Quantcast
  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Taper Crimp Not Even Needed?

Discussion in 'Handloading and Reloading' started by vtail, Feb 12, 2013.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. vtail

    vtail Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2009
    Messages:
    339
    I've started loading some 40S&W and I'm concerned I was over taper crimping.

    So tonight, using a set of three Redding dies on a LNL, I seated a Montana Gold 180JHP to 1.125, and then started backing out the taper crimp until it would no longer pass the Plunk test into my barrel.

    To my surprise, I was able to entirely remove the taper crimp die and still pass the test. The seating die must be doing some crimping, but is it enough?

    It looks like all of the bell is removed, except for maybe a tiny bit at the end, but at this point, does it matter?

    For the record, I put the bullet against the bench and pushed on the back of the case as hard as I could and didn't budge the bullet.

    Should I even bother with the taper crimp die??
     
  2. mgmorden

    mgmorden Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2009
    Messages:
    4,570
    Location:
    Charleston, South Carolina
    Virtually all seating dies have a "crimping" function built in. I started on Lee 4-die sets for handgun and always crimped as an extra step using the FCD, but the longer I've loaded I've become more and more of the opinion that a separate crimp step is completely unnecessary (and a time waster since I'm a single-stage loader).

    When you put in your seater, take a freshly sized case that hasn't been expanded. Raise it in the ram. Screw down the seater die until it contacts that case. Thats the point where the bell is removed. Asjust the seater plug as needed to get your desired seating depth but other than that you're good to go.
     
  3. rcmodel

    rcmodel Member in memoriam

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2007
    Messages:
    59,082
    Location:
    Eastern KS
    Yes.

    The taper crimp die IS the seating die.

    Adjust it to seat to the proper OAL, remove the case mouth bell, and Fuggedaboutit.

    The Taper-Crimp does not hold the bullet in place, and the more you make it crimp, the looser the case neck tension gets.

    It makes the case like a factory load again so it feeds right.
    Thats all it does.

    But you DO need to use it.

    rc
     
  4. Drail

    Drail Member

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2008
    Messages:
    5,378
    If you have sufficient case neck tension (which you do if you cannot press the bullet in by hand) then you do not really need hardly any crimp. Just flare as little as possible and remove any flare that will not allow the round to fall in and out of a chamber or gauge.
     
  5. Waywatcher

    Waywatcher Member

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2006
    Messages:
    1,563
    Location:
    WI
    For my .40 reloads I taper crimp 0.001" and no more. They work perfectly!
     
  6. Bovice

    Bovice Member

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2009
    Messages:
    1,593
    That tiny little bit that is still belled DOES matter. Get rid of that or you'll have rounds that don't quite feed. That little edge will snag.
     
  7. vtail

    vtail Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2009
    Messages:
    339
    Wait, what?

    I'm not understanding this statement:

    "The taper crimp die IS the seating die."

    Do you mean I should attempt to adjust the seating die to remove ALL of the remaining bell, (which is almost nonexistant), and not even use the separate taper crimp die at all?
     
  8. Waywatcher

    Waywatcher Member

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2006
    Messages:
    1,563
    Location:
    WI
    The taper crimp die has the seater plug already in it. The bell should be removed and verified to have been removed with a caliper.
     
  9. vtail

    vtail Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2009
    Messages:
    339
    My taper crimp die is hollow.

    My seater die has the seater plug in it. Whether it is capable of removing all of the remaining bell is yet to be seen.

    If not, I suppose I will have to use the taper crimp die as well. I know it can, as it was doing it before. I was just worried perhaps I was over doing it.

    This is really all academic as I have an open station on my LNL, so it's really no big deal to use the taper crimp die, I was just wondering if I really needed to use it at all.
     
  10. bds

    bds Member

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2010
    Messages:
    13,692
    Location:
    Northwest Coast
    Better QC check for neck tension is measuring the OALs before/after feeding the finished rounds from the magazine with the slide locked back then releasing the slide.

    If you have significant reduction in OAL, then you have neck tension issue.

    I used to do the same then saw reduction in OAL when they were fed from the magazine, which better duplicates the actual feeding/chambering action/pressure.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2013
  11. 1SOW

    1SOW Member

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2007
    Messages:
    4,106
    Location:
    South Texas
    You do need to remove the bell to have reliable feed.
     
  12. vtail

    vtail Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2009
    Messages:
    339
    Will do. That's a good idea.

    Thanks for the tip.
     
  13. vtail

    vtail Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2009
    Messages:
    339
    To totally remove the last little bit of bell, I had to screw the taper crimp almost all of the way down to the shell plate. Scared I may be overdoing it.

    May still be able to remove it with the seater die only. Will try it tomorrow.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2013
  14. Lost Sheep

    Lost Sheep Member

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2009
    Messages:
    2,661
    Location:
    Alaska
    Is everybody talking about jacketed brass (which tends to be just the size of the barrel, as opposed to lead which tends to be a little larger)?

    Lead bullets need a little bit more flare than jacketed or plated bullets in order to fit the bullet base into the case mouth. So, there is a little more flare to remove.

    If you have bullets with beveled bases and put them on the case mouth perfectly square, I can see where you might not have to remove the flare or might not even need any flare at all TO remove.

    In that case, you can probably get by without "taper crimping" your cases.

    No surprise at all.

    Lost Sheep
     
  15. GLOOB

    GLOOB Member

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2007
    Messages:
    5,941
    Sometimes it's true you don't need a crimp. Depends on your bullet, chamber, and flare. But it's still best to set the crimp ring on your seating die to where it at least touches the case mouth. This is so that the oddball long case that got more flare will get crimped, if not the rest of the batch.
     
  16. cfullgraf

    cfullgraf Member

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2010
    Messages:
    7,139
    Location:
    East TN
    Seating dies have a crimp ring built in. It is standard. I do not know of a seat die, particularly for handgun cartridges, that does not have a crimp ring machined into it.

    To set the seater die to seat and crimp, back the seater stem out and adjust the die body down to get the desired crimp on a case with the bullet seated. Then, adjust the seater stem to get the over all cartridge length.

    If you move the die body without moving the seater stem independently, your cartridge overall length will change. You can move only the seater stem and the crimp will not change while the cartridge overall length will.

    Some folks prefer to crimp in a separate step from seating so they have a crimp die. In this case, back the seater die body back so that the internal crimp ring does not touch the case. Adjust the seater stem to the desired overall length.

    Then, adjust the crimp die body to obtain the desired crimp.

    For semi-automatic hand guns, you should remove the mouth belling from the case for reliable feeding. As said, with jacketed bullets, it is quite possible to expand the mouth just enough so that crimping is not necessary.

    This is not possible with lead bullets. The lead bullets are soft and the case mouth will shave lead during seating if the mouth is not expanded enough.

    Everybody seems to be saying the same thing, but not very clearly.

    Hope this helps.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2013
  17. Dodge DeBoulet

    Dodge DeBoulet Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2009
    Messages:
    106
    Adding just a little bit more clarity :D
     
  18. cfullgraf

    cfullgraf Member

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2010
    Messages:
    7,139
    Location:
    East TN
    Right, thanks
     
  19. jlear56

    jlear56 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2012
    Messages:
    3
    Not trying to confuse the issue here but, I don't think my Dillon seating die crimps, If i do not run the seated round through the tapered crimp die, there is no way it will pass a chamber check!

    As a matter of fact the Redding Comp Seating die does not remove the crimp either. :confused:
     
  20. James2

    James2 Member

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2009
    Messages:
    878
    Location:
    Northern Utah
    ^^^ This.

    You can adjust the seating die to also give you the necessary crimp, and seat and crimp in one step with one die.

    You can also set the seating die so that it does not crimp and crimp in another step with a crimp die. I have heard arguments for both methods, but for me it works just fine to crimp and seat in one operation with the seat die. Your mileage may vary, but whichever method you use, it is important to adjust the dies properly. If you are going to use both dies, make sure the seat die is not crimping so the crimp will be done in the crimp die.

    If you take the seating stem out of the seat die and look into it you will be able to see the crimp ring. When adjusting the die, put a casing in the shell holder (no bullet) and run it up full stroke, then turn the die in until you feel some resistance. This is where the brass hits the crimp ring. Now if you don't want to crimp, back it off half a turn. If you do want to crimp, with a charged casing add a bullet and adjust the COAL, back off your seating stem while playing with the crimp, then play with the crimp. You get more crimp by turning the die in further. Once your crimp is right, with the ram full up turn the seating stem in to hit the bullet. Now you can seat and crimp in one operation.
     
  21. cfullgraf

    cfullgraf Member

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2010
    Messages:
    7,139
    Location:
    East TN
    Yes, I think the seater dies on my Dillon SDB pesses do not crimp. The SDB dies are a special case and only usable on the SDB press.

    I am not sure about Dillon's 7/8-14 dies.
     
  22. beatledog7

    beatledog7 Member

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2011
    Messages:
    5,093
    Location:
    Tidewater
    Sometimes you can achieve flattening of the flare by simply seating the bullet.

    If you flared a case's opening to an interior diameter of .354 to seat a bullet with a bearing surface diameter of .355 and a rounded base (that rounding makes it possible), simply seating that bullet expands the interior case mouth diameter to .355, meaning the original flare to .354 is gone (it's now .355) before that case can reach the crimping ring. Crimping that case now is at best redundant and at worst liable to weaken neck tension.

    Maybe you didn't even need to flare those cases at all.
     
  23. jlear56

    jlear56 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2012
    Messages:
    3
    Again I am not trying to doubt what is being stated about seating and crimping in one step. I think it depends on the seating die that you are using.

    Dillon seating dies for for straight wall cases do not crimp, there is no separate adjustment for the body and seating stem, the seating depth is set by screwing the die body down until the desired OAL is obtained. The seating stem is fixed within the die body.

    Below is the description from Redding about the separate seating and crimping operation



    COMPETITION BULLET SEATING DIE FOR HANDGUN & STRAIGHT WALL RIFLE CARTRIDGES
    The Most Advanced Bullet
    Alignment Available

    Since the introduction of our competition seating die for rifle calibers,we have been asked to provide the same features in a precision bullet seater for straight wall cartridges. Because of our strict design criteria it was only natural that this die would become part of our Competition Series.

    Advanced Bullet Alignment

    Our design criteria called for positive alignment between the bullet and cartridge case prior to bullet seating.

    We developed a very unique way to intentionally bias the bullet into alignment. Here is how it works:

    The precision fitting seating stem is allowed to move well down into the chamber of the die to accomplish early bullet contact. The spring loading of the seating stem provides the positive alignment bias between its tapered nose and the bullet ogive. This spring loading and bullet alignment are maintained as the bullet and cartridge case move upward until the actual seating of the bullet begins.

    This new Advanced Bullet Alignment feature assures you of the straightest possible bullet alignment for handgun & straight wall rifle cartridges.

    Micrometer Adjustment

    The micrometer adjustment simplifies setting and recording bullet seating depth. By recording the micrometer setting of your favorite reloads you can return to that same overall length by simply “dialing it in”. Switching bullets and experimentation has never been easier. The micrometer is calibrated in .001” increments, is infinitely adjustable and has a “zero” set feature that allows you to set your favorite load to zero if desired.

    Separate Crimp

    Competition shooters are reloaders who know that superior reloads are produced when bullet crimping is performed as a separate operation from bullet seating. This is a no compromise die with no crimping capability provided. A superior crimp will be accomplished by using our “Profile Crimp” or “Taper Crimp” die.

    I don't mean to sound confrontational at all just trying to add a different perspective. :)
     
  24. Otto

    Otto Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2007
    Messages:
    1,393
    Location:
    Lone Star State
    No, not necessarily. Hornady 40S&W seating dies incorporate a Roll crimp.
    Taper crimp dies are sold separately.
     
  25. cfullgraf

    cfullgraf Member

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2010
    Messages:
    7,139
    Location:
    East TN
    Agreed, but seating dies that do not crimp are a minority. Thanks for the additional information.

    In any case, I crimp handgun cartridges in a separate step any way so I could not tell you if any of my seater dies have crimp rings in them. :)
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page