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SWAT team kicks down wrong door again...

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by trooper, Mar 14, 2004.

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  1. trooper

    trooper Member

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    http://www.n-tv.de/5222746.html

    Tuesday, March 9th, 2004

    Raid against biker gang
    SWAT team searches wrong house.

    Munich police officers forcibly entered the home of a law-abiding family during a raid against the motorcycle gang "Bandidos" because they took the wrong door.

    Three to six armed SWAT officers had entered the family's home in Gammelsdorf near Munich on Monday morning, a police spokesman confirmed on Tuesday. He claimed that there were no roadsigns in the small village and the numbers were hard to read.

    According to the report, the parents had just gotten up when they were subdued by officers with submachine guns. The 10 and 15 year-old daughters were still sleeping at that time.

    The error was noticed within a couple minutes. "We soon learned that we had assaulted the wrong structure when we saw the inhabitants," the spokesman said.
     
  2. GunWares

    GunWares Member

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    "George is my friend. I like George."
     
  3. Mark Tyson

    Mark Tyson Member

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    They have the Bandidos in Germany, too?
     
  4. trooper

    trooper Member

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    Bandidos, Hell's Angels and a couple smaller gangs. The latter tend to disappear, though...

    Bandidos and Angels are regarded as criminal organizations over here and account for a large percentage of drug trafficking and prostitution in Europe. Some of their local chapters have been outlawed.

    There have been some interesting cases up in Scandinavia a couple years ago when members of those two groups decided to duke it out in broad daylight in public with all kinds of military hardware up to RPG's.


    Regards,

    Trooper
     
  5. Samurai Penguin

    Samurai Penguin Member

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    Yes they do...the Bandidos, Hell's Angels and many other MC are international organizations.

    I kinda like how the German SWAT teams think: Hmmm. We were looking for a bunch of greasy, tattooed, meth-snorting, beer-swilling bikers. Yet all we've seen here are a couple and their two daughters. Looks like we have the wrong house.

    Now, an American SWAT team would probably have hauled them downtown and spent hours grilling the entire family: Who tipped you we were coming? Where'd you hide the drugs and motorcycles? Confess, and we'll go easy on you. Oh, don't know anything, eh? Bend over, sir, we'll be searching more thoroughly for contraband... ;)

    (Just yanking peoples' chains a bit...for the most part) :evil:
     
  6. Kentucky Rifle

    Kentucky Rifle Member In Memoriam

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    The SWAT Team kicking in my door accidentally has been something I've thought about a lot. In the day time, when I'm fully awake, I would naturally lay face down on the floor until they had determined that they had hit the wrong house. However, if it happened at night, I would end up dead. Out of what I call "sleep", I would roll out of bed and put 26 rounds of 5.56 into their "little crowd" as the PTSD made me hear the rocks in cans and hear the piercing scream--"They're in the wires"! "I would be back". I would also see what I just described. The remaining people of the SWAT Team would kill me.

    Anyone else have a wounded mind who will admit it?

    KR
     
  7. trooper

    trooper Member

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    Penguin -

    I dunno... when I was in Border Police College we learned that you try to gather as much information as possible before you carry out a raid.

    And busting a house with known violent, possibly armed suspects inside without doing some covert reconnaissance before strikes me as pretty careless and irresponsible.

    I won't talk about the officers' reading abilities...



    Regards.

    Trooper
     
  8. Pilgrim

    Pilgrim Member

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    "Is this the place?"

    "I don't know."

    "I thought you have been here before."

    "Not me, that was Fred."

    "Where's Fred?"

    "He called in sick."

    "What's the address on the warrant?"

    "I don't know. I didn't read it. Didn't you read it?"

    "No. Anyone here read the warrant?"

    "Does anyone here have the warrant?"

    "Let's try this place. Maybe we will get lucky."
     
  9. TheFederalistWeasel

    TheFederalistWeasel member

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    In other news…

    In other news…

    God only knows how many other Search Warrants were correctly and successfully served on that day, with out incident or injury.

    A lot of folks here will maintain, against the gun grabbers when a shooting takes place that 80 million gun owners killed no one on that same day. The same can be said of all the other cops in the world in regards to a SWAT Team or any unit taking down the wrong house.

    I am slowly but surely getting fed up with all the anti-authoritarians and anti-cops types here.

    We have a tough job to do if you don’t like we the way we do it then get off your collective butts and join the force and do it yourselves!!!

    Just how many search warrants have you served in your life times?

    Just how many person(s) with a gun calls have you answered in your lifetimes?

    Just how many times have you done a felony traffic stop?

    Just how many times have you been shot at or attacked with a knife?

    Just how many times have you walked into a mad crowd attempting to bring resolve and calm?

    A mile in my shoes is all I ask before you pass judgment upon my brother and sisters and I.


    :banghead: :banghead: :fire:
     
  10. pax

    pax Member

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    FederalistWeasel,

    While I'm not exactly insensitive to the "walk a mile in my shoes" plea above, I have to point out it cuts both ways. If you as a LEO think we non-LEOs should walk in your shoes, I humbly suggest you should walk in ours as well. Think how these things look from our side of the bullhorns.

    If you're on a SWAT team that raids the wrong house, it can mess up your whole day.

    If you're in a house that is wrongly raided by a SWAT team, it can mess up your whole life -- what's left of it, anyway.

    These incidents alarm and frighten so many of us who are armed simply because we can well imagine the terrible consequences should a SWAT team wrongfully enter our homes. KR points out that he would come out of sleep slinging lead in a vivid flashback. I picture the split second choice -- shoot or surrender? Given the increasing number of home invasions by true BGs mimicking SWAT tactics, it is not an easy choice. Do I want to die swiftly by gunfire (shot at the good guys, oops) or slowly by torture (didn't shoot at the BGs, oops)? Could I live with myself if I wrongfully shot a cop? Would I live at all if I surrendered to a BG imitating a cop? And whyinhell should I have to choose either?

    If the cops' tactics are so frightful that BGs want to copy them, perhaps the tactics are not as benign as my cop friends want to think.

    Face it: knocking people's doors over in the dead of night is a horrific business. Knocking the wrong people's doors over is even more horrific. It is hardly surprising that people would be horrified by it.

    pax

    A policeman's job is only easy in a police state. -- Orson Welles
     
  11. TechBrute

    TechBrute Member

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    We shouldn't have to walk a mile in your shoes to expect you to do your job properly, and let's see how understanding you are when they kick your door in accidentally and shoot your dog. Or OC your wife. Or throw your daughter to the ground because she's too scared to comply.

    This kind of inexcusable bungling is not limited to para-military SWAT Teams. The local Grand Prairie Police arrested a lady (Ms "Smith")that goes to my church for check fraud. Now the only reason that they thought that Ms Smith was the check writer was that her address was the one printed on the checks (who would print their real address on forged checks, anyway?). The police came to her house, asked her if she wrote the checks. Naturally, she said no. They decided not to believe her, even though they really had no reason to believe that she did it, so they arrested her. She is a widowed mother of 4 and the police drug her off in handcuffs and left the kids (ages 2, 3, 5 and 8) in the house by themselves. The LEOs were nice enough to let her use the phone after 1.5 hours of questioning to call the church so that her sister could go to the house and care for the kids, who had been alone for over 2 hours by now, and were obviously distraught.

    In this case, the city of Grand Prairie decided that this particular bungle was worth $25k, the award in the wrongful arrest suit. I'm sure your first reaction is disbelief that the city didn't stand behind the errant cops. Well, they did. The 2 officers recieved 1 week mandatory vacation... errr... paid administrative leave. Hmmm... I wonder why the "Smith" family isn't pro-cop... Hmmm... probably didn't do much for the attitudes of the church, her neighbors, her friends...

    If you want a public servant job where people will like you and you can make a positive difference, be a fireman. Better yet, work for the Y, Salvation Army, or Red Cross. Of course you won't be able to carry a gun along with your superiority complex.:D
     
  12. J Miller

    J Miller Member

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    FederalistWeasel and other LEO's,

    When LEO's make a mistake involving law abiding citizens, the citizens will suffer severe tramatic emotional injuries at the least. Many times they are physically injured, or killed.

    LEO's will then say; Oh sorry we made a mistake, and 99 times out of a hundred they go home to their families and are exonerated by the departments.

    What recourse do we private citizens have against your militaristic might and attitudes? NONE.
    If we survive your invasive and destructive attacks and home invasions we can't have you arrested, your immune to that.
    Your are "acting in good faith" is what I've heard said way to many times.

    If we stand up for ourselves we will most likely be killed, if not we will be arrested. Then we suffer criminal charges and will most likely be convicted of non existant crimes end up in prison because of YOUR mistakes.

    We law abiding citizens are in a NO WIN situation when you LEO's make mistakes.
    No mater what WE do, WE LOSE.

    Pax worded it much better than I can, but I have absolutly NO sympathy for LEO's in general. LEO's in general have lost contact with the people they are supposed to protect. To many have the "If your not one of us, your a criminal" attitude.
    LEO's in general have WAY to much power, and that gives them an arrogent attitude that citizens are trash to be shoved around as they please.

    If you don't like us voicing our wories and fears about the mistakes LEOs make, then don't read these threads.

    J:fire: e
     
  13. 4v50 Gary

    4v50 Gary Moderator Staff Member

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    remember gang, this incident cited above happened in Germany...

    and our legal standards should not be applied to them.

    However, something is wrong in Grand Prarie. It's one thing to arrest a person at their home (and no where does it state that a SWAT team was involved), but quite another to leave itty bitty kiddies alone unsupervised by an adult. Whether the arrest was good or bad, their sergeant should have blown a fuse if a relative or child protective services or some social worker wasn't called to look after them. Grand Prarie was lucky to get off with only $25k.
     
  14. Andrew Rothman

    Andrew Rothman Member

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    TFW:

    With great power comes great responsibility.

    When you're breaking down doors, "...(T)here were no roadsigns in the small village and the numbers were hard to read." is not an adequate excuse.

    This was, by any measure, an indefensible f-up, and should result in severe consequences against officers who found the signs so hard to read that they figured, what the heck, let's just try this house!

    I would save your defense of your fellow lawmen for more, well, defensible actions.
     
  15. TechBrute

    TechBrute Member

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    I agree. She did not want to endure a long trial and took the first settlement offer from the city.
     
  16. trooper

    trooper Member

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    Guys, I really didn't intend to start a cop-bashing thread. I've been a police officer myself and hopefully become one again this year.

    FederalistWeasel, while I couldn't check all items on your list yet, I think I know what being a cop really means from my own experience.

    But being a shooter and gun enthusiast in Germany (and thus being under the constant scrutiny of the authorities), I'm also very aware of how important it is that government agencies not only follow the law but also keep in mind that they are part of the communities themselves.

    Yes, police work is hard, often dangerous and sometimes dirty, and I have great respect for my former colleagues. But some of them occasionally need to be reminded that they cannot get away with anything just because they wear a uniform and hold a badge.

    And now calm down, everybody...



    Regards,

    Trooper
     
  17. El Tejon

    El Tejon Member

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    This happened in Germany? Wow!:eek:

    When the German SQUAT team left, the house had never been so clean and organized. "Ja, who broughten zee ecktenschen corden fur der vacummcleaneren?" Hans, move der couch, mach schnell.":D
     
  18. goalie

    goalie Member

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    Actually, a very good case can be made that no-knock warrants should only be issued in very extreme cases, and that the fear by law enforcement that the drugs will get "flushed" is not extreme enough to meet the requirements, as the threat to the general public through common issuance of no-knock warrants in those situations is too great and is not justified. Hostage situations, for instance, would meet the criterea.
     
  19. Weimadog

    Weimadog Member

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    Kentucky Rifle, could you please explain what this means?

    I can't make any sense of it.
     
  20. PATH

    PATH Member

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    Are there bad LEO's? Yes. The majority of LEO's that I have met are pretty decent folks doing a crap job. Are mistakes made? Yes there are. How many are there in relation to the number of warrants they take action on?

    No one here likes to see gun owners all painted as toothless yahoos when one of our number does something incredibly stupid. Why do we want to paint law enforcement officers with a broad brush?

    I believe more training and a thorough investigation of what happened is warranted. Corrective measures should be taken where needed. Bashing LEO"S, many of whom are on our side, is counterproductive. Yes, there are jack booted types but your average joe or jane does not wake up in the morning with thoughts of making you miserable.

    As for officers leaving kids unsupervised, well, that shows a lack of gray matter. Yes, there are LEO's who are idiots. Every job description has a few idiots filling its ranks. Why would LEO's be any different.

    Folks, we need to stand together and address specific LEO's and specific incidents! Would anyone here think that Lawdog is a jackbooted thug? Hell NO!!! Let us remain civil and not attack friends. Yes, we have a great many friends in the LEO community. They are our family and friends! We live in the same community.

    As a proud THR member I support our LE community. Remember that a large number of members here are LEO's! A house divided against itself cannot long stand.

    Please gang let us tone down the rhetoric and deal with individuals and not paint with a broad brush!
     
  21. trooper

    trooper Member

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    El Tejon,

    it seems that nowadays people are kinda quick to call SWAT, give them minimal informations and send them in to sort things out.

    I posted another SWAT incident here.

    Note that both things happened in Bavaria...


    Trooper
     
  22. Cal4D4

    Cal4D4 Member

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    For Weimadog...

    I have had a bunch of friends about 5 years older than me that chose or were chosen to journey to a distant land about 35 years ago and implement some policy decisions. A few of them still are said to wake up screaming in the middle of the night in a cold sweat with bad dreams, sometimes feeling like they were fighting for their lives AGAIN. Post Traumatic Stress Disorder.

    HTH
     
  23. El Tejon

    El Tejon Member

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    trooper, wow, both incidents are so contrary to the German nature that I find it hard to believe. Herr Murphy gets around!:D
     
  24. trooper

    trooper Member

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    Hmm... how's that?
     
  25. El Tejon

    El Tejon Member

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    No having things in order.:uhoh:
     
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