bassjam
Member
I've actually been on the lookout for a CS9. It doesn't meet OP's round count requirement, but I think it'd be a sweet little carry gun.
Subcompact DASA or DAO recommendations/warnings?
- Thread starter Mitlov
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I've actually been on the lookout for a CS9. It doesn't meet OP's round count requirement, but I think it'd be a sweet little carry gun.
Elkins45
Member
Don't buy a Glock unless you budget an extra $80 to install a Striker Control Device.
I share your desire to keep a thumb on the hammer while holstering. I also understand that in moments of stress a 5 lb trigger with no external safety can cause shots to be fired that weren't intended. I'm sure people will dog pile on about trigger discipline and "failure of training" but I'm not a cop and you aren't either. Ignore those people.
Have you considered the Walther P99c AS? It's a striker fired gun that has a slide mounted "decocker" that releases the tension on the striker. It gives you a full, long trigger stroke for the first shot. You might also consider an HK P2000SK with the LEM or DAO trigger.
My personal preference is for Kahr, but they don't make a double stack gun so that might not work for you. What it gives you is a really slim gun and a consistent great DA trigger for every shot. Plus, it feels great in my smallish hands.
It's a shame you aren't local because I bought a compact 3rd gen S&W DAO on a lowball Gunbroker bid several years ago and I never shoot it. It's a 40 though, so you might not be able to live with the ridicule
I hear what you're saying, but on the other hand, what about the idea of fighting how you train? The purpose of me attending the classes would not be competition prep or anything like that, but instead taking my practical skills beyond just solo range training. If my defensive gun isn't going to have room for a solid pinky grip, do I want to become accustomed to a solid pinky grip during my training? If my trigger on my defensive gun is going to have a nine pound pull, do I want my training trigger to have a five pound pull instead?
I understand the idea that we don't need to have a one-size-fits-all gun because we have the right to own several. Legally, you're totally right. In terms of family financial planning though, I personally don't go out and buy a specialized gun for everything I do (except for my Ruger MkIV). I shoot trap and skeet with a $500 pump, not a $3,000 specially-set-up over-under. Convincing my wife that we need one more gun is going to be challenge enough; convincing her that we really need two more guns is going to be a very hard sell when we've got kids, mortgage, car payment, home improvement projects, etc.
Zaydok Allen
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Look no further. It meats all your requirements. I recommend the LEM trigger, but based on your desire foor a heavier trigger, I do not recommend the light LEM.
JTQ
Member
If you have a lot of semi-auto pistol experience and are completely comfortable with how all the controls work and mag changes are second nature to you, and I have perhaps misread your posts over the years, then get the sub-compact semi-auto and blast away at the class.
On the other hand, if you are primarily a revolver guy (no crime in that at all), and spent just a short time with a semi-auto, and got rid of it because you couldn't operate the controls the way you thought they should be operated, not the way they should be operated, then getting the full size semi-auto, and learning to work the full size gun will be a whole lot easier than trying to learn on the little gun.
It still comes down to the question I posed earlier. Are you getting this gun to conceal carry or are you getting this gun to take the class?
JTQ
Member
I mean, you don't have to take the class, you don't have to take a class with a 10 round capacity minimum. You could take a different class with your SP101. However, if you're going to go to the expense of buying a new gun, you should be realistic about why you are buying it. Is it because you need it for concealed carry, or are you trying to learn semi-auto pistol operations and take this particular class.
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I'm definitely not an experienced pistol guy. I never shot at all until this past decade, and a lot of my shooting has been single trap. When it comes to handguns, most of my shooting has been with revolvers and a 22LR target pistol. I'm not an experienced shooter and didn't mean to suggest that I am.
My strong feelings about "you fight how you train" comes from martial arts and martial sports, where I've been training since the 90s. Not from shooting.
It's hard to give a simple answer about which is the purpose for this gun because I came into this thread envisioning that my next purchase could do both.
I don't carry everyday (employer rules, plus state law regarding guns in courthouses), but I do sometimes conceal carry when in the outdoors. Plus I kind of need a new home defense handgun because my wife had basically stolen the SP101 as hers. I came into this thread hoping for a gun that would be appropriate for these sorts of training classes but also supplement/supersede the SP101 for home defense and occasional carry.
If one can't do both, I'd have to do some thinking about which of the two uses is really the priority right now. I guess maybe the classes...but I'm not excited about getting a gun specifically for those classes and nothing else.
Or p2000sk which can be had cheaper.
JTQ
Member
I don't think I misread you then over the years of reading your posts. You don't have a glaring need for a concealed carry gun, but would like to learn your way around semi-auto pistols.
Other folks may disagree with my recommendation, and you may not take it, and that's OK with me, but I would buy a "duty size" 9mm semi-auto pistol and learn to shoot it. That size window runs from the G19/G17/G34 in the Glock family, HK USPc/P2000/P30/VP9, S&W M&P family, Beretta 92X/FS/M9/92c/APX/PX4/PX4 Compact, SIG P320/P229/P226, you get the idea.
I see no advantage for you to the sub-compact guns you're considering and would even stay in the larger portion of the duty-size guns I recommended above such as the G17/G34, 92X/92FS/PX4, SIG P226/P320, etc. Find the one that is comfortable in your hand.
I'm more comfortable with the HK LEM trigger versus a Glock style striker fire system.
I have both a H&K P30SK-LEM and a H&K P30SK-V3 (DA/SA). Depending on the use of the pistol, full carry or glove box carry, depends on which I choose.
I practice alot with the DA/SA pistol to stay current with the heavy DA pistol pull. I also practice alot with a DA only J-frame revolver.
I have both a H&K P30SK-LEM and a H&K P30SK-V3 (DA/SA). Depending on the use of the pistol, full carry or glove box carry, depends on which I choose.
I practice alot with the DA/SA pistol to stay current with the heavy DA pistol pull. I also practice alot with a DA only J-frame revolver.
Mitlov writes:
I mentioned above how much I like my Thunder. I forgot to mention that I'm also a southpaw.
Out of curiosity, how? Do you carry it safety on and deactivate with the support hand? Or carry with safety off, just using it as a decocker?
Tallball
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1) Buy a duty-sized LE turn-in (or milsurp) pistol for cheap to get comfortable with semi-autos and for a class.
2) Later get a used subcompact carry piece for cheap, once you are used to them.
If you get decent deals, the cost would be the same as one NiB pistol.
2) Later get a used subcompact carry piece for cheap, once you are used to them.
If you get decent deals, the cost would be the same as one NiB pistol.
Electricmo
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I would venture to say most folks carrying DA/SA pistols carry decocked safety off. So it’s basically like carrying a revolver.
Your small hands and 10 round capacity requirement make your choices limited. Finding a slim grip on a 10 round double stack 9mm pistol might be daunting. .380 pistols may be doable but being a southpaw limits you once again. I would try a beretta .380 cheetah and see if it fit your hand. They have ambidextrous safeties. I would go to a local range or gun shop and get to work handling a few guns ASAP.
Your small hands and 10 round capacity requirement make your choices limited. Finding a slim grip on a 10 round double stack 9mm pistol might be daunting. .380 pistols may be doable but being a southpaw limits you once again. I would try a beretta .380 cheetah and see if it fit your hand. They have ambidextrous safeties. I would go to a local range or gun shop and get to work handling a few guns ASAP.
Normally I would do just that. But my local range is closed due to the pandemic, the classes I'm interested in are on hold until after the pandemic, gun stores are very low on inventory, and it seems unfair to gun store staff to touch and handle everything they still have in stock if they're then going to have to sanitize it. My plan was to wait until panic-buyers start selling, and gun stores are overflowing with great deals on lightly used guns.
Ernie Bass
member
If this turns into any sort of apocalypse scenario, I'll just rely on the revolvers, 22s, and shotgun that I already have and am already comfortable with. I think this is going to be like the 1918 influenza, though, where it's going to be a rough year but then normalcy will return. Keyboard-based window-shopping does help the time pass though
Charlie98
Member
Say what? 'Defensive' pistol... as opposed to 'Offensive' pistol... is by definition typically a compact or sub-compact firearm. 10 round minimum completely eliminates revolvers and a very good many smaller (single-stack) autos. If it's for the purpose of the course, I guess so, but I'm a 'train with what you carry' kind of guy... but I guess you can do that on your own after the course.
If I was taking a course where I needed a 10+ semi-auto, I'd prefer a HiPower, but I understand SA autos are poo-poo'ed some these days.
I'm a small guy too and had problems many years ago finding what I was comfortable with. Since you're coming from revolvers, I'd suggest that you try to stick with the mode of operation as closely as possible. No switches or lever to flip or flick to make it go bang and a consistent trigger from the first shot to the last. What you'll be missing though is the hammer to ride.
I've carried double action only or safe action pistols for over 20 years and those that I really liked in terms of double action only are the Kahr, Glock, Smith and Wesson (I'm not talking about striker fired models), and the Smith and Wesson M&P line. Of those, the Kahrs were my favorite, until I got my Glock 48. The finally came out with one that fits my hand.
I've carried double action only or safe action pistols for over 20 years and those that I really liked in terms of double action only are the Kahr, Glock, Smith and Wesson (I'm not talking about striker fired models), and the Smith and Wesson M&P line. Of those, the Kahrs were my favorite, until I got my Glock 48. The finally came out with one that fits my hand.
Tallball
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One possibility is to buy one of the surplus Beretta 82's that are for sale on so many of the surplus websites right now. They are around $200 plus shipping and FFL charges. It is a 32acp pistol. IIRC, it holds 12 rounds. It would be very easy to use for a course, since it is an extremely well-made pistol with extremely low recoil.
If and when the OP felt comfortable with the Model 81, a Model 84 could be purchased. The Model 84 is not as inexpensive, but it is identical except that it is in 380acp caliber. I think mine cost somewhere in the mid $300's used, though it took some patient haunting of Gunbroker to find it for that price.
Also, the Models 81 and 84 feel and handle a lot like the Model 92, other than being smaller (maybe 2/3 or 3/4 sized). The OP could first become comfortable with the inexpensive Model 81. After that, if a Model 92 compact fit his hands well enough, it would be an extremely easy transition.
It's just a random thought I had. I have an 81, 82, 92, and 96. They are all very nice handguns.
I put aftermarket grips on my 81 and 84 to fit my XXL hands better. The 84 has a lot of finish wear. It was some kind of military surplus. The 81 is dirty in this picture, but it seemed to have barely been shot before I got it.
My Model 96 (40 caliber) was also military surplus. I got it for an outrageously low price due to it being a "Frankenstein gun" made of non-matching frame and slide. You can see the family resemblance to the two above.
View media item 1867
If and when the OP felt comfortable with the Model 81, a Model 84 could be purchased. The Model 84 is not as inexpensive, but it is identical except that it is in 380acp caliber. I think mine cost somewhere in the mid $300's used, though it took some patient haunting of Gunbroker to find it for that price.
Also, the Models 81 and 84 feel and handle a lot like the Model 92, other than being smaller (maybe 2/3 or 3/4 sized). The OP could first become comfortable with the inexpensive Model 81. After that, if a Model 92 compact fit his hands well enough, it would be an extremely easy transition.
It's just a random thought I had. I have an 81, 82, 92, and 96. They are all very nice handguns.
I put aftermarket grips on my 81 and 84 to fit my XXL hands better. The 84 has a lot of finish wear. It was some kind of military surplus. The 81 is dirty in this picture, but it seemed to have barely been shot before I got it.
My Model 96 (40 caliber) was also military surplus. I got it for an outrageously low price due to it being a "Frankenstein gun" made of non-matching frame and slide. You can see the family resemblance to the two above.
View media item 1867
MedWheeler
Member
Mitlov writes:
I do not use the safety on any handgun with a double-action (or similar) first-shot option. On the Thunder, I carry it with the hammer at rest on a loaded chamber, and the decocker/safety off.
I do not use the safety on any handgun with a double-action (or similar) first-shot option. On the Thunder, I carry it with the hammer at rest on a loaded chamber, and the decocker/safety off.
The only sub compact 9m.m. that I would recommend is the SPRINGFILED ARMORY SD9 Sub Compact. I have owned several and they are really great guns. They are just as reliable as my GLOCK pistols, but have the advantage of a grip safety, in addition to the GLOCK like trigger safety and internal safeties. It is larger than the GLOCK 26, but I find it more controllable due to the grip shape and like shooting the 13 round magazines with the PEARCE Grip Adapters.
The XD9 Sub Compact is also small enough to conceal and now comes in a low cost model called the Defender, which is an absolute bargain. As a house gun, you can switch over to the longer 16 round magazines or carry them for a reload.
I have shot the GLOCK 26 and it is as small as I am comfortable with.
The smaller, single stack 9m.m. pistols like the KAHR 9, GLOCK 43, S&W Shield and SPRINGFIELD ARMORY XDs models were just not comfortable enough to shoot for more than 50 rounds. I do not want a gun I cannot put at least a 100 round through it comfortably in one range session.
Off duty, I frequently carry a GLOCK 42 in .380ACP, as it is very concealable, shoots as well and accurately as a mid size 9m.m. and is GLOCK reliable.
The micro 9's are just too unpleasant to shoot, as far as I am concerned. I put 15 rounds through a RUGER LC9 and swore I would never shoot it again. On the other hand, the person who owned the RUGER, swears by it.
So my advice is to go to range that rents what you are interested in and try it before you buy.
I also shot the WALTHER P-99 AS Compact and found it to be too light for me to shoot accurately. I had a P-99 AS and thought it was an excellent pistol, but was not satisfied by the compact model.
Since everyone is different, take internet recommendations (including mine) with a grain of salt. I have also found that as I get older, my shooting preferences have changed.
Again, try before you buy!
Jim
The XD9 Sub Compact is also small enough to conceal and now comes in a low cost model called the Defender, which is an absolute bargain. As a house gun, you can switch over to the longer 16 round magazines or carry them for a reload.
I have shot the GLOCK 26 and it is as small as I am comfortable with.
The smaller, single stack 9m.m. pistols like the KAHR 9, GLOCK 43, S&W Shield and SPRINGFIELD ARMORY XDs models were just not comfortable enough to shoot for more than 50 rounds. I do not want a gun I cannot put at least a 100 round through it comfortably in one range session.
Off duty, I frequently carry a GLOCK 42 in .380ACP, as it is very concealable, shoots as well and accurately as a mid size 9m.m. and is GLOCK reliable.
The micro 9's are just too unpleasant to shoot, as far as I am concerned. I put 15 rounds through a RUGER LC9 and swore I would never shoot it again. On the other hand, the person who owned the RUGER, swears by it.
So my advice is to go to range that rents what you are interested in and try it before you buy.
I also shot the WALTHER P-99 AS Compact and found it to be too light for me to shoot accurately. I had a P-99 AS and thought it was an excellent pistol, but was not satisfied by the compact model.
Since everyone is different, take internet recommendations (including mine) with a grain of salt. I have also found that as I get older, my shooting preferences have changed.
Again, try before you buy!
Jim
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Sneakshot92
Member
+1 on the smith. I'm kicking around the idea of getting one myself.
FFGColorado
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Are there non striker fired Glocks? Not a DAO handgun, AFAIK..More, kinda like a revolver with hammer down with a partcially compressed striker spring(not enough to make it fire tho)...
JTQ
Member
See the Langdon video at post #40
One possibility is to buy one of the surplus Beretta 82's that are for sale on so many of the surplus websites right now. They are around $200 plus shipping and FFL charges. It is a 32acp pistol. IIRC, it holds 12 rounds. It would be very easy to use for a course, since it is an extremely well-made pistol with extremely low recoil.
If and when the OP felt comfortable with the Model 81, a Model 84 could be purchased. The Model 84 is not as inexpensive, but it is identical except that it is in 380acp caliber. I think mine cost somewhere in the mid $300's used, though it took some patient haunting of Gunbroker to find it for that price.
Also, the Models 81 and 84 feel and handle a lot like the Model 92, other than being smaller (maybe 2/3 or 3/4 sized). The OP could first become comfortable with the inexpensive Model 81. After that, if a Model 92 compact fit his hands well enough, it would be an extremely easy transition.
It's just a random thought I had. I have an 81, 82, 92, and 96. They are all very nice handguns.
I put aftermarket grips on my 81 and 84 to fit my XXL hands better. The 84 has a lot of finish wear. It was some kind of military surplus. The 81 is dirty in this picture, but it seemed to have barely been shot before I got it.
My Model 96 (40 caliber) was also military surplus. I got it for an outrageously low price due to it being a "Frankenstein gun" made of non-matching frame and slide. You can see the family resemblance to the two above.
View media item 1867
Thanks for the suggestion of the Cheetah! I'd never heard of it before and it was really interesting to read up on it. However, I don't want to buy online without personally handling it, since I want to make sure something feels good-in-hand. Also, from looking online, I don't think the safety acts as a decocker? From what I've found, the only way to lower the hammer is to manually lower it, and I'd like something where I can safely decock with a flip of a lever.
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