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Tannerite In The News (Bad)

Discussion in 'Legal' started by damien, Jan 15, 2008.

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  1. damien

    damien Member

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    Tannerite was in the news yesterday. Someone did something very stupid and attracted a lot of attention...

    (courtesy of keepandbeararms.com)

    http://www.kare11.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=492577

    Obviously, this worries me:

    On their website, they say Tennerite is 100% legal. How can the government do anything if it is legal? Or might there be a backhanded restriction like the one the CPSC imposed against Firefox:

    http://www.fireworksfoundation.org/CPSC-Handel.aspx

    The synopsis is that the Consumer Product Safety Comission convinced a judge to enjoin Firefox from selling otherwise legal explosive precursor chemicals based on the opinion of the CPSC that the chemicals are dangerous to the consumer, rather than technically illegal.

    Should we worry? Order now? What do you think? Will BoomShot survive?

    Manufacturer site:

    http://www.tannerite.com
     
  2. ReefBlue

    ReefBlue Member

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    That is a pretty expensive thing to do for one shot.....

    Isn't it like 9 bucks per 1 lb target?


    Might have to stock up. . .
     
  3. Daemon688

    Daemon688 Member

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    Wow, that's not good at all. I was happy with the 6lb ones we were shooting and it would be a damn shame if this guy gets tannerite taken out of business.
     
  4. scout26

    scout26 Member

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    It has been my understanding that Tannerite is not quite legal in Illinois.

    From: http://www.isp.state.il.us/docs/projectileslist.pdf

     
  5. Daemon688

    Daemon688 Member

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    This was in Minnesota.
     
  6. Nugilum

    Nugilum Member

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    Does this go under the category of "Dee Dee Dee?" :rolleyes:
     
  7. damien

    damien Member

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    The way I read this, you can order it and possess it. Tannerite is not an explosive until mixed. If you mix it in Illinois, you are in violation. It would make sense to use it in Wisconsin!
     
  8. tenbase

    tenbase Member

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    What, you mean an evil 50 can't do that sort of damage all on its own??
     
  9. spiroxlii

    spiroxlii Member

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    We can talk about the evil laws and lawmakers all we want, but let's not overlook the fact that this guy did something pretty dangerous and stupid. Not only could he have hurt himself or others (pieces of metal went over a quarter mile), but by performing such an ill-planned stunt purely for kicks, he has given a load of fuel to those who would impose further restrictions upon the rest of us, who are hopefully more responsible shooters.
     
  10. damien

    damien Member

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    I don't think anyone is defending him yet. What he did was take something that in small amounts is beneficial or at least "mostly" harmless and used a large amount of it to cause a problem. This can be done with blackpowder, smokless powder, gasoline, propane, and many other common unregulated chemicals also. No one says ban gasoline when someone uses it to burn down someone else's house.

    I hope the same applies here, but since Tannerite is not as common as the above substances, I don't think Tannerite will get the same sort of pass. We shall see.
     
  11. ArmedBear

    ArmedBear Member

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    Honestly, I think this makes the 'approved' use of Tannerite sound pretty innocuous. Most such articles are a lot heavier on the fearmongering than that.
     
  12. Robert Hairless

    Robert Hairless Member

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    Easy as pie: make it illegal.

    Laws often are made in response to the behavior of stupid people who do or say stupid things. Makes sense to me.
     
  13. damien

    damien Member

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    I agree, this local paper is mostly unbiased and isn't fearmongering. Wait until the NY Times gets ahold of it. It will be called the largest explosion planned by a domestic terrorist since Oklahoma City. Hopefully they won't.

    I don't know that it is as easy as pie right now. Congress is pretty gridlocked. Which is good. I think it will simple be regulated to death. Read the CPSC example I posted.
     
  14. scout26

    scout26 Member

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    My bad, I saw damien's location as DeKalb, Il and thought it was near there that idiotboy set off his 100 lbs of Tannerite. Nice to know that idiotboy is in Minnesota. The Anti-gunners here would be going nuts about now.

    .50 cal Aircraft Shooting Down Sniper Rifle !!!! Illegal Explosives Terrorists weapons of choice

    Fear, Panic, Chaos !!!!

    :banghead::barf::banghead::barf::banghead::barf:
     
  15. Richmond

    Richmond Member

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    sorta nice

    Well, maybe nice for you - I live right downriver from Red Wing, so I am less enthusiastic about having an eejit next door. :what:

    Humor aside, it probably is better that this happened in southern MN, in a fairly rural county about 70 miles south of Minneapolis. This is an area I would descibe as pretty "middle of the road" about firearms, and is still prime hunting country for deer, small game and fowl. Hopefully, the reaction will be more what I hope for - grossly negligent use of firearms and tannnerite, rather than outrage over the tools.
     
  16. PILMAN

    PILMAN Member

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    Is tannerite legal in Florida?
     
  17. CJ

    CJ Member

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    Curious about the rifle used. Last article I was reading was about the huge fuss reporters made about at .50 caliber rifle getting themselves all worked up...when it turned out it was a black powder rifle that had been found.

    Of course, anyone buying 200 lbs. of tannerite probably has enough for a .50 anyway...
     
  18. rino451

    rino451 Member

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    I predict that the incident will lead to a felony conviction - or at least an attempt at one. Then the lefties can say that there is a record of a .50 actually used (vs. present) in the commision of a felony. Then say good-bye to your .50's.

    Just a guess though. Wait until the v-p-c get wind of the use of a .50...
     
  19. damien

    damien Member

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    Actually, I wonder now if this was illegal at all. It was a larger explosion than normal, for sure, but it sounds like he damaged a shot up target (a truck) that was his, on his own property. The actual damage off his property was some rattled windows and a nuclear plant put itself on alert. Not really any physical damage. I don't know the law in Minnesota, but this may be very stupid, but not illegal.
     
  20. hankdatank1362

    hankdatank1362 Member

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    God I hope he puts the video of it on Youtube!
     
  21. Zoogster

    Zoogster Member

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    That is even scarier. That means the guy was likely fairly close when he shot it. If it was launching shrapnel as far as they say, he was likely in the radius of the shrapnel and just got lucky.

    All things eventualy have incidents like this happen. Some individual always wants bigger and bigger. Have to out do thier last best one each time. Eventualy it gets out of hand.
    Things in a ready to go format don't weed out the people that can't do a little thinking first.
    That means the only barrier left on idiots is cost. If it is too affordable then you are sure you have trouble.

    Tannerite precursor chemicals might be legal, but making an explosive device is often illegal.
    That essentialy means making any reactive target can be interpreted as a felony offense. It is just not often enforced that way, but if it is in an enclosed container that ruptures from detonation you have created an explosive device.

    Technicaly many fireworks could be considered an explosive device as well. Whether it is a paper container or a metal container exploding, it is still an explosive device reading the law. It is just not interpreted that way by those enforcing it, but there is quantity limitations.


    In fact one of the only things given exception to the explosive laws is ammunition. Many other things that go boom are illegal explosives per statute, and without a license or for use in things like oil drilling, construction, etc can be prosecuted.

    However when enough people do something that it becomes commonplace and accepted, like use tannerite, people often stop realizing it is technicaly illegal.
    Being perfectly legal to sell as seperate chemicals does not mean it is legal to mix, put in an enclosed container, and blow it up. Many much more powerful explosives can be made from legaly sold chemicals.
    So since it is technicaly illegal, that means they could charge this guy, and anyone else regardless of the size of the explosion. Big explosion, tiny explosion, still illegal manufacture and use of an explosive without the proper license and arguably in a reckless manner.

    I hate to see everything outlawed because people go overboard, but my understanding is the use of this material is already a crime and is just not enforced.
    In fact anything intentionaly made that explodes in a container could be interpreted as an explosive or explosive device, and manufacturing it... (mixing the tannerite components with the intent of using it as an explosive reactive target is manufacturing the explosive.)

    I am sure some people will come along and say it is perfectly legal because it is legaly sold and the manufacture says it is legal, and they have seen it legaly used dozens of times at events with law enforcement officers in attendance.

    Well for a similar argument I will refer you to http://www.pyramydair.com/site/articles/silencers/
    airgun "silencers". They are illegal, yet rather common, and sold by many manufacturers. That does not mean you cannot be charged with a felony offense at any time for possessing one. Thier manufacturers will assure you they are perfectly legal, that you can use them as you wish as long as you don't use them on a firearm because a silencer is defined as "a device intended to muffle the report of a firearm", and they are not designed or intended for use on a "firearm" so not "silencers". That is true.

    Yet they can be attached or adapted for use on a firearm and by definition they could be illegal silencers per ATF regulations if law enforcement simply declare you in violation. Being charged for having an illegal unregistered and unserialized silencer, and having such a device as evidence against you would be a pretty tough case to fight. Your whole argument would be that the very device they have is not legaly what they say it is (and can function as) because you didn't intend it for use on a firearm. I don't know of anyone who has won that argument.


    If your argument was you were using Tannerite as a reactive target, that shows you intended to use it as an explosive. The law does not say you have to have any malicious intent for it to be illegal. Simply intending for it to explode makes it illegal. Making explosives to blow things up for fun, even the harmless reactive target is not to my knowldege legal.
    It was not manufactured by someone with a license if you mix the two parts together yourself and don't have a license. That is the point at which is was manufactured.

    If you were taken to court with exploded items or targets as evidence, pictures of mixed, and evidence of unmixed compounds, and charged with manufacturing explosives I honestly don't see how you would not be guilty.
    "I legaly bought it on the internet for that purpose" would be a hollow argument. Legaly purchasing chemicals no matter how they are advertised does not excuse committing illegal actions by you at a later date even if simply using them as advertised.
    You can purchase everything necessary to do many many illegal things. Parts to convert firearms to full auto are sold for that purpose in magazines. Doing so (or even possessing the parts to do so and having such a firearm) is illegal. Would you argue you legaly purchased it?

    Being able to legaly purchase the parts or components to create something does not mean you can legaly create it. If tannerite was legal to mix and put into a container before causing it to explode, then a pipe bomb would be legal as well. If a pipe bomb is legal then making grenades is legal, yet they are not and get the feds involved rather quickly.
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2008
  22. damien

    damien Member

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    You did a lot of talking up there but no linking. What is the statute on this? Does this mean blasting on your own rural property is technically illegal also?

    This is done openly, at Boomshot. Would the feds really give them a pass at doing it as openly as that?
     
  23. Zoogster

    Zoogster Member

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    I don't claim to have researched all the laws regarding blasting. There is numerous laws and doing so would be a big undertaking. For example here is a code from the Occupational Safety & Health Administration (http://www.osha.gov/)
    GENERAL PROVISIONS - §1926.900
    ...Smoking, firearms, matches, open flame lamps, and other fires, flame or heat producing devices and sparks shall be prohibited in or near explosive magazines or while explosives are being handled, transported or used.

    So if done by people that need to comply with such regulations it would appear having and using firearms around explosives is not legal.
    Is your rural property a farm? Are people earning a living on that property as part of thier employment?

    There is some federal and numerous state level restrictions on depending on location for blasting.

    As for BATF regulations?
    http://www.atf.gov/explarson/07explist-fedregister.pdf
    Tannerite is listed as an explosive on that list. It would be included in the "ammonium nitrate explosive mixture"/"ammonium perchlorate explosive mixture" in that list.

    Is private use of explosives without a license legal in your area? What makes a pipe bomb illegal and not tannerite? Black powder is on that list, and putting black powder in a container and causing it to explode for recreation is generaly illegal, but doing the same with an ammonium nitrate/perchlorate based mixture of tannerite is legal? Huh?
    Researching the ATF regulations is a real pain, most of them have to do with commercial purposes, transporting, selling etc
    Few hard and fast rules on what is legal as a private individual with no licenses, you have to read through a lot of info.

    Here is some notices:http://www.atf.gov/explarson/notices/notice_968.pdf
    on 4416 you will see that consumer fireworks are listed as 50mg or less of explosives for ground use or 130mg or less for aerial use. More than that is classified differently. But again that is for legal sales to the public, transport, and other purposes in commerce.


    I am not a lawyer, but ammonium perchlorate and ammonium nitrate mixtures can be very powerful, in fact with a couple additions little different than the explosives used in the Oklahoma City incident, most of which were ammonium nitrate based.
    A large number of commercial explosives are predominantly ammonium nitrate.

    So making an impact sensative mixture and putting it in a container with the intent of causing it to explode is legal, but doing the same with lower explosive velocity black powder is often punished as a crime?
    That does not pass the legal scrutiny test and seems to be allowed on a discretionary basis, ie illegal at will.

    I could spend hours researching it and finding statutes to support my opinion (which is all most laws are, interpreted opinions which are validated or invalidated through higher court rulings/opinions) but it would be a lot of work and I have no problem with you thinking it is legal, I however feel it is too big of a grey area, and can be interpreted as illegal, and is definately illegal at the state level some places.

    There might also be a big grey area between what you can legaly do for agricultural and construction purposes, and what you can do for recreational purposes. Blowing up a rock or stump to clear it might be legal (requiring more or less permits depending on location), but blowing up a bottle of explosive by shooting it for recreation is different.
    If you can legaly detonate large quantities of explosives with bullets for recreation why not with fuses, electronics etc?
    If you can is it subject to size limitations under the regulations regarding consumer fireworks (50mg)? Or is it different for private use?

    It is a big grey area that spells trouble to me, leaving the discretion of felony prosecution to LEOs.
    It is also illegal in my state at the state level. So not worth the time and effort at the moment to pursue it further.

    Do as you want, many people obviously use it without being prosecuted.
     
  24. Matt304

    Matt304 Member

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    Zoogster,

    Ok, those messages didn't say a whole lot about specifics.

    I can recall reading the ATF regulations at the ATF site just a few months ago. Now they have removed the webpage referring to these specific blasting laws. Go figure. The page was here: http://www.atf.gov/explarson/fedexplolaw/index.htm

    Anyways, Federal law stated that no, there is not a license or permit required for rural personal use or manufacture of explosives. The time when a permit became required is either when A) you are transporting those on public roadways or B) you are manufacturing the explosives for commercial use or sale C) performing commercial blast work or D) storing them mixed for later use. But it's the same reason you can make 20lb ammonium perchlorate composite rocket motors as a hobby on your own land if you do not transport and you get a waiver to fly it. Once you transport then you need the permit and certified magazine.

    In IL where I live, we would need two types of blasting permits if I recall to even farm blast. One was a $75 test, the other is an actual permit for storage and was around $200. To make rocket motors over 62.5g propellant weight of composite propellant is considered a low-explosive production, so you would need an LEUP here in IL for storage. (More garbage, ammonium perchlorate propellant is less dangerous than a box of wood strike matches, but that's another issue.) Each state is different in how they regulate explosives. But at the federal level, it was made clear by the document that farmers could indeed blast a boulder with a sack of ANFO if they pleased and their state had no addition requirements. Of course then you get into blast vibration requirements and air blast requirements etc. That would have probably put this man at fault for a misuse at 200lbs or whatever he did.

    I find it bogus that a nuclear powerplant went into hazard mode or whatever. A 200lb blast pressure at 400 yards is probably similar to a good lightning strike at 100ft in sound pressure. So what the heck does the nuclear plant do when it storms outside?

    This will be an interesting case to follow to say the least, but they will nab him on something I'll bet.
     
  25. Wes Janson

    Wes Janson Member

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    Ignoring the facts of this particular case, is there any particular reason why the recreational useage of explosives on isolated, private property should be illegal?
     
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