Quantcast
  1. Upgrade efforts paused for now. Thanks for your patience. More details in the thread in Tech Support for those who are interested.
    Dismiss Notice

Supreme Court Issues Final Ruling: NYSRPA v. Bruen

Discussion in 'Legal' started by F-111 John, Jun 23, 2022.

  1. AlexanderA

    AlexanderA Member

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2011
    Messages:
    9,424
    Location:
    Virginia
    OK, the opinion talks about 43 states that are shall-issue, and 6 states that are may-issue (which by virtue of this decision are being converted into shall-issue). By my arithmetic that's 49 states that have some form of permit system. That leaves only one state with permitless carry. That can't be right -- there are actually quite a few states with permitless carry. Or are they including "optional" permits for reciprocity purposes in the shall-issue total?
     
  2. Styx

    Styx Member

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2014
    Messages:
    2,325
    The governor and others stated as much weeks ago. That they have a plan in place if SCOTUS rules against them. Part of that plan was to expand the sensitive places where carry will be illegal. They mentioned the Subway and public transportation, concerts, parades, etc. They also stated that they are going to make it illegal to keep a gun in your car unattended. That means if you are armed, you can't travel via public transportation (which most in NYC does), and if you drive a prohibited area/venue armed, you can't leave your firearm in your car. This will basically cause people to leave their firearms at home.
     
    GeoDudeFlorida likes this.
  3. wcwhitey

    wcwhitey Member

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2006
    Messages:
    2,744
    Cannot leave a gun in the car right now. All Concert venues are private property and have already been “no gun zones”. Even though not many walking around Manhattan carrying there are signs on just about every store, restaurant, etc. It’s NYC! So it sounds like a lot but it’s the usual nonsense. The Subway Is MTA as are the buses, almost a private entity but tax payer and Federal funded so that’s a legal hurdle. I am looking forward to going in with my wife Monday, definitely gonna be interesting to see what my County guys have to say!
     
    GeoDudeFlorida likes this.
  4. Styx

    Styx Member

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2014
    Messages:
    2,325
    Well to that I'd say that Heller clearly says in plan English that weapons in common use are protected by 2A from being banned, yet over 10 years after Heller, the most popular sporting rifles (assault weapons) are still banned. Other states have recently banned them and/or standard capacity magazines. Seems like they found a way around Heller just fine.
     
    Glockpride and GeoDudeFlorida like this.
  5. Styx

    Styx Member

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2014
    Messages:
    2,325
    Then there will basically be no point of carrying in NYC. Everything will be off limits, and carrying into a no gun zone will carry the force of law.
     
  6. Shanvanvocht

    Shanvanvocht Member

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2021
    Messages:
    140
    Location:
    Upstate South Carolina
    Vermont has never had a permit system, since they have never prohibited either open or concealed carry
     
  7. old lady new shooter

    old lady new shooter Member

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2015
    Messages:
    25,950
    This article from The Trace lays out some ways NY is planning to get around the ruling:
    https://www.thetrace.org/2022/06/supreme-court-ruling-bruen-new-york/
     
  8. 12Bravo20

    12Bravo20 Member

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2007
    Messages:
    4,889
    Location:
    Missouri
    I would have to say they are counting states that have constitutional carry (no permit required) but still issue permits for those that want one.

    I know Missouri falls into this category. We finally got constitutional carry a few years ago but still have the option to get a CCW permit if we want. I still renew my permit every 5 years since it allows me to carry in other states that recognize Missouri's permits. And the main reason that I maintain my CW permit is that it gives me a lot more legal protection here in Missouri versus not having a permit.
     
  9. Spats McGee

    Spats McGee Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2012
    Messages:
    6,506
    Location:
    Arkansas
    Chalk up Arkansas as "optional." We have a CHCL, and an Enhanced CHCL, but we also allow permitless carry. That's the result of Act 746 of 2013, if memory serves. I'm not convinced that our General Assembly really intended to make us a permitless carry state, but that's what they did.
     
    Styx likes this.
  10. F-111 John

    F-111 John Member

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2011
    Messages:
    1,278
    Location:
    Holt, MI
    This is addressed in the footnote on page 5 of the opinion (which is a continuation of footnote 1 on page 4, omitted here) (Emphasis added):

    704.5 (2022); Va. Code Ann. §18.2–308.04 (2021); Wash. Rev. Code §9.41.070 (2021); W. Va. Code Ann. §61–7–4 (2021); Wis. Stat. §175.60 (2021); Wyo. Stat. Ann. §6–8–104 (2021). Vermont has no permitting system for the concealed carry of handguns. Three States—Connecticut, Delaware, and Rhode Island—have discretionary criteria but appear to operate like “shall issue” jurisdictions. See Conn. Gen. Stat. §29–28(b) (2021); Del. Code, Tit. 11, §1441 (2022); R. I. Gen. Laws §11–47–11 (2002). Although Connecticut officials have discretion to deny a concealed-carry permit to anyone who is not a “suitable person,” see Conn. Gen. Stat. §29–28(b), the “suitable person” standard precludes permits only to those “individuals whose conduct has shown them to be lacking the essential character of temperament necessary to be entrusted with a weapon.” Dwyer v. Farrell, 193 Conn. 7, 12, 475 A. 2d 257, 260 (1984) (internal quotation marks omitted). As for Delaware, the State has thus far processed 5,680 license applications and renewals in fiscal year 2022 and has denied only 112. See Del. Courts, Super. Ct., Carrying Concealed Deadly Weapon (June 9, 2022), https://courts.delaware.gov/forms/download.aspx?ID=125408. Moreover, Delaware appears to have no licensing requirement for open carry. Finally, Rhode Island has a suitability requirement, see R. I. Gen. Laws §11–47–11, but the Rhode Island Supreme Court has flatly denied that the “[d]emonstration of a proper showing of need” is a component of that requirement. Gadomski
    v. Tavares, 113 A. 3d 387, 392 (2015).
    Additionally, some “shall issue” jurisdictions have so-called “constitutional carry” protections that allow certain individuals to carry handguns in public within the State without any permit whatsoever. See, e.g., A. Sherman, More States Remove Permit Requirement To Carry a Concealed Gun, PolitiFact (Apr. 12, 2022),https://www.politifact.com/article/2022/apr/12/more-states-remove-permit-requirement-carry-concea/ (“Twenty-five states now have permitless concealed carry laws . . . The states that have approved permitless carry laws are: Alabama, Alaska, Arizona, Arkansas, Idaho, Indiana, Iowa, Georgia, Kansas, Kentucky, Maine, Mississippi, Missouri, Montana, New Hampshire, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, Vermont, West Virginia, and Wyoming”).
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2022
  11. Paul7

    Paul7 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2008
    Messages:
    1,992
    Location:
    Florida
    Don't you think these restrictions will be challenged based on yesterday's decision?

    In lots of states your car is considered an extension of your home.
     
  12. Paul7

    Paul7 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2008
    Messages:
    1,992
    Location:
    Florida
    Exactly, no different from a locale saying gay marriage doesn't apply there.
     
  13. Paul7

    Paul7 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2008
    Messages:
    1,992
    Location:
    Florida
    Exactly, it is the difference between Natural Law, on which our legal system was founded, and Case Law, where the law is whatever five justices have decided, generally after sticking their finger in the wind of public opinion.
     
  14. dodo bird

    dodo bird Member

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2010
    Messages:
    796
    I spend time in nyc for work and I can’t say I agree with this. I saw what you are talking about with “no gun signs” in Chicago when they got CHL. Believe me there will be a lot of no gun signs in nyc. However I would rather avoid those places than not have the option. This is a huge win. Not just for NY.
     
    wcwhitey, BryanDavis and redcon1 like this.
  15. AlexanderA

    AlexanderA Member

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2011
    Messages:
    9,424
    Location:
    Virginia
    Disagree. Natural Law is not a thing (in our legal system). This is like going down the Sovereign Citizen rabbit hole.
     
  16. Styx

    Styx Member

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2014
    Messages:
    2,325
    I was born and raised in NYC. Lived in the Bronx and Mt Vernon, and attended a private school in Manhattan. My opinion is that unless you are visiting a friend or going for a walk in the NYC far away from schools, churches, police stations, etc, there's not really going to be much to do or anywhere else to go. I also see them harrasing and making examples out of gun owners who inadvertently break one of the minefield of laws on the books as an deterrent.
     
  17. starnbar

    starnbar Member

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2020
    Messages:
    263
    Actually the Constitution is based on several different books and charters one being the Magna Carta and the Bible the code of Hammurabi and several other prominent works through out history this document wasn't written in a month it took years before it was finalized and ratified
     
  18. GEM

    GEM Moderator Emeritus

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2004
    Messages:
    10,688
    Location:
    WNY
    The combination of having major retailers and other popular private locations being able to ban carry with the force of law and the inability to leave guns in the car negates most carry. The penalties will be important. Will it be a trepass warning, a minor misdemeanor but with permit cancellation, a felony? In a practical sense, those of us in the more lenient counties might lose practical carry rights.

    This might be another Heller example of not going far enough and not covering the obvious bases. I know this is complaining about a good thing but we have to see how the unintended consequences play out. I never understand why progun justices cannot make clear and decisive expansions of gun rights and don't think through the attempts to negate their intent. Ego, tendency to blather ?
     
    AlexanderA likes this.
  19. Paul7

    Paul7 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2008
    Messages:
    1,992
    Location:
    Florida
  20. AlexanderA

    AlexanderA Member

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2011
    Messages:
    9,424
    Location:
    Virginia
    I read your cited reference. It's a fringe site. I had to stop myself from bursting out laughing.

    The "Natural Law" theory actually undermines the fight for the RKBA. If we believe that rights are inherent, or are mandated from On High, then we don't have to lift a finger to assure them. They're just handed to us. No, every right that we have was wrested by people from their reluctant rulers. (The same rulers that based their rule on the Divine Right of Kings.) The Founding Fathers are a prime example of such a struggle. (And don't put much stock in the words of the Declaration of Independence -- which, BTW, has no legal effect. Jefferson was a consummate propagandist and hypocrite.)
     
    Frank Ettin likes this.
  21. Frank Ettin

    Frank Ettin Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2006
    Messages:
    12,747
    Location:
    California - San Francisco Bay Area
  22. wcwhitey

    wcwhitey Member

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2006
    Messages:
    2,744
    Just to give you some background, I was a Supervisor of a Manhattan Detective Squad when I retired. Not only do I know the city I know a bit about the laws. I also am fairly well versed in the NYPD’s Pistol Licensing process execution.
    You first have to separate NYC from the rest of the state. NYC is by far the worst abuser of the permit system in the state. There have been corruption scandals many times over the years, unless you are Robert DeNiro of Donald Trump and Unrestricted Carry Permit is almost impossible to obtain, as in maybe a 1000 in a population of 8 Million. Premise and Business permits are also difficult but somewhat more common. The system was always designed to discourage applications. It’s a throw back to Tammany Hall when those in power would only allow those with power to legally be armed. Permits from other NY Counties that were unrestricted we’re not honored in NYC let alone other States all under the Sullivan Act.
    The rest of the state varies, some counties would issue life long carry permits no problem, others varying degrees of restrictions. This is what was just thrown out.
    If anyone expects NYC to embrace concealed carry by the masses they are in for a big surprise. As it stands Off Duty Cops cannot carry at the Ground Zero Memorial (no kidding). I don’t know if one Broadway Theater that will allow you to carry on their premises. Forget a Stadium, Sports Event or Concert Venue. We all know Schools are out no matter the state. So if you add Government Buildings which already have restrictions there is not many places that you can go anyway! The thing to remember is it is NYC they will do what they do and the people there will be fine with it. Very few residents have been in this country more than a decade. It’s easy to say remember 9/11 and then you realize that 2/3 of the population was not in this country at that time.
    Again the rest of the state has a gun culture, can be fairly conservative and will have no problem lifting the restrictions as they were only following the law. The smaller cities, suburban counties and rural areas will take this seriously.
    This is a big win for NY and although I did not realize the impact it would have on other similar states I am very pleased that they will benefit from this as well. It will take a good amount of time for the dust to settle, new guidelines be drawn up and they will resist it all the way. Things will be challenged along the way. There is a big conservative movement in the state and hopefully that has some long term impact as well. I say it a bunch but Constitutional Concealed Carry is fairly new for a good part of this Country. I lived in Virginia in the 80’s and the only people allowed to carry a handgun was law enforcement or a friend of a Sheriff. It just wasn’t done. It’s an evolution, positive movement in the right direction. Never gonna be perfect but it will be better.
     
  23. LiveLife

    LiveLife Member

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2010
    Messages:
    29,978
    Location:
    Northwest Coast
    Nice and thank you for your post.
     
    DoubleMag and wcwhitey like this.
  24. F-111 John

    F-111 John Member

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2011
    Messages:
    1,278
    Location:
    Holt, MI
    Just a minor nit. Federal law exempts concealed pistol license holders from the Gun Free School Zones act, where state law then takes over.

    Several states allow some form of firearms carry on school grounds by CPL holders.

    https://www.ncsl.org/research/education/school-safety-guns-in-schools.aspx
     
    AZAndy, luzyfuerza and wcwhitey like this.
  25. wcwhitey

    wcwhitey Member

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2006
    Messages:
    2,744
    I did not know this, NY it’s already verboten as is storing a handgun in the car unattended. Kind of what I was thinking is that there won’t be a 180 more like a 45 degree shift.
     
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice