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Swiss K31 vs. Mauser in Combat

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by Golden_006, Aug 27, 2010.

?

Which would fare better in a modern combat

  1. Swiss k31

    50 vote(s)
    42.0%
  2. Mauser

    39 vote(s)
    32.8%
  3. I'd take a hunting gun before either one/they both are too old

    2 vote(s)
    1.7%
  4. I wouldn't be caught dead facing a modern army with ancient weapons

    28 vote(s)
    23.5%
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  1. Robert

    Robert Administrator Staff Member

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    Longer effective range does =/= accurate. And an accurate rifle does not mean that the shooter is capable of making those shots.
    Hate to break it to you. I do not own an AR, or any auto loading rifle at this time. But an (insert favorite auto loading rifle here) will give the shooter a better chance at putting a higher volume or sustained fire down rage. Even at ranges that render 5.56 a less than desirable choice. Aimed fire is very difficult if the air around you is filled with suppressing fire. You are correct that aimed fire is a very important part of shooting. But to assume that one can make a one shot hit at 800 yards with iron sights on a 70 year old rifle is well, silly. Can it be done? Sure. Can it be done when the other guy is turning your hill side into an impact zone? Doubtful. Both aimed and suppressive fire have their place.
     
  2. HexHead

    HexHead Member

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    A time honored strategy is using longer range weapons that can stand off and shoot at them before you are in their range. Jackson used it in New Orleans, and the Taliban are using it in Tora Bora.
     
  3. Cosmoline

    Cosmoline Member

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    Not just me:

    http://atwar.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/04/02/the-weakness-of-taliban-marksmanship/

    Don't assume that the Taliban are all crack shots from the hills. The word means "student," and most of their recruits are very young men or even children who have never lived a subsistence lifestyle in mountains, let alone hunted.
     
  4. JHK94

    JHK94 Member

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    For those of you who don't read it, one of the other main issues noted with Taliban marksmanship is the widespread lack of treatment for eye problems.
     
  5. fireside44

    fireside44 member

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    Please note that my original point was that many guys underestimate what a SKILLED rifleman can do with a "relic" like a bolt action rifle. Contrary to popular THR belief, the AR-15/M16 series of rifles are not the end all to military weaponry.

    You are assuming that I am assuming these things. I am not.

    The fact is that the ballistics of a 30-06, 8mm mauser, 7.5 swiss, 7.62x51 are inherently superior to the 5.56 for engaging targets at great range. In a place of wide open spaces, such as Afghanistan, the "superiority" of the AR is limited due to ballistics and so the advantages of the auto loader vs a bolt gun are lessened.
     
  6. cougar1717

    cougar1717 Member

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    A bolt action rifle as the primary issued firearm hasn't been tried in quite a few years. Even so, I picked choice 4 since left handed people have a hard time shooting a right handed bolt action, let alone the K-31 which is a real pain (try it sometime - nearly impossible). At least even somewhat modern battle rifles and assault rifles are more ambidextrous. Look at the M1 Garand, M14, FN49, FAL, AK, AR, etc. Faster rate of fire, quicker reload times with the use of a magazine or clip, and there's at least some reduction in recoil due to the semi-auto action.
     
  7. Wolfebyte

    Wolfebyte Member

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    :confused: but wait.. my K98 Mauser IS my hunting rifle.. :rolleyes:
     
  8. Justin

    Justin Moderator Emeritus

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    THE CHAIR IS AGAINST THE WALL
    Here's the thing. I'm not all that invested in this discussion, because the notion that I would somehow find myself on a modern battlefield with a gun that came from my safe is so preposterous that the odds of it happening are about as likely that I'll be eaten by a shark. (I live in a landlocked, arid, western state.)

    Yes, well, the methods employed by US military snipers are, I imagine, somewhat different than those employed by those they're engaging. Furthermore, the difference between a rifle like a Mauser K98 and a modern sniper rifle is about like the difference between a Model T and a Bugatti Veyron.

    You're assuming that accurate, aimed fire cannot be accomplished with a semi auto rifle. Furthermore, you're presuming that just because a cartridge has good ballistics that it is automatically more deadly at range. You're completely ignoring the platform the weapon is being launched from (old, iron-sighted, built using construction techniques that aren't as good as modern CNC machining.)

    At those distances, at best, you're engaging in harassing fire, which was probably a cool thing back in the days of pith helmets, monocles, and volley sights, but doesn't work so well nowadays, which probably explains why the people we're fighting much prefer to use IEDs to engaging in actual firefights.
     
  9. Justin

    Justin Moderator Emeritus

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    If so, then why is it the overwhelming choice for so many police, military, and competitive shooters based on Stoner's design?

    If the difference between an old iron-sighted bolt gun and a modern, self-loading rifle with an optic is truly not as big of a leap as it would appear to be, then where are the guys showing up to tactical rifle or 3gun matches who are showing up all of the misguided AR kids?
     
  10. Justin

    Justin Moderator Emeritus

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    Superior ballistics become something of a moot point if the bullet is being launched from a platform that is sub-optimal, or being employed by a shooter with sub-par skill.
     
  11. Golden_006

    Golden_006 Member

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    Justin, admittedly this thread involves philosophy and romance more than anything else but so what? I had a technical question about my k98 stock and it got answered in like 3 posts. what fun is that? Just a few points . . .

    Cal penal and NYPD used a Ruger Mini not AR at least till a couple of years ago. So not sure on the math but both of those outfits are huge and call into question the overwhelming majority claim.

    Further, you act as though the Mauser and Lee Enfield were locked away after WW2 and never seen again til Afganistan/Iraq. They've seen combat in all those intervening years and fought in wars the world over, along with m16s like in 'nam and AKs; along the way; with all modern guns in industrial countries and 3rd world.

    Also your comment about the 8mm round doesn't take into account penetration of cover even in urban areas

    That's not to say that the K98 is the better gun.
     
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2010
  12. Cosmoline

    Cosmoline Member

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    Marketing. And unquestionable superior firepower. But where suppressive fire is not needed, that advantage becomes moot.
     
  13. fireside44

    fireside44 member

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    Not at all. How did you manage to conclude that from what I wrote? Where was it implied or stated?

    Yes, I am presuming that a larger more powerful full size rifle cartridge is, with an accurate shooter, more "deadly" at range in compared to a smaller, less powerful mid range cartridge. Yes, I think that is a pretty safe presumption.

    Construction techniques that aren't as good as modern CNC machining? Are you saying a aluminum AR is superior to a Swiss K31 in terms of construction quality?

    They use IED's because they have dated weapons, less trained personnel, and virtually no air power (the real kicker). And so IED's are an efficient and demoralizing way of fighting a war that they otherwise would not have a chance at winning.

    As for harassing fire, it is harassing fire nonetheless and it has been widely reported and the military is attempting to act on it by obtaining more DM style full power rifle cartridge weapons.

    It's akin to saying the Mossberg 500 is the end all in shotgun home defense because there are more people who have them than other shotguns or that the Remington 700 is the last word in bolt rifle design. Just because it is among the most popular doesn't mean that there aren't other valid designs that have been or are being used.

    There are plenty of excellent auto loaders to choose from. The AR is just one among many.

    And as I stated at least three times in this thread already, my references were to a skilled rifleman not an untrained hack. I guess that went unnoticed.
     
  14. John Parker

    John Parker Member

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    Taliban is the plural of the Pashto talib, so saying 'Talibanis' is incorrect.

    :D
     
  15. M39SKY

    M39SKY Member

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    I'd say K-31

    K-31 can have six round in the mag and one in the chamber, easier (for me) to shoot quickly. Of course, one has to take advantage of its full power ammo by using it at long distances. Plus, it can be had in nice walnut stocks which add to the romanticism of old rifles:neener:
     

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  16. Shadow 7D

    Shadow 7D Member

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    OK, so anybody care to throw in why accuracy doesn't matter in a Kalashnikov and 7.62 soviet isn't a great distance round???

    because casualties in war, FROM RIFLE FIRE is mostly produced by engagements of less than 100m....

    And that is why we have the AK and the M-16, and yes they can reach out and touch someone, but, either a SDM or CAS, does the same job. You may dodge a bullet, but you aren't dodging a radio. Would I use a bolt on a battlefield, ??

    from a fire base inside the wire, or with my company at my back, cause when the get inside 100m, you are screwed.
     
  17. ScratchnDent

    ScratchnDent Member

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    M39SKY, that is a beautiful collection!
     
  18. Hatterasguy

    Hatterasguy Member

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    The Swiss, because they never fight anyone. They prefer just to do business with all sides and make money off them.:D
     
  19. Hatterasguy

    Hatterasguy Member

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    Who needs to shoot past 600, that's what A10's are for.

    Since WW2 army's have gotten away from K98 type rifles because the chances of landing a shot on an enemy at 600+ yards that's moving and doesn't want to be hit is so slim that its not worth the ammo to shoot at them. Its better to carry more smaller rounds to increase firepower at more realistic ranges. Its far better to scatter in a bunch of longer range weapons at the platoon level to take care of such rare shots when they present themselves. Prior to that commanders had hard ons for long rifles with 20in bayonets, heck the sights on my 1911 Swiss rifle don't even adjust closer than 300 yards. Such weapons are left over from Napoleonic tactics, which thankfully WW1 proved don't work anymore.
     
  20. jpwilly

    jpwilly Member

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    The straight pull bolt and accuracy of the K-31 may seem great at the range but there's no way that action isn't going to jam when dirt is added...Combat with a K-31? = NO THANKS. The Mauser is king of this discussion but I wouldn't take either into modern combat unless the alternative was a pistol or sharp stick.
     
  21. Vern Humphrey

    Vern Humphrey Member

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    Amen.

    As one of those saddled with the latest, newest but un-combat tested rifle of the time (the M16 in the '60s), I am a strong advocate of going with the devil you know. It's impossible to tell what flaws combat will reveal in a new weapon.

    We might also point out that straight-pull bolt actions have never done well in combat -- the Canadian Ross being a shining example of what happens to such a rifle in the muck and mess of combat.
     
  22. lencac

    lencac Member

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    Hypathetical question of combat. Has anybody been in combat who has replied to this thread? Those are the answers that have validity, all others are just garbage. Interesting how these silly threads get the most response (yeah I guess I'll bite too:rolleyes:)
    When the SHTF ........ and it will ............ soon ........... all you armchair combat soldiers may very well get put in a situation where you will either have to defend your property and family and put your money where your mouth is or are you going to stick your head back in the sand and go back to your Big Macs and porn sites?
    I gaurantty when things start to get ugly, and they will, if you got a Mauser with ammo or a K-31 with ammo and that's all you got, both will look pretty darn good to you.
    So here's my question instead of this hypathetical nonsense. When you wake up one morning and find out the dollar has crashed and is worth nothing due to the coming hyperinflation. And any cash or stocks or anything you have that is tied to the dollar is worthless and the groccery store shelves are no longer being stocked, what is your plan of action? Think about it :scrutiny:
     
  23. Vern Humphrey

    Vern Humphrey Member

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    Yes. My first tour in Viet Nam, I was an adviser to ARVN infantry and my issue weapon was an M2 carbine, which got wrapped around a tree and thereafter I carried an M1 Garand I borrowed from the ARVN, along with my Colt M357, which I used twice.

    My second tour, I was an Infantry company commander (A-1/61 IN) in Northern I Corps. My brigade was actually under the command of the 3rd Marine Division, so I can wear their patch, too.

    I have used in combat the M2 carbine, my M357 Colt, the M1 Garand, the M16A1 rifle (early version) the M1918A2 BAR, the M60 machine gun, the Browning M2 HB machinegun and the accurized (pre-M21) M14 sniper rifle. If you count air strikes, artillery and mortars I called called in, armed helicopters and Spooky gunships, I have a fair amount of experience.

    I have also had, but never fired in anger an M1 Thompson submachine gun and an M3 submachine gun, a Winchester Model 12 shotgun and of course the M1911A1 pistol (which I used to kill a humongous python.)
     
  24. FIVETWOSEVEN

    FIVETWOSEVEN Member

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    Worked for the French!
     
  25. Vern Humphrey

    Vern Humphrey Member

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    Yep. We all remember how the French crossed the channel, landed in England on June 6th, 1944 and drove the Nazis out.:p
     
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