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Surgeon General Nominee Decidedly Anit-Gun

Discussion in 'Activism' started by hotajax, Mar 13, 2014.

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  1. Jeff White

    Jeff White Moderator Staff Member

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    Show me ONE verifiable, documented instance that proves this is true. Not a "researched based opinion" but a real world, actually happened incident.

    I won't hold my breath waiting.
     
  2. Pizzapinochle

    Pizzapinochle member

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    I'll start with the source of the material. It is a letter co-authored by Jay Dickey, the congressman who was the "NRA point man" in shutting down research on guns. Suffice to say, his views have changed.

    You say that, but he result of NRA actions has been that guns do NOT get studied as a part of the CDC efforts in any way and that is how the NRA wants it.
     
  3. Pizzapinochle

    Pizzapinochle member

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  4. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator Emeritus

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    I don't know how much guns do or don't get studied (seems like there are indeed lots of "gun studies" kicked around the internet, after all, if you have a gun in your home you're 5,311% more likely to be shot...etc.) but I certainly would rather see the CDC not spending money on gun studies than spending money on what I see as fundamentally wrong-headed predestined propaganda.

    We can wring our hands that maybe some small aspects of worth aren't being explored because the CDC itself cannot launch GUN-violence studies, but I'd call it far and away a net win.
     
  5. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator Emeritus

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    Interesting, the two studies contradict each other... but let's not get sidetracked.
     
  6. Jeff White

    Jeff White Moderator Staff Member

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    I am still waiting. You provided research. I want to see an actual case where one of these measures actually stopped an incident from occurring. A police report, a news report, something that says "On (insert date here) at (insert time here) (insert name here) decided to murder his wife, upon being told he had to wait to buy a handgun he went home and entered counseling"...or some other positive outcome.

    Because I can provide you with documentation of a murder I worked where the waiting period here in Illinois didn't stop it from happening.

    You provided research based on a telephone survey. That is not documentation, that is research. A guess. People guess wrong all of the time.

    I'm still waiting.
     
  7. Pizzapinochle

    Pizzapinochle member

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    Yeah, I just re read your post.

    Good joke.

    What you want is for me to post an instance when something did not happen. So... you want someone to have magically determined that a kid DEFINITELY would have shot himself, but the gun was locked in the cabinet b/c of safe storage laws, so nothing at all happened.

    If you have an "alternate reality generator," i'd be happy to explore the possibilities for you. Otherwise, we are left with the real world where we can only rely on what HAS happened.

    Studies show that states with safe storage laws have reduced childhood accidental shootings. That is the best real world you are going to get.
     
  8. Eb1

    Eb1 Member

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    :rolleyes: Just look at how prohibition saved so many lives. :rolleyes::uhoh:

    Here is a safe storage fact for you. I teach my children that guns kill. I also store them on my waist in a holster.

    You seem to be leaving out a lot of facts about kid shootings. Like the mom and dad were on dope, and the kid got the gun. Sometimes kids do get guns, and shoot other kids by accident. Maybe they were not taught to treat all guns like they are loaded. Instead they thought you could shoot somebody, and then hit a reset button. Or the parents relied on a safe to keep their kids safe instead of actually being parents.

    If you want to teach your kids about guns. Take them hunting! Let them see that death is real. Let them see the blood and the lifeless creature. Show them that meat doesn't come without consequence. Show them that once you pull the trigger things are never the same. Not even their life will be the same. Not only is their death, but there is feelings of taking life.
    This will put the fear in them. If they can learn to respect the gun, then all should be fine. The problem I see is you tell a kid "guns can kill", but you don't ever show them. How many times have you had to tell a kid "don't run on the kitchen floor because you'll bust your head."? Well they don't listen until they bust their head. Then the running in the kitchen stops. This is true for all generations. Kids fight for independence, but there are some things you can force them into understanding without an irreversible accident happening.

    Sorry if this is a little off topic, but I can't stand gun haters always trying to blame the metal object or regulate by law what is common sense logic. Guns do kill. They can be used for more such as sporting events and fun, but unless there is a respect for guns accidents happen. It seems simple to me. I guess it is that I am from the South, and we do hunt and fish, and have a better understanding of how a gun is used. I don't know the answer other than what I do seems to be working. What was taught to me worked, and if more people would do the same then there wouldn't be all of this BS that keeps being brought up.

    The govt isn't on your side. They are a for profit organization at this point. Fear and misleading people is on their side. Having a surgeon general claim that wanting a gun is an illness would be an atrocity to the Nation's safety.
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2014
  9. Jeff White

    Jeff White Moderator Staff Member

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    Studies also show that saturated fat is bad for you. Except now it isn't:

    http://finance.yahoo.com/news/eat-fried-chicken-want-174400647.html

    Studies are worthless when they are designed to prove a theory. That's why I have asked you to provide proof, in the way of something that actually happened. We live in the real world, not some fantasy world.

    I can provide you with thousands of examples where the measures that your "studies" say are so effective failed. Yet you are unable to provide me ONE instance where they actually stopped something from occurring.

    The problem with your line of reasoning is that you don't understand how things work in the real world. Most batteries and murders are spur of the moment, in the heat of passion type actions. No one gets angry to the point of violence at their spouse or someone else and then doesn't do them harm because they had to wait to buy a gun. If they didn't have one already, they picked up a knife, a club, or used their bare hands to carry out the act of violence.

    I can point to a murder that happened here 20 years ago that was planned and the murderer actually went out and bought the gun in advance, waited the 24 hours required by Illinois law, picked up the gun, telling the sales clerk at Wal Mart that it was for her husband, went home and shot him dead.

    The waiting period had zero deterrent effect.

    I can also point to plenty of instances where firearms being locked up in a safe did not stop children from gaining access.

    I'm still waiting for you to show me ONE verifiable report that these measures you espouse actually stopped a firearm from being misused.

    I live in the real world. Not some fantasy world where things happen the way some telephone survey say they should. I spent 25 years dealing with the real world. Being the first on the scene. Investigating what happened. Arresting the suspects. Testifying in court. My opinions on these matters aren't based on some survey. They are based on what does and doesn't work in the real world.
     
  10. Bartholomew Roberts

    Bartholomew Roberts Moderator Emeritus

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    Again, here is the entire text of the 1996 Dickey Amendment: "none of the funds made available for injury prevention and control at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention may be used to advocate or promote gun control"

    What part of that language do you object to or have a problem with PizzaPinochle?

    And once again, this isn't unusual language by any means. There are many, many restrictions on how CDC grant money may be used. 31 USC 1352 is just one example of a very similar restriction on CDC grant money. If prohibiting the CDC from using grant money to lobby for gun control is so harmful to research, then why so little objection to these other restrictions?

    Here is how the CDC interprets the Dickey Amendment:
    "In addition to the restrictions in the Anti-Lobbying Act, CDC interprets the language in the CDC's Appropriations Act to mean that CDC's funds may not be spent on political action or other activities designed to affect the passage of specific Federal, State, or local legislation intended to restrict or control the purchase or use of firearms."

    So what problem do you have with this interpretation? This makes the second time I've pointed out the exact language of the Amendment and noted that you are mischaracterizing the debate here. Yet you haven't challenged this fact or attempted to show how thus language affects research the CDC should be doing - you just restate that the NRA is blocking research without any factual support. Why?
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2014
  11. hso

    hso Moderator Staff Member

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    Since the nomination failed this discussion should be taken up elsewhere.
     
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