maybe I'll take a look at the paperwork he has and get an eyeful of the safe in person this weekend. Actually, here are some pics of the safe.

    Yeah, when I saw that option I became pretty interested. My interest comes from having a spreadsheet that I have been using to keep track of all the various safes I've been looking at. Most of the guns safes I've come across in my price point are no thicker than 10 gauge for the exterior wall metal, with 7 gauge being the most for the Sturdy and 3 gauge for a Brown safe. I was like, "hey, that's new!"

    If I go with the Sturdy 3627 I would only upgrade to the 5 gauge, fire lining, and key dial. Beyond that, for me the other options like stainless inserts or additional layers starts getting too expensive to justify for no specific threat. One thought about the 5 gauge upgrade is that since shipping is included the upgrade price covers not only the material but part of it covers the potentially higher shipping cost since it should be slightly heavier.

    I guess for me most purchases are not unlike foreplay. I enjoy the analysis of the various options. Usually that causes me to get more for my money or in some cases to talk myself out of a purchase at all and save me all my money. Much like foreplay once the sale is consummated, the whole exercise is over and it's back to the mundane. The joy of the new safe will fade over time post-purchase, and the excitement of the shop will be history. Then it's only a matter of time before something else catches my interest and the routine happens all over again. The longer I can drag out a purchase decision, the more time I have for the paychecks to build up so when I splurge again it's all the more satisfying.
     

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    Last edited: Nov 4, 2010
  13. Cesiumsponge

    Cesiumsponge Member

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    Posted in the wrong thread, contents deleted. Oops!
     
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