SWAT team shoots suicidal Fla. student

[roo_ster]

Nah, you don't have to have a resume chock full of military & police experience to express criticism...but it helps. Think of Aristotle's Rhetoric: logos, pathos, & ethos.

We do know a few things:
1. Kid had what looked like a gun
2. Kid was in a school
3. Kid was disturbed/unstable
4. Other children were still present, though locked down
5. Kid pointed his gun at an officer
6. Officer perceived the threat and responded

What don't we know, yet?:
1. What was behind the officer. Open field, impenetrable barrier, or kindergarten full of hemophiliac children?
2. What was the construction of the interior walls. Cinder block or drywall or what?
3. What the police were planning to do. Perhaps they planned on using some sort of mobile robot, CS, or other wonderful technical solution du jour?
4. How much time they had to plan & respond. Did they have time to deploy assets other than those carried by individual members? What were those assets?

IMO, the shooting officer(s) did the right thing, given the what we know of the knowledge they had.

Just who here would not respond in a similar threat, especially if you know that other kids were still in the building?

 

[GEM]

The student eventually exited the bathroom and pointed the gun at his own head and throat. When he "raised the firearm in a tactical position and pointed it" at one of the SWAT team members, the officer "decided to use deadly force," Eslinger said.

If this is true, then the shooting was tragic but justified. There will be pain all around. The officer will certainly suffer. I hope that department has good policies for such.

Might they have glued the door shut and then starved him out? Perhaps, but this was a dynamic situation. If they talked to him and then he came out in a threatening way - there is no other real choice.

 

[Manedwolf]

I have said it many times. I am sick of people blaming the media i.e.: TV,Movies,Video Games,The News, Internet, ect.

For example: If you watch "Jackass", "Fear Factor" they put a disclaimer at the beginning of the broadcast. Which I think is utterly stupid. A reasonable, articulate, sound minded everyday person would not let random people kick them in the groin or ride a shopping cart down a hill to purposely hit the side of a building or even try to drive a car onto a moving tractor trailer or walk on a bungee cord across two skyscrapers or even eat pig whatever.

Even if I wanted to try a stunt I see on “Jackass” or “Fear Factor” or even pro-wrestling, if I et hurt…that is my fault. I am not going to sue the producer of the television show or media for them “giving me the idea”. Which I see as sad that these morons try these stunts and it gives the media a bad name.

So they are forces to place a disclaimer, and people still are able to sue. And they win.

That is about as pathetic as complaining that McDonald’s made me weigh 250lbs.

I don’t believe impressionable children should be watching those shows anyway. But it is the parents duty to police their activities and what they watch,

That is why I hate the FCC or any other stupid liberal socialist government group that puts the blame everywhere other than where it belongs and that is 90%parents and 30% with the school (yes I know I wrote 90% and 30%).

Lets go back to a55 whipping in school. Maybe that will straighten these little brats out.

Good shirt:

 

[Manedwolf]

Airsoft guns are not lethal unless you point it at the wrong person like the kid who was just shot did. Airsoft guns can cause harm and should be treated with responsibility. American airguns however are potentially lethal because they fire metal and not plastic.

BTW, according to all recent news reports, the kid had deliberately painted the gun's red tip black to make it look real.

That is NOT an accident on his part. His intent was clear.

 

[Jeff White]

ka50 said;

It's called common sense. Robot cameras are just remote control platform with a camera attached. Can't be more than a couple of grand.

Well I can see by your extensive experience in these matters, you've developed enough common sense to know where you can buy a robot suitable for SWAT use for a couple of grand. How about sharing that info with the rest of us. My chief would be particularly interested. They are trying to get the cost down to about $30,000.00

http://www.nlectc.org/jpsg/robotassessment/appendixa.html

Most available devices are much more expensive.

If they didn't have this, then again, this is a fault of swat team management and commanding staff.

Well it would be wonderful to have an unlimited budget. When was the last time you showed up at a city council meeting and demanded your taxes be raised so that the department could buy a robot? Please copy us with the letters you've written to your elected representatives demanding a tax increase...

To evacuate school takes about 7-10 minutes.

How do you know this? Were the kids locked down in their rooms? What are the school district's procedures for an active shooter? What is the physical layout of the school was it possible that they might have had to move past a danger area where the boy was?

There is no way that you can make a statement like that without firsthand knowledge of the situation. Anyone can sit there in the comfort of his desk chair and pull any scenario out of his head and post it on an internet forum.

Banging the kid with a flashbang is still much better than putting a bullet through his brain.

So when the boy walked out of the bathroom and pointed his weapon at the officer, the officer should have thrown a flashbang at him?

I'm pretty sure tear gas would be enough, though.

And again I ask you, what knowledge you possess that makes you pretty sure tear gas would have been enough? What's the layout of the building? What is the ventilation system in the building like? What kind of gas did they have available to them? Until you can answer those questions, you're just making WAGs.

What if they had introduced gas into the bathroom and the boy would have come out pointing his weapon at the officers? Wouldn't the results have been the same?

The bottom line the kid is dead and the supposedly elite police unit did not accomplish it's mission to dissolve the situation, instead it used deadliest force in their arsenal.

When you talked professional to professional with the team commander, did he tell you that this was their plan? How do you know that that's what they intended to do? Can you say for certain that they weren't in the process of preparing to make contact with the boy when he came out of the bathroom and pointed his gun at the officer? Do you know if a crisis negotiator was on scene or enroute?

The fact is, and all of your WAGs and speculation won't change it, is that the boy sealed his own fate when he chose to exit the bathroom and point his weapon at the officer. There is only one person responsible for this boy's death, and that's the boy himself. No one will ever know if this was a suicide by cop or exactly what motivated the boy to come out pointing his weapon, But you're not in any position to judge the actions of the SWAT team based on the information in the news articles. And unless you actually know enough about how these situtations are handled, what the unit's SOPs and TTPs for that type of situation are, you're still just making WAGs....

Jeff

 

[pete f]

First of all, 8th grade plus 6 year old start means median age of 8th graders is 14, so depending on his birthday and his start age, being 15 is not off the curve and does not place him as being "behind" Also in many southern states, boys are held behind a year to start school intentionally, because when they get to high school it gives them a leg up in athletics. This is how you get 20 year old seniors and 21 year old College football players.

Second. I know there are fiber optic hand held devices and cameras that are available for under a few grand. Now, think too, you are spending 59 bucks a shot on flash bang grenades and CS gas canisters for stopping people. Lets get over cost of equipment, most police dept. (flame proof suit on) have the money for something like this, or at least a regional response unit if not the local cop shop. I see what kind of money gets spent in my local PD, and on what, and yes it may have good intentions, but on a cost benefit analysis, lots of things have to get weighed over gee whiz factor vs practical utility.

Third. the kid is in a bathroom, ALL kids bathrooms in schools tend to be pretty substantial places. This is a matter of design, Middle schools are built as a matter of design to be child proof. bomb proof, little punk with no mama proof. Now think about it, more than likely in a florida school, this kid is in a block or concrete walled room. Where he is, is the safest place in the school to keep him. now that same confined space, with block walls and echoic tile walls, is just what the dr ordered for optimum use of a flash bang, even if he had a room full of kids in there, and a flash bang goes off, they are comiing out alive. They may stumble nad fall and say "WHAT" a lot. but it would have beat taking a shot.

fourth, the kids has a gun. period, NO ONE can have said what he held would not have been eyeballed as a gun from anything over ten feet. This is a reason my son does not have one...lots of his friends do and they play with them a lot. But this was used to point out to my son why having one is not a good idea.

Fifth. I do not think that anything I have seen on TV or read in the paper has given me the indication of bad parenting.

sixth. Bullying is getting to be a big problem. much bigger because no fighting is ever allowed. Teachers I know say fights still occur but for the most part, the school policies of preventing fighting and discouraging "violence" has infact intensified the roll bullying has taken. Thinking that recess was a place for violence to happen, recess has been eliminated. Instead that recess was a place for growing boys to get animosity and aggression out of their systems. Kids are not given an outlet for what is naturally going on in their bodies. when it is confined, pressure develops, and things blow. somekids hit drugs, some hit booze, some it just releases in other ways, sports, music, theatre. but in some kids, it results in a feeling that the only way to fix things, is to resort to hitting things. In my life, it was a fist to the nose. Now it is a gun.

Suicide by cop may still be suicide, but in the demented mind of a kid (or Adult) under pressure, It may be a way to escape that feeling that suicide is a sin. yeah the cop is getting a bad rap here. I think from a monday morning quarterback he is a getting a bad rap. But I also think maybe the PD needs to examine what happened and wonder about tactics if they may have better options if they think about it .

 

[joab]

Fifth. I do not think that anything I have seen on TV or read in the paper has given me the indication of bad parenting.

How about the fact that this was not an isolated incident.
He had run away several times plus he had already threatened to blow up a school bus that had a kid that he didn't like on it.

As far as bullying, he was the one that wanted to fight a kid for taking his girlfriend

Now think about it, more than likely in a florida school, this kid is in a block or concrete walled room.

you obviously have not been to one of our schools.

Also in many southern states, boys are held behind a year to start school intentionally, because when they get to high school it gives them a leg up in athletics. This is how you get 20 year old seniors and 21 year old College football players.

I went to school and played football in Fla, my father was a football, track and basketball( at different times) coach Fla, My oldest son played football and wrestled in Fl., My sisters both ran track in Fla schools, I have never heard of this practice

 

[pete f]

My parents now live in florida. i have a house there, too. i have cousins by marriage all thru the south, tennessee, mississippi, alabama and texas. I would say over half of the kids were either started late or repeated in grade to make sure they were "late kids" It is a term I have heard several times, he is a late 3 rd grader. meaning he has stayed behind a year to get a year older.

In the area my parents are in, all the schools are Block or concrete. interior and exterior walls. My wife and I spent a lot of time looking because we were debating moving there full time and wanted to see what the schools were like. In the gulf coast florida area below Tampa, every school building we went in was block. protection from storms and insects. that is what i was told. One school official even told me, dry wall should be outlawed in that climate.

In the news i had heard, there was no mention that he had any interactions with the law or school security/discipline prior to the events leading to his death.

 

[joab]

n the news i had heard, there was no mention that he had any interactions with the law or school security/discipline prior to the events leading to his death.

Several reports show him having a runaway history and tell of hie threat to blow up a bus last year.
He had only recently returned to the school from a "charter school" (short bus) for disciplinary problems.

In the area my parents are in, all the schools are Block or concrete. interior and exterior walls. My wife and I spent a lot of time looking because we were debating moving there full time and wanted to see what the schools were like. In the gulf coast Florida area below Tampa, every school building we went in was block. protection from storms and insects. that is what i was told. One school official even told me, dry wall should be outlawed in that climate.

Maybe it should be illegal, but it certainly isn't.
The Milwee I knew was a post WWII era "bomb proof" building in the 90s it was rebuilt as were many, with shoddy workmanship typical of Central Fla.
Eslinger's own building had to be practically rebuilt after years of fighting with the contractor. I believe it was the same contractor

My parents now live in Florida. i have a house there, too. i have cousins by marriage all thru the south, Tennessee, Mississippi, Alabama and teas. I would say over half of the kids were either started late or repeated in grade to make sure they were "late kids" It is a term I have heard several times, he is a late 3 rd grader. meaning he has stayed behind a year to get a year older.

I would have to see a link on the phenomenon. Like I said my family has extensive history with school sports in central Fla and I have never heard or seen this practice. Our kids are held back alot because they are pretty dumb.

My ex and I held our youngest back because he was an "early kid". Meaning he started early due to his July birthday And due to heart defect and a midget mother he was also smaller than the other kids and never fit in causing his grades to suffer. He was held back in order to be put with his own age group that happens often enough that I have heard of it but not for sports which just aren't that important here.

 

[TechBrute]

I'm pretty much the king of second guessing the cops and looking on their institution in a generally dim light.

However...

I don't really feel that the cop in this situation had any sort of obligation to have special mental telepathy, robots, fiber optics, etc. He was trying to protect himself and those around him. Stupid kid comes out, waves a gun, gets shot. Case closed. The fact that the gun wasn't real only came out after the fact, and every indication is that the kid took steps to ensure that the gun would look as real as possible. It's too bad that darwin had to make such a scene with this one. I'd prefer that the stupid ones don't affect those around them when they meet the survival of the fittest law.

I feel for the person that shot the kid. I think it was justified, although this type of second guessing by mostly ignorant internet patrons is to be expected, and is useful as part of a society. I can't imagine the feelings the person must be experiencing as a result, and I would bet he is second guessing his own actions more than anyone else.

As an aside, since this kid apparently painted the toy gun's red tip black, shouldn't we have a law to prevent that? :banghead: Also, I would think that painting a real gun's tip red might really throw the wrench at the cops if you used the gun in some sort of hostage/robbery/standoff situation.

 

[Janitor]

As an aside, since this kid apparently painted the toy gun's red tip black, shouldn't we have a law to prevent that? Also, I would think that painting a real gun's tip red might really throw the wrench at the cops if you used the gun in some sort of hostage/robbery/standoff situation.

My feeling on it is that the LEO should still have shot, even if the kid hadn't painted the muzzle black. One fear I have is that cops (any given cop) will hesitate at a life threatening moment because of an orange muzzle. Solely because of what you mentioned. I believe we've already had more than one incident of a bad guy doing just that - painting the muzzle on a real pistol orange.

I would bet he is second guessing his own actions more than anyone else.

My guess is that you're spot on. Once again ... I hope this LEO can sleep at night. Only he and others that were there know for sure if this was a good shoot. If it was (and it certainly sounds like it) - I hope he's not beating himself up over it and that he's getting support from his peers/superiors if he needs it. Nobody should be thrust into a situation like that one.

 

[WillBrayJr]

BTW, according to all recent news reports, the kid had deliberately painted the gun's red tip black to make it look real.

That is NOT an accident on his part. His intent was clear.

Did I say it was an accident on his part? Short answer NO!!!
Alot of airsoft player's choose to either cover, remove or switch the orange muzzle with a non orange one. They just used the orange one for transpartation. Orange is just as bad in the woods as a flare is in the middle of the night. My airsoft guns have orange tips on them and I could care less since I don't actually play airsoft.

I call things like I see them whether good or bad. As much as I hate LE I don't put any blame on them. LE are trained to use lethal force when they're faced with someone pointing a gun at them. The only thing I can see that LE could have done different is disabling the kid's shooting arm.

As I have said before, this is a case of neglect and stupidity. The neglect is on the parents and school because I don't buy for one minute either didn't know that kid didn't have emotional problems. The stupidity part is on the kid himself because a "normal functioning" teen knows right from wrong.

 

[benEzra]

I don't think a robot would have changed the outcome of this situation at all. As I read the story, the kid WASN'T IN THE BATHROOM when he was shot. He had come out to confront the police, and was shot as he aimed his gun at an officer. I don't think it's likely that the presence of a camera-bot would have necessarily changed that.

 

[NineseveN]

I cannot even seem to fathom how this thread has gone on for 5 pages arguing over this.

They don't send SWAT in and get there fast enough, Columbine happens and people cry bloody murder.

They send in SWAT, and the kid kills himself though poiting what appeared to be a firearm at a police officer, and people cry?

Had that been me looking at the kid holding what appeared to be a firearm, he'd be DRT. I'll deal with anguish over dinner.

We have people in favor of someone sending their dog after a pool guy that worked for a company the owner contratced with to clean his pool, while holding him at gun-point with a 1911 and ordering the poor fellow to go prone for just being in the yard without knocking...and now we have this thread. Good grief.

 

[Tequila_Sauer]

Suicide by cop is one of the most selfish things you could possibly do, IMO.

Rather than trying to confront your personal demons, you choose the easy way, break the hearts of everyone who ever made the mistake of loving you, and choose to bring the burden of taking your life to someone else so they have to live with killing you for the rest of their lives.

I know it sounds harsh and I know it's one of the many possible burdens of a police officer, but somebody has to live with this now.

As far as the justification, I would take no chances with my own life. If someone else would do something differently in the same situation, fine. I want to go home tonight.

 

[WillBrayJr]

Suicide by cop is one of the most selfish things you could possibly do, IMO.

Rather than trying to confront your personal demons, you choose the easy way, break the hearts of everyone who ever made the mistake of loving you, and choose to bring the burden of taking your life to someone else so they have to live with killing you for the rest of their lives.

I know it sounds harsh and I know it's one of the many possible burdens of a police officer, but somebody has to live with this now.

As far as the justification, I would take no chances with my own life. If someone else would do something differently in the same situation, fine. I want to go home tonight.

You don't have the slightest idea of what goes on inside a kid that has been abused. I'll say it again, his demons got the best of him. I don't fault what the officer did.

 

[Tequila_Sauer]

Ok, he has demons.

I'll repeat, any person who suicides by cop is selfish. A man now has that on his head for the rest of his life. He may justify it in his head that he made the right decision. I believe he made the right decision. People will tell him he made the right decision. But I wouldn't be surprised if it's a moment he's going to think about for the rest of his life.

Demons or lack thereof aside, it's a selfish act to force a man into a situation where he must take your life.

 

[Turtle Club]

First of all, 8th grade plus 6 year old start means median age of 8th graders is 14, so depending on his birthday and his start age, being 15 is not off the curve and does not place him as being "behind" Also in many southern states, boys are held behind a year to start school intentionally, because when they get to high school it gives them a leg up in athletics. This is how you get 20 year old seniors and 21 year old College football players.

I dont think being a 20 year old seinor would be so bad. Just think of all those knowledge the seinor would have over the 17-18 year olds seinors in the was of the women,

Hell if I knew at 18 what I knew at so Id would have...wel

Shoot if I knew at 20 what I knew at 24 thats even better.

 

[Web]

Here's one thing I'm not clear about. Did the officer he pointed his gun at shoot him, or did a SWAT sniper shoot him? Because I remember hearing something about a sniper taking him out.

 

[TexasRifleman]

Here's one thing I'm not clear about. Did the officer he pointed his gun at shoot him, or did a SWAT sniper shoot him? Because I remember hearing something about a sniper taking him out.

From the story it sounds like it was pretty close range, like the kid was coming around a corner in this bathroom the same time as an officer.

 

[CAPTAIN MIKE]

The Boy's Dad Was Prevented from Coming Inside

Sadly, the boy's father was just outside, having come to the school to help defuse the situation. However, he was prevented from entering the scene to talk to his son.

If the boy was physically isolated in a restroom and 'contained', it seems reasonable that bringing his Dad in to possibly help might well have been a good idea. As I understand it, it's common in hostage type situations to have relatives or friends talk to a perpetrator if there is a reasonable chance of it helping defuse the situation.

I'm sure any of us here who are parents would have wanted to be included in the opportunity to solve the problem if we could have saved our son's life. I'm not sure why the boy's father was not allowed into the school, but I'm sure he will be re-living this incident night after night while trying to sleep, as will the officer involved.

 

[joab]

What I understand from a family member of the kid.
The father was actually on a cell phone trying to tell the police that the gun was fake.
He got there as events were coming to a close.

This is not first hand from the aunt but from someone in my family who has spoken to her, so take it for what it's worth until substantiated

 

[Jeff White]

CAPTAIN MIKE said;

Sadly, the boy's father was just outside, having come to the school to help defuse the situation. However, he was prevented from entering the scene to talk to his son.

If the boy was physically isolated in a restroom and 'contained', it seems reasonable that bringing his Dad in to possibly help might well have been a good idea. As I understand it, it's common in hostage type situations to have relatives or friends talk to a perpetrator if there is a reasonable chance of it helping defuse the situation.

Unfortunately, this is just speculation about what might have been, if we lived in a perfect world. None of us knows the timeline of events. For instance, did the officers manning the outer perimeter know that the boy was contained in the restroom? Nobody posting in this thread knows if they did or not. They certainly wouldn't have let anyone past the outer perimeter if they thought the situation was still fluid.

It's really not all that common for family members to directly negotiate with an EDP. The negotiator doesn't know if the person who wants to talk to the EDP is going to help or hinder. The last thing he wants is to maybe bring the person who the EDP wants to hurt into range. Even if the EDP is contained to the point he couldn't present much danger to the family member, the EDP might want the family member as an audience for what he plans next.

I'm sure any of us here who are parents would have wanted to be included in the opportunity to solve the problem if we could have saved our son's life.

You are absolutely right.

I'm not sure why the boy's father was not allowed into the school

See above, there could have been any number of other reasons too.

but I'm sure he will be re-living this incident night after night while trying to sleep, as will the officer involved.

Yes, he probably will. But just like the officer, he has to understand that his son chose his fate when he walked out of that restroom and pointed his weapon at the officer. There is only one person responsible for this tragedy, and he's already paid the ultimate price.

Jeff

 

[daman4469]

Yea....I feel bad for the kid and the police officer. However....Things like this can easily be clouded up into making the COP look like the bad guy. Remember...if you feel in danger, or that others are in danger and actually are to the best of your knowledge, then you are obligated to take action. This officer did the right thing, because at that moment, to the best of his knowledge, many children were in danger. I know you all know this. I just get scurred when things like this happen, because Feinstein and all those damn liberals love these stories. That "kid" crossed the "childhood" threshhold when he picked up that gun.

 

[joab]

Eslinger said Penley was not called until after his son was shot, however. Even then, he was told only to come to the school and not informed of the shooting, he said.

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/nation/13628767.htm

So many conflicting accounts at this point