Swords

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M1832? I have a Deepaka copy. The M1832 was what my gr-gr-grandfather carried, along with an 1858 Remington revolver, in the Civil War.
I didn't know that when I bought it at the Sportsman's Guide store, but I wasn't going to pass up a "gladius" as it was tagged, for $20!
 
The police chief in my little town had an Artillery short sword on his desk. It was broken at the hilt and he displayed the two parts between his name placket and edge of his desk.

One story was that it was his great grand pa’s and the yankees only let him keep it at surrender if they broke it.

-kBob
 
And adds techniques available to single-edged blades. This is a reason I prefer single-edged fighting blades: they're more versatile. Tom, you discuss how European knights would place a hand on the blade to guide it, without apparently considering how the spine can be used to guide a very sharp single-edged sword.

This in no way is meant to invalidate your observations about steel quality.

John

Yeah, I have no idea how the Japanese engaged in close in armored fighting. I **think** they stayed at distance and fought around the armor. This comes from a demonstration that I saw. It was not clear to me if this was entirely how they fought, but as mentioned, they targeted eye slits, palms, various straps and so forth. I do know they closed in for wrestling, which generally results in daggers being deployed and the usual Ju Jitsu fun.

"Harnisfecten" (European heavy armored fighting) was a different ballgame since the metal armor and various features stopped swords cold. It had edges and lines designed to catch swords threatening to slide up under the armor at the next to challenge the gorget.

Just for fun, here is a "historical based" fight -- "blossfecten" (unarmored fighting) in the German style. It's pretty darned good with regard to accuracy, but of course isn't real. It does give you a "visual" of how historical fighting would "look" like. It's neat because they show many of the 77 moves. You'll see "winden" techniques where the edges are in contact and one rolls the blade over for a thrust. Watch the first hit after he gives the sword -- I love that move and it works well when I could manage it.



Here's one in the Italian style. This one is neat because it shows the moves in the book and then demonstrates it live.

 
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Yeah, I have no idea how the Japanese engaged in close in armored fighting. I **think** they stayed at distance and fought around the armor. This comes from a demonstration that I saw. It was not clear to me if this was entirely how they fought, but as mentioned, they targeted eye slits, palms, various straps and so forth. I do know they closed in for wrestling, which generally results in daggers being deployed and the usual Ju Jitsu fun.

A few notes: first, battlefield injuries came primarily from other weapons, because troops attempted to avoid closing to sword distance. Analysis of bodies from several Japanese battlefields in the medieval era showed that things like arrows and (held, not thrown, of course) spears, and even rocks, killed more people than swords on the battlefield. Next, whatever is shown in demonstrations, if you have a sword or an even longer weapon, you're not going to attempt to close to wrestling distance. This is what my instructor describes as "dojo syndrome", doing something in training you would never do in real life.

If I have a longer weapon like a spear, I'm going to attempt to keep a swordsman outside his effective range, and he will attempt to close to his effective range. What's not going to happen, is that swordsman getting close to me, then dropping his sword and trying to use an even shorter ranged weapon. What could realistically happen, though, is samurai grabbing for a tanto or shoto if they ended up getting "locked up" with another samurai. In that case, that wouldn't have been a deliberate choice, it's just how the battle ended up working out. It's rather like the compact fighting knife that Sam and I are still working on. It's not meant to be a primary or even secondary weapon, it's a tertiary weapon to use if you end up finding yourself fighting with an enemy at close range. The engagement wasn't designed to end in grappling, it's just where you found yourself through weapons malfunction or other happenstance. My own current instructor found himself grappling with an enemy combatant while the instructor was wearing armor on at least one occasion.

Oddly enough, many of the old Japanese targets are viable once more, as body armor is becoming commonplace on the battlefield again. For a couple of hundred years, targeting the armpit, for example, didn't make much sense when there is the entire upper chest area to attack. Now, it might make sense again (since the upper chest area will usually have the most armor) You're probably not going to stalk an enemy on the battlefield, close to contact distance, and stab him in the armpit. You might, however end up at close range, and if you can't shoot him, that target could eventually present itself. Rare, but possible.

What we in the west tend to forget, is that swords weren't primary weapons on the Japanese battlefield. They were analogous to handguns for troops today. You wanted to stop the enemy with a ranged weapon, if unable to do that, you wanted to stop him at the longest range possible. The movies we're used to seeing of samurai swaggering around wearing their sword sets came from times of relative peace in Japan. The revolver might be one of the few symbols we associate with cowboys, but it certainly wasn't the tool he used the most.

John
 
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A few notes: first, battlefield injuries came primarily from other weapons, because troops attempted to avoid closing to sword distance. Analysis of bodies from several Japanese battlefields in the medieval era showed that things like arrows and (held, not thrown, of course) spears, and even rocks, killed more people than swords on the battlefield. Next, whatever is shown in demonstrations, if you have a sword or an even longer weapon, you're not going to attempt to close to wrestling distance. This is what my instructor describes as "dojo syndrome", doing something in training you would never do in real life.

That is certainly interesting to learn about JSA! So they do fight around the armor.

As in Japan, and Europe, the spear (or polearm) was the primary weapon. The technique used for the spear was to place the blade of the sword along the shaft of the spear, with the rear hand holding both the shaft of the spear and the hilt of the sword. Losing the spear quickly was common.

The following shows the vast differences in attitudes. It's pretty clear to me that high quality steel changes the fighting significantly. Hitting any plate with a spear or sword results in nothing; obviously, the Europeans started using pole axes and hammers to damage the armor for the purposes of restricting movement and reducing an opponent's options (in addition to any tissue trauma).

The European manuscripts teach close combat with the option for grappling in many instances. Furthermore, Liechtenauer and Fiore both demonstrate techniques for closing in, controlling the opponent's sword, and going to grappling. Most manuscripts demonstrate this against spears and other arms.


In German harnisfecten with swords, you're already in grappling range, as shown:
upload_2022-7-7_0-48-41.png
Controlling the sword via grappling
upload_2022-7-7_0-49-43.png

Cuddling in steel:
upload_2022-7-7_0-50-54.png

And it ends with a dagger
upload_2022-7-7_0-52-15.png

Explicit instructions for it
upload_2022-7-7_0-55-28.png
Link:
https://wiktenauer.com/wiki/Pseudo-Peter_von_Danzig#Long_Sword_Gloss
 
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This one talks about sword vs lance. Even states if you screw up the move, drop your sword and go in for wrestling

upload_2022-7-7_0-59-38.png

If a guy ever tries to stab you in the nuts with a spear, here's what you do :)

upload_2022-7-7_1-1-4.png
 
LOL...I couldn't resist throwing that in there. It shows there was far more to historical cultures than we think...or see portrayed in movies.
if it's something you're interested in, I would love you to start a new thread talking about some of these concepts. I would hate for valuable, interesting information to get buried.

John
 
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