Quantcast
  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Subcaliber inserts.

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by Matt G, Dec 15, 2008.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Matt G

    Matt G Moderator Emeritus

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2002
    Messages:
    3,547
    Location:
    N. TX
    I have a minor fascination with subcaliber inserts.

    I got some .22 LR ones in .45 Colt with the idea of shooting old guns cheaper. Problem: It shoot them far less accurately.

    I got one in .410 for 12 ga. with the idea of being able to dispatch small critters quietly.
    Problem: It does so much, much more expensively, and in slugs, less accurately and almost so ineffectively as to be inhumane.

    I got one in .357 for 12 ga, for the same purpose.
    That one works great, though it's quite inaccurate beyond 10 yards. In .38 wadcutter, it does the job nicely and quietly.

    I have seen many pistol-to-rifle converters. One reason I love my .35 Whelen is that I can handload .357 pistol bullets in it, for quieter, less zippy practice or plinking loads. But I got to thinking: what of caliber conversions for it? I don't suppose that a .38 Special revolver rim would fit in the base of a .35 Whelen (read: .30-'06) case. But I would think that one could be made up for .357 Sig, which is rimless.

    Anyone know of someone making such conversion sleeves in .357 Sig to .35 Whelen? Or even 9mm to .35 Whelen? .38 Super?
     
  2. NCsmitty

    NCsmitty Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2008
    Messages:
    5,325
    Location:
    North Carolina
    Anyone with a lathe and the knowledge to operate one, plus a reamer should be able to fabricate almost anything that makes sense.

    NCsmitty
     
  3. The Lone Haranguer

    The Lone Haranguer Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2006
    Messages:
    11,717
    Location:
    Johnson City, TN
    :confused: How would that work? You still have a .45-caliber bore.
     
  4. gvnwst

    gvnwst Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2008
    Messages:
    2,614
    Location:
    Somewhere.........
    A barrel insert? If somebody necked down the 45acp to .358, that would be easy to make a conversion for a 35w rifle...
     
  5. Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow

    Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow member

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2007
    Messages:
    13,146
    See my last post at the bottom of the page here:

    http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=392473&page=8

    The .22lr one in .45 colt *sorta* makes sense for a .22 shotshell, but not a bullet. Still the problem of the rifling spinning the shot, however.


    Some of the ones that make the most sense:
    .22lr in .22 magnum

    .22lr in .22 hornet (don't know how they do this one)
    .22lr in .223 rem (ditto)
    .22 mag in .22 hornet (ditto)
    .22 mag in .223 rem (ditto)
    (if those are offset to get the firing pin to strike the rim, then how is the bullet centered in the bore??)

    .22 hornet in .223 rem or .22-250 rem
    .223 rem in .22-250 rem

    .22 lr in .410 bore, 20 ga, or 12 ga (for .22lr shotshells)
    .22 mag in .410 bore, 20 ga, or 12 ga (for .22 mag shotshells)
    .45 colt in .410 bore, 20 ga, or 12 ga (for .45 colt shotshells)
    .45 acp in .410 bore, 20 ga, or 12 (for .45 acp shotshells)
    .38 special in .410 bore, 20 ga, or 12 ga (for .38/.357 shotshells)

    .410 bore in 20 ga or 12 ga
    20 ga in 12 ga


    7.62x39 in .308 or .30-06
    .32 acp in .308 or .30-06 or 8x57mm
    .30 carbine in .308 or .30-06

    (I don't think you could do .30-30 win in a .308 or .30-06 could you, due to the rim on the .30-30?)
     
  6. ilike223s

    ilike223s member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2008
    Messages:
    98
    how about shooting 221 fieball in a 223,I like to have one,,
     
  7. NCsmitty

    NCsmitty Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2008
    Messages:
    5,325
    Location:
    North Carolina
    PremiumSauces, these will work in a T.Contender as they have 2 firing pins and a rotating block in the hammer. You can select rimfire or centerfire.

    MCA made inserts and adapters that covered many on your list, but they no longer have a website.

    Just found these funky inserts.
    http://www.e-gunparts.com/DisplayAd.asp?chrProductSKU=765870&chrSuperSKU=&MC=

    And I found these.

    http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/cb.aspx?a=489745

    NCsmitty
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2008
  8. RyanM

    RyanM Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2005
    Messages:
    4,412
    Location:
    PA
    I think the rim diameters are still similar. Let's see. 0.422" rim dia for .40 S&W (nickel plated Speer), 0.435" for .357 mag (Winchester). Not that much difference. .30-06 is .470", so I think .38 SPL might work.

    Hm, MCA must have gone down recently. Their website was still there as of 2 weeks ago. I guess it may be a good thing I didn't place an order. :(

    Wish I could find someone to make my 3-shot .22 to 12 gauge adapter idea. Use rifled barrels and it could be relatively accurate.

    shell3.gif
     
  9. NCsmitty

    NCsmitty Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2008
    Messages:
    5,325
    Location:
    North Carolina
    Interesting concept RyanM, although I see no dimensions to verify. The method of securing the capping/firingpin part for easy access and alignment needs to be addressed.
    I would suggest a one piece cap with a single metal piece of round stock for a firing pin, large enough to fire all barrels at once. I'm just not sure if a shotgun would impart enough force to the large pin to fire the 22's. The one piece cap would use a simple O ring to secure in the body and would not need alignment.

    Simply using a section of 22 barrel liner would work for the barrels.

    At least it's fun to dream about such things.

    NCsmitty
     
  10. oldgold

    oldgold Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2004
    Messages:
    434
    Location:
    ohio
  11. NCsmitty

    NCsmitty Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2008
    Messages:
    5,325
    Location:
    North Carolina
  12. Vern Humphrey

    Vern Humphrey Member

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2002
    Messages:
    18,715
    Location:
    Deep in the Ozarks
    A Better Idea

    The Hammond Game Getter is the best for my money.

    http://www3.telus.net/gamegetter/

    The Game Getter is essentially a standard case with a steel head and an offset "primer pocket." The primer pocket is really a chamber for a .22 RF, positioned so the centerfire firing pin will hit the rim of the case.

    The Game Getter comes with a sizing die which you use to size buckshot to the appropriate caliber. In use, you insert a Ramset (tm) blank in the chamber, a sized shot in the mouth of the case, and fire away.

    I have one in .30-06, and the shot impacts at the thick top of the bottom crosshair at 25 yards, producing 1 inch groups. It's ideal for deer hunting, when the squirrels try to carry you off your stand.:p

    Hammond Game Getters are available in all standard cartridtges, and for wildcats, if you send Hammond a case he will make one up special.
     
  13. CYANIDEGENOCIDE

    CYANIDEGENOCIDE Member

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2008
    Messages:
    473
    The 3 shot .22 would fall under NFA regulations. There is a comapny that makes something similar for 37 or 40 mm launchers its called a beehive and fires either 10 or 18 .22 at once (i can't remember)

    I am waiting for someone to suggest using a 26mm flare to 12 gauge adapter then a 12 gauge to 9mm adapter so you can get a 9mm single shot without any paper work
     
  14. JImbothefiveth

    JImbothefiveth Member

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2008
    Messages:
    2,711
    Location:
    Oklahio
    I'm not a gunsmith, but wouldn't .35 whelen pressures in a 9mm destroy the gun, and possibly it's user?
     
  15. Matt G

    Matt G Moderator Emeritus

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2002
    Messages:
    3,547
    Location:
    N. TX
    JImbothefiveth:
    :) Funny guy. Everyone's a comedian. :) (I think I made clear that I was speaking of a sleeve to shoot 9mm in a .35 Whelen, rather than the other way around... :uhoh:)

    I can speak to the Dina Arms .357 adaptors for 12 ga.: They're well-made, and give okay accuracy, for what it is. I never shot anything but light .38 Special through it, though.

    The mcase.com URL is a dead link.

    The Hammond Game Getter is well-though of. It's not what I want, however.

    The .22 adaptor in .45 Colt works by having the .22 LR hole off-center, so that the centerfire .45 Colt firing pin strikes the rim of the cartridge for good ignition. There is about a half inch or so of rifling in it. Probably better accuracy that we got could be attained by carefully placing the same adaptors in the same positions in the same chambers every time. But we (my father and I) were disappointed.
     
  16. NCsmitty

    NCsmitty Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2008
    Messages:
    5,325
    Location:
    North Carolina
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2008
  17. Matt G

    Matt G Moderator Emeritus

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2002
    Messages:
    3,547
    Location:
    N. TX
    While I agree that the Dina is a good product for shotgun, I'm looking for .357 adaptors or inserts to use in a .35 Whelen rifle.
     
  18. Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow

    Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow member

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2007
    Messages:
    13,146
    oldgold, that link is no good...which one did you mean to post?
     
  19. highlander 5

    highlander 5 Member

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2006
    Messages:
    2,347
    Location:
    lynn,ma
    If you get Shotgun News there was a fellow from Alaska that made all kinds of sub caliber inserts just can't remember his name off hand.
     
  20. RyanM

    RyanM Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2005
    Messages:
    4,412
    Location:
    PA
    When was the last time you saw an M203 or M79 that was registered as a machine gun? The ATF's ruling is that a single cartridge can shoot as many projectiles as you want (i.e., buckshot, birdshot), so long as it's a single cartridge. A bunch of .22s loaded into a beehive round become a single cartridge, since the whole thing is set off by one primer. Same for my design.

    -------------

    It actually is dimensioned, 1 pixel = 0.005". I was just too lazy to put them on.

    Anyway, I really doubt that a shotgun firing pin would have enough power to fire 3 .22s at once, plus there's the legality thing mentioned above. It may be that it'd still be legal since they're all in a single cartridge, but we already know that primer-actuated designs are legal.

    Alignment would just be by 3 protrusions on the walls in the part of the adapter that holds the barrels, which line up with 3 slots on the firing pin whatsit (the red part).

    Actually, though, you may be onto something. I bet a primer would have enough punch that a simple one-piece firing pin could whack all three.
     
  21. CYANIDEGENOCIDE

    CYANIDEGENOCIDE Member

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2008
    Messages:
    473
    When was the last time you saw an M203 or M79 that was registered as a machine gun? The ATF's ruling is that a single cartridge can shoot as many projectiles as you want (i.e., buckshot, birdshot), so long as it's a single cartridge. A bunch of .22s loaded into a beehive round become a single cartridge, since the whole thing is set off by one primer. Same for my design.

    Well all 40mm grenade launchers are NFA, and 37mm flare launchers become NFA once you load with anything besides flare or smoke. Your device would become NFA because it fires 3 shots with a single trigger pull. I agree you can fire multiple projectiles from a single cartridge, not multiple cartridges. I am not sure why you think loading 3 cartridges into a single larger device qualifies the device as a single cartridge. They are still 3 separate cartridges. You would be firing 3 shots with a single trigger pull (a machine gun).
    Notice I used NFA to describe the device. NFA is not just machine guns, it could be DD, AOW, SBS, SBR, silencer. So 40mm and 37mm anti personnel are NFA because they are destructive devices.
     
  22. TEDDY

    TEDDY Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2007
    Messages:
    884
    Location:
    MANNING SC
    auxilary cartridges

    alex cart.in alaska.
    I have auxilary cart in 30/06-303-8 mm-30/40all take 32 acp
     
  23. SpamHandler

    SpamHandler Member

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2008
    Messages:
    122
  24. RyanM

    RyanM Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2005
    Messages:
    4,412
    Location:
    PA
    "NFA" is not a simple, black-and-white catch-all classification. You cannot register an AR-15 as a short-barreled rifle, then go ahead and install an auto-sear.

    Likewise, you cannot buy a destructive device and turn it into a machine gun, nor can you buy a machine gun and turn it into a destructive device.

    The ATF's ruling that a "beehive" round is a single cartridge may not make any sense, but how many of their rulings do?

    NFA classifications basically have several tiers. An NFA weapon may have features of lower tier classifications, but not equal or higher tier ones.

    In the top tier are machine guns and destructive devices (also silencers, I guess). There are also a few weapons which are both a machine gun and a destructive device, like full auto shotguns and grenade launchers, but those would actually be entered into the registry twice, under both classifications (though you only fill out the paperwork once).

    The second tier is short-barreled rifles and short-barreled shotguns.

    The third tier is AOWs.

    In other words, a machine gun may be made into an SBR if you want, because machine gun overrides short-barreled classifications. But you cannot rebarrel a machine gun into a caliber greater than .50, since then it would be a destructive device as well.

    You can take a registered destructive device and cut the barrel down so that it's an SBS or SBR. But you cannot put an auto-sear in and turn your destructive device into a machine gun. "NFA" does not mean "I can turn this thing into any kind of NFA weapon I want." If that was the case, everyone would be selling parts kits to build a machine gun on an M79 or M203 receiver.

    Also, mcace.com is back up, hooray. I guess they didn't go out of business after all.
     
  25. CYANIDEGENOCIDE

    CYANIDEGENOCIDE Member

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2008
    Messages:
    473
    I can see this has derailed like AMTRAK under ideal conditions, nevermind.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page