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subgun techniques

Discussion in 'Strategies, Tactics and Training' started by taliv, Dec 31, 2019.

  1. taliv

    taliv Moderator Staff Member

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    my interest is more clinical, not scenario based, so i won't get into the rathole of whether fighting a tyrannical government looks like civilian defensive use.

    i'm just thinking about how i would approach 3gun style stages with a smg, which is close to PCC but not exactly. i'm just wondering what my splits and transitions will be like using the sling vs a brace or stock, etc.
     
  2. AK103K

    AK103K Member

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    I dont really see a difference, and the SMG is a lot easier to use for most than a shotgun.

    I kept my MP5 handy for this type use for about 25 years. These days, its an AR "pistol". Both make more sense to me than a shotgun.


    And youre right, they are a lot of fun to play with too. :)


    The whole point of learning to use them, is being able to use them, should they ever be needed. At least thats how I look at things, and that goes for anything, not just things like this. Otherwise, whats the point?

    As far as the three gun thing goes, the only real difference is going to be what happens when you pull the trigger. The guns are basically the same otherwise.
     
  3. TikkaShooter

    TikkaShooter Member

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    There isn't any legitimate reason for FA in any civilian scenario. Some might disagree; perhaps because they haven't seen what one can do..
    My wife would "kill" me if I unloaded a FA AR or AK in her house. :D

    Even in one of those end of the world as we know it silliness. The sound of one would attract a lot of those who want it. Suddenly, it becomes a liability, not an asset.

    Most definitely a lot of fun as a toy and they still attract too much attention.

     
  4. taliv

    taliv Moderator Staff Member

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    All of my full autos were suppressed except the m60 belt fed. It for sure attracts attention.
     
  5. TikkaShooter

    TikkaShooter Member

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    I have a two stamp and a one stamp myself.
    As a graduate of Vietnam's school of jungle warfare; they eat too much for me when I can accomplish the same without expending more rounds than the "it" is worth. OTOH, there is no underestimating, the fun factor.
     
  6. shoobe01

    shoobe01 Member

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    The only subgun-specific technique I ever was even sorta taught was similiar to a similar-era shotgun technique, push(with strong hand)-pull (with support hand). It was... okay. I think really descended from the snap-shoot, barely-shouldered stuff, so may be related to the sling-supported techniques and others above.

    I think the best I've ever shot one is using (and this is not me being brilliant, also taught to me) carbine techniques. Get the stock really in there, drive the gun with a good grip well out on the forearm, and press/release the trigger as you would for a carefully-aimed semi-auto shot. You get 3-4 rounds, which should all be on target. Either hit it again, or drive the gun to the next target, press-release, repeat as necessary. Get good at reloads, as it uses a lot more ammo than semi! :)


    (I think: ) The subgun went away because the world nailed the concept of the carbine. Not just in the 5.56 (et al) small calibers, but later, as everyone got the gist of lighter guns, and shorter barrels (not the M16, but the CAR-types, then the ubiquity of the M4). And, modern manufacturing brought costs down for rifle caliber carbines.

    Think back to the heyday of the post-war subgun. Say, the IDF. Reservists in the '67 war showed up in their khakis, and got issued an UZI, a shoulder bag of mags, and two grenades. Easy to carry around for indifferent troops, effective at the ranges they can be trusted to identify and engage targets.

    The alternative, used by troops with any training, was the still pretty new and great FN FAL. A fine battle rifle (I have 1.5 of them), but pretty big and heavy. Loud, recoily. Hard to train reservists on. Ammo weighs a hell of a lot more, and takes more space, and it costs a LOT more to make and feed than a blowback SMG.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2020
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  7. jeepnik

    jeepnik Member

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    I worked with a Swedish K for a bit. SLOOOW rate of fire, but otherwise very good. Didn't really suit what I was doing. Used a borrowed Thompson a couple of times, liked it but heavy. And the M3 while cheap looking worked well and was relatively accurate, considering the sights.
     
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  8. AK103K

    AK103K Member

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    I always liked the M45 "Swedish K", and wished Id picked one up. I had a couple of buddies that had them, both the original and the Egyptian "Port Said" version.

    Are you sure you arent confusing the M3 with the M45? The M3 had the slowest rate of fire of all of them I think. Something like 300-350rpm or so.

    The M45 has about the same rate of fire as most of the other open bolt guns of the era, and are very easily shot and controlled.

    One thing thats cool with them is, you can shoot the standard 36 round mags with them, or the 50 round Soumi stick mags, and the 70 round Soumi drums.

    The other thing I always liked about them was their folding stock. I always thought it was the best of the lot of those old guns.
     
  9. taliv

    taliv Moderator Staff Member

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    FWIW I’m having a blast shooting this thing. I think I’m going to put a trijicon SRO on it. But I can move it pretty fast with the 50lb factory trigger and iron sights. (Or plastic sights I suppose since it comes with magpul flip ups)

    I’ve ordered a black Osprey to permanently attach it but just testing it with my tan one that lives on my fnp45 tactical

    Had no problem holding 6” steel at 50 yards and 3” -0zone in the head of idpa targets at 25yards both standing.

    1EAB1673-BED1-40F8-9A67-112CBEF41B89.jpeg


    Once I get the hbi trigger springs on it will prob be even better
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2020
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  10. TikkaShooter

    TikkaShooter Member

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    I've used the Swed K/Port Said; the K is a lot prettier.

    The K is the abbreviation for "Kulsprute" Pistol which roughly translated is "bullet spurter.” The Swedes must have a sense of humor? ;)
    As compared to more modern toys, slow cyclic; however, fast handling, very accurate and easily controllable. Up close, it is hard to beat.
     
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  11. Mick Boon

    Mick Boon Member

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  12. jeepnik

    jeepnik Member

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    No, I knew the M-3 was slow. But I had expected more from the "K". The Thompson was an early one that had a 50 rd drum. Would have been lighter with stick mags.
     
  13. jmorris

    jmorris Member

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    SMG’s? May 19 of 1986 kind of knocked the fun out of them for most folks.

    Some of the easiest to shoot and most fun are not even transferable to regular folks. Not pounds of reciprocating weight like the others but easy to control.



    I have seen them put lots of smiles on faces. What’s a civilian use for jumping out of airplanes, gambling, parks, camp grounds or anything else that could be done for entertainment?
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2020
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  14. Jenrick

    Jenrick Member

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    On the OP's question: The main reason you don't see much with PCC s/SMGs that's specific to them, is form factor wise they have largely moved to something very similar to carbines. Additionally most strive to have the same manual of arms. Older SMG's like the UZI, MP5, Sten, etc all feature unique manuals of arms that you had to train for. Sort of like the SMLE and the M1, both are rifles, but with very different ways of fighting with them. With the SMG/PPC world approaching singularity with either the AR or AK platform, there's no real need to have different techniques than what works with carbines. Yes there are things like the MP-7, P90, and Kris Vector, but theses are a lot rarer than the legion of PCC's the mimic the AR/AK platform these days.

    Also as a community the mil/LE/Comp shooters have stolen a lot from each other, and honestly there's a lot of overlap across all three areas. You'll see comp guys run the guns faster as their target discrimination is done on static targets with static target discrimination criterion. You'll see fingers stay on triggers as they sweep across no-shoots, and the muzzles stay's below the berm top and in the 180. Mil/LE tend to shoot a little more deliberately (the penalties for hitting a no-shot are a lot higher), but once the engagement starts, you'll see a lot more than 2-alpha hits (we trained for a long time to expect at least a half mag per target regardless of the weapon type). I could go on, but you get the idea.

    In short the modern sub gun technique has really married into the modern carbine technique. Legacy sub gun designs, do have their own unique quirks due to the manual of arms (H&K slap anyone?) and require training around them. With a 3+ second reload on the Uzi, you need to be good on your transitions. If you're running 9mm in both guns, what do you gain what do you lose? Gun fighting is all about the fighting part, the gun just happens to be the tool we brought to the fight.

    One interesting question for a three gun/two gun match would be to require say 5-10 hits on a target. Does running in FA, burst, or SA work best for that balance of speed and accuracy? I'd hazard an extended stock regardless of the trigger option would provide the best accuracy. I learned the H&K sling technique for the MP5K, and it does work at the distance the K was designed for. Given the option however I'll take a full stock on even the K (the side folder works very well to keep it small until you need to go loud).

    And on FA fire in LE, and the MP5 in specific:

    The main reason that so many SWAT teams for so many years have had a FA capability was because they could. The MP5 was THE gun of choice for many years mainly due to HK's good marketing. A FA MP5 is the same price as an SA only one (for agencies), and it was normally articulated to the brass that you needed to be able to put more of those pistol caliber rounds on target fast. In the MP5's defense on FA, it will put an entire magazine in a 3" circle at 7yds with a mag dump. It will do about a 2" circle in quick 2-3 round bursts. You can take an extra second or so and put 30 rounds into a 1" dot at 7yds semi-auto. Most agencies ran them on FA and trained to put the sight COM and hold the trigger tell the bad guy fell, due to the intrinsic accuracy and controllability of the weapon. Just prior to the shift in LE to the AR platform most places had gone to SA fire, with a failure drill mindset as there were several cases of offenders taking long burst and not going down due to drugs or body armor. The shift was felt to be more of a tactical decision regarding the need to address a changing level of threat then against the usage of FA.

    The AR platform never has been a FA platform for a number of reasons one was control, as it is much less controllable in FA then SA fire (especially compared to the MP5). A FA AR can keep all of it's rounds at 7 yds in a 4-5" circle on a FA mag dump, going to 2-3 rd bursts don't change that much. SA however can stack them on a 1" dot in a few seconds. The next was the higher lethality of the round compared to the MP5's 9mm (I'm talking 55gr Winchester Ranger XT SP's vs Gold Dot 9mm, not M855 Green tip vs. 9m ball), kept anyone from advocating a need to put half a magazine into a target like they had with the MP5. By this point in SWAT/LE liability had become the overriding concern for most agencies and being able to engage in precision fire with each round aimed sounds much better in court.

    In a civilian context, the need is for the weapon to provide the capability for fire that strikes the target in an area that will lead to rapid incapacitation to cause a cessation of the threat. The fastest way to achieve this is to have a weapon capable of utilizing aimed precision fire to deliver all rounds to these target areas. If a FA weapon is a capable of maintaining that standard of accuracy I don't see it as a detriment in terms of the gunfight. I don't see it as having any more utility then a SA either though. As civilians we don't have the need to break contact or use suppression fire to fix and flank a target.

    I'd say that with a weapon with minimal recoil (MP5, P-90, etc.) FA is not a disadvantage. The ability to control the weapon and still have acceptable accuracy even with a FA mag dump, allows the shooter to avoid stray rounds and put hits on the target. However a larger caliber weapon fired SA can put more powerful rounds (possibly with a higher amount of energy, bullet weight etc in one bullet then a burst of smaller rounds) into a target as/more accurately almost as fast. The choice becomes then which provides faster incapacitation and which lets you stretch your ammo further.

    I will admit for stopping a vehicle I would prefer FA, in the form of a M2 .50 or a possibly a MK19 40mm grenade launcher.
     
  15. Conelrad

    Conelrad Member

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    I bought a Military Armament M-10 .45 almost 40 years ago. Trained with Chuck Taylor on use, and learned the Sionic supressor was mandatory for proper function. Nowadays I drag it out at shoots, and train some newbys on how it works. They are surprised when putting 3-rd taps on targets over and over.

    Don't sell the old tech short, it still gets the job done.

    After all it was voted "The best kick open the door and rake the room" sub by Soldier of Fortune.

    Conelrad
     
  16. jeepnik

    jeepnik Member

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    Conelrad! Haven't heard of that in decades. Wonder when it was officially killed off.
     
  17. entropy

    entropy Member

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    Mag dumps are fun with SMG's especially when Uncle Sugar is footing the bill, we went through quite a few getting the CAR-15's timed right, but when it's working time, I was taught 3 per burst. I accidentally whizzed a 4th one past a Gunny's head once in a door kicking exercise, and learned at lot of things about my Mother and my lineage than I knew before that!
    I fired my first subgun, an M1A1 at 11, and was taught 3 round bursts by the Police Armorer that let me shoot it, and that Gunny reinforced that with many pushups. The last SMG I shot was an Uzi I rented at the Grand Opening of a local shop, and after the RO said "go ahead and cut loose" he was surprised I did nice neat 3 round bursts. Turned to me and said "Ranger?" "Nope, learned that from some Force Recon Marines". Of course, I was paying for the ammo. ;)
     
  18. CapnMac

    CapnMac Member

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    Note sure it actually was, only that one or the other of the FCC bills removed compliance from station licensing requirements.
    EAS has eclipsed it for eergency management, at least as far as the FCC seems to be concerned.
    If you dig a bit, there's not actually a requirement to shut down the low-power Conelrad system, just no requirement for new stations to have it. So, it may just be sitting out there as dormant as telegraph lines.
     
  19. 12Bravo20

    12Bravo20 Member

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    With the M3A1 "Grease Gun" we were taught to actually use the shoulder stock and to use short bursts. Single shots are quite easy with it too. You won't hit much past the first few rounds if you do a mag dump.
     
  20. Conelrad

    Conelrad Member

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    The term "Conelrad" was a 1950's cold war acronym for Control of Electromagnetic Radiation, aka radio waves. The thinking was Russian bombers would home in on AM radio stations, as cities had different frequencies and that could aid in direction findings.

    If every station in America went to one of two (640 & 1240) spots on the dial, it would really confuse navigators.

    Turns out it was never used in an attack, and was a royal pain for stations' engineering staff.

    I use it as my handle as I started in radio when it was still in effect up to '63.
     
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