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Taser/Lethal force question

Discussion in 'Legal' started by Boulder, Jun 7, 2009.

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  1. Boulder

    Boulder Member

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    Recently in my neck of the woods, a person was shot by police (in the lower abdomen) for grabbing an officer's taser and pointing it at them.

    Two questions I would like to get everyone's opinion:

    1) Was the police justified in using deadly force (the person shot didn't die)?

    2) As a CCW holder--would I be justified in using deadly force when confronted with a perp with a taser?

    My primary concern would be losing control of my firearms if I were tasered--but, would I be justified in escalating to lethal force when presented with a "non-lethal" weapon?
     
  2. Hungry Seagull

    Hungry Seagull member

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    For the record, wife and I own a C2 Model Taser from www.taser.com

    Very simply put.

    Point Taser at a LEO = YOU will be killed. As fast as possible, without second thought and asap. In fact, to even try to point one at a LEO will cause that person to jerk into a reflex draw to kill YOU with his handgun before that LEO really understands what is happening.

    They fry each other all the time with tasers for fun. But out in public? No one fries a LEO.

    Let me put it another way, would I want to pull a TASER on a possible CCW'er armed with a GUN? If I was to play the role of a perp?

    Suppose I pull taser on a aggressor and he pulls out gun?

    No. Taser stays with wife in the safe room. The taser does ride in our car from time to time and we have not yet had any... issues with it.

    If Im carrying concealed and aggressor pulls out taser on me? Im already late to the draw and need to get the gun out and into action as fast as possible while taking my time. (Does that make sense?)

    The best ending I can hope for is that the perp with taser sees my HANDGUN and squeal like little girl and flee. stopping the threat without any shoot.

    It is a crime to deploy or point taser with intent to use against someone who does not have any intent to harm, hurt, assault or do anything to you.

    I think there was one case in Florida where a Husband was going through a divorce and was physically assaulted by soon to be EX wife. He had a taser on him and fried her. He was not charged because he sustained injuries in attack during the DOMESTIC and stopped the assault without hitting back physically. He fled the property and contacted LEO's

    The only other thought is that tasers are generally PAPERWEIGHTS when sold in a store until you contact the factory by phone with a credit card and succeed in THIER criminal background check before you recieve the activation code. And that code is good for that INDIVIDUAL TASER. NO others.
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2009
  3. docfubar

    docfubar Member

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    You point a taser at a cop and he might figure he is gonna disable me and then kill me with my gun or disable me and then take my gun. I would shoot you to.
     
  4. kingpin008

    kingpin008 Member

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    Yeah, I'd think the cop was completely justified - at least I wouldn't convict him. If the suspect managed a hit on the cop with the taser, that would mean that the suspect now has a good chance at the officer's pistol, as Docfubar mentioned. Not worth risking - the suspect needs a little lead thrown his way.
     
  5. mgkdrgn

    mgkdrgn Member

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    A taser is not a "non-lethal" weapon, it's a less-lethal one. PLENTY of people have died as a direct result of being tasered.

    I also think it would be fair to assume that the BG de-jour isn't going to taser you for your own good.
     
  6. Dokkalfar

    Dokkalfar Member

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    Well as mgkdrgn just said, a taser is not a non-lethal weapon, just less lethal. and it is ranged, which means the BGs effective area is alot larger than with a knife or club. here in TX, if he pulled a taser on you you'd be perfectly justified in self-defense. I personally dont know CO's laws as regarding SD, or if Boulder has anything on it.

    So I would check your local laws on this, as they vary widely from state to state.

    With the police scenario, what I see there is assault on the cop. I dont see how he could argue good intentions, so I would say yea, the police were justified in that.
    Unless, of course, the guy was just a nice citizen, who picked up the taser the cop dropped, was trying to hand it back to him, and then accidentally tripped and almost shot the cop with it. Cause why would anyone do that on purpose?
     
  7. Hungry Seagull

    Hungry Seagull member

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    I aint touching :cuss: that belongs to a LEO. They have plenty of back up.

    Heck, it's HIS or HER TASER... not ours. They can pick it up if they went oops and dropped it.

    In our area, try to fry a LEO and they will fire on you and face no repercussions or charges.

    I concede that tasers can be lethal and that is why they are treated as such.

    You should see the ball of blue fire emitted by the unit during a montly spark test. And yes reload batteries and cartridges are availible. We have the unit in the stun gun mode against stray dog packs when outside working the land. (In addition to the handgun)

    As a stun gun, the taser is the most dangerous I have encountered and we used to have some good cracklers in our time long ago.
     
  8. MGD 45

    MGD 45 Member

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    This is the reason why we are required to take a hit with a Taser before we can carry it. Mainly for two reasons:

    1) So we will know what it feels like, and won't abuse it......but more importantly...

    2) We will understand how the Taser affects us, so then we quickly learn that a Taser will incapacitate us & our gun can be taken away & used against us.

    So enlight of this........point a Taser at me, & I'm justified to use deadly force against you.


    PS: The same applies to Pepper Spray......
     
  9. TexasRifleman

    TexasRifleman Moderator Emeritus

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    As to the OP's question my opinion would be yes, you would be justified in using deadly force in my state. That's the thing though, it's going to be a state by state issue depending on the self defense laws.

    Texas law:

    I would argue that a "reasonable person" would believe those crimes listed were imminent if a taser was employed by a bad guy. First you will be tasered, then a victim of : aggravated kidnapping, murder, sexual assault, aggravated sexual assault, robbery, or aggravated robbery.

    Why else would a criminal tase someone if not to commit one of those crimes? I would think a reasonable person would believe those crimes imminent after a tasing.
     
  10. Hungry Seagull

    Hungry Seagull member

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    If I Pepper Spray a LEO in Arkansas it's a Misdemeanor. But I will be treated very badly because it's a no no.

    If Im confronted with a perp who has taser and is advancing I must draw. Firing? That depends on Perp's actions because in addition to drawing I will be attempting to stay out of 15 feet range of the thing. That is one reason I like to shoot at 7 and 10 yard human police targets center mass. I know I can hit anything closer. But the further out ones are harder to do.

    If bad guy is smart he will stop and go away. If not? I guess you all will be reading about us in the news the following morning.

    I dont mind a taser hit, but knowing one specific medical condition in the heart I must consider it lethal threat and can back my position in court. The perp with the taser may not know about it.


    Upon further reflection, I find it very rare that a crime is committed with a taser, perhaps further digging will be needed.
     
  11. wyocarp

    wyocarp Member

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    My answer is "yes" to both.
     
  12. TAB

    TAB Member

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    1 yes
    2 depends on state law, in CA it would be yes.
     
  13. SHvar

    SHvar Member

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    If you point a non-lethal weapon made and proven to completely disable a human, at a policeman, you are escalating the level of force required to contain the situation to deadly force, there wouldnt be a court in the country to say otherwise. The policies of every law enforcement agency in the country agree with this. These policies are written by high priced lawyers who discuss these policies in court and approve them with judges.
    Any attempt to use a weapon, non-lethal or lethal on a LEO on duty automatically fall under the policy that says you are "attempting to cause physical injury that might reasonably lead to anothers death", self defence shooting on their part.
    The act alone of taking a taser or pepper sray from a LEO who is carrying a firearm, is justification for them to use deadly force on you.
    No opinion about it, its a common policy taught to all LEOs, that policy has been upheld in court thousands of times.
     
  14. taprackbang

    taprackbang member

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    That is kind of a disturbing thought. The fact that LEOs appear to be 'above the law' these days, you cannot fight back against a rogue cop. These types do exist, contrary to what you hear.
    Police are not infallible...
    But I would never advise taking anything off of a LEO's person. That would even ring true of a civilian.
     
  15. usmarine0352_2005

    usmarine0352_2005 Member

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    First part is partially correct.


    Yes, if you take an officers Taser at them, most are justified by their policy to shoot you.

    Some people who have died after being Tasered. None have actually died from the Tasering itself.

    Taser has been sued roughly 80 times and never lost one wrongful death lawsuit. People who have died after being Tasered have been found to have excited delirium, high on drugs or pre-existing medical conditions.

    .
     
  16. usmarine0352_2005

    usmarine0352_2005 Member

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    What???????



    You attempt to kill a police officer, he defends himself and kills you instead and he's the one who's "above the law"?


    I'd think that most people on this site believe in self defense, no matter who you are.


    This post disturbs me.

    .
     
  17. Riss

    Riss Member

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    Not sure if tap rack read the other post clearly. IF someone is going to attack a police officer, and INCAPACITATE him there is no reason to believe that he would not also take the officers gun and kill him. A police officer shooting someone coming at him with a taser is absolutely justified. And I would have no problem doing it myself.
     
  18. SHvar

    SHvar Member

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    Yes, there has never been a case against the use of a taser where the operator lost. There have been very few deaths after the use of a taser, the instances were as mentioned from those on seriously dangerous levels of illegal drugs, etc.
    A taser or stun gun effect the neuro-muscular system in that immediate area, they do not effect the heart or even a pacemaker.
    You are in far more not using am AED (advanced emergency defibulator), or having one used on you, than by being stunned by a taser. AEDs can seriously burn body parts with metal piercings, Ive heard of those with nipple piercings no longer having something to pierce afterwards.
    Attempting to use a weapon, lethal, less than lethal, non-lethal, incapacitating, etc makes you a threat to the LEOs life, it is reasonably believed that you may inflict death or serious bodily harm to them in the process or afterwards, why else would you try it?
    Even if you dont, you face a much longer sentence in prison for threatening that officers life.
     
  19. mgkdrgn

    mgkdrgn Member

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    So, it was just "their time"? If they hadn't been taserd they would have spontaneously dropped dead anyway?

    Unlawful death lawsuits were not my concern. My concern is the nearly universal thought that a taser is a "non-letal" weapon and the use of it can not result in a death. That is simply not true.
     
  20. Hungry Seagull

    Hungry Seagull member

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    I believe that sometimes when in time of great stress or action, the human body fails as a machine to support the life of the actor. Whatever outside force or power is imposed upon that actor's body is going to determine the outcome.

    Death isnt a expected outcome, but it IS a possible outcome.

    I have seen strong men do great things in time of crisis only to drop dead shortly after because they never knew of a heart problem, brain bleed or some thing that is only discovered post-autotopsy.

    But to stand there and let a person taser you without doing anything about it while carrying a handgun or weapon, most certianly it MIGHT really, really result in death, injury etc. TO YOU.

    Only gamblers roll the dice. The rest call thier shots as they see it.

    The one weakness of the C2 taser model is once you shoot your probes, that's it. You have either stun mode or dump, reload fresh probe cartidge into the taser. I think the X26 has a 4 shot magazine and those carried by LEO's offer features more useful for close tatical arrest situations such as shorter frying time etc.

    Hospital Defibs and other devices that impose a strong shock onto a person are those used by doctors for specific purposes. You might get hit... twice or three times. Usually that's it.

    There is one thing that really angers me as a person. I once read a book about how concentration camp victims were hung against a wet concrete wall that is constantly kept wet. Electric current is introduced into the victims swinging against that concrete wall.

    There was a picture showing hand prints impressed into the concrete itself, by the hundreds or thousands who have swung and fried against it trying to push away but only making better contact with thier hands.

    Electric power can be used for good or bad. Which way are you gonna use it?
     
  21. DeepSouth

    DeepSouth Member

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    If I have a gun and an attacker has a taser, then as far as I'm concerned he has a gun. If he tases me, he will have my gun.

    So for me Taser = Gun.

    I don't know the legality of the matter, and in that situation, I wouldn't care, time to preserve my life, then repeat "I need a lawyer present" after every question asked.
     
  22. docfubar

    docfubar Member

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    A lot of people say tasers are a non lethal form, they are a LESS Lethal. LESS. It still has lethal in the name, it is just saying that they are LESS deadlier than say a gun. Less lethal still means there is a chance of you dying.
    OC is less lethal. The documented cases of death are not as high as a taser but I bet there are some.
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2009
  23. Deus Machina

    Deus Machina Member

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    You're entitled to use deadly force if you are victim of an attempt to kill you or cause severe bodily harm. I consider debilitating convulsions severe harm, don't you? Not to mention the taser-er could do anything they want to you in the next few minutes.

    As for the OC spray, yes, there are a few cases. Asthma, allergic reactions, or simple over-inflammation, that the user had no way of knowing about before.
     
  24. usmarine0352_2005

    usmarine0352_2005 Member

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    Tasers are not non-lethal. There less then lethal.

    When it comes to other less-then-lethal tools have actually killed others. People have taken shotgun beanbag rounds to the head or at close range and died (which is why your not supposed to aim for the head or to close in proximity), people have been killed by baton strikes.



    Remember what I said about the people who have died after being tased?

    People who have died after being Tasered have been found to have excited delirium, high on drugs or pre-existing medical conditions.



    HCMC in Minneapolis, MN has one of the highest rates of survival if you get taken there in an emergency.

    They had 12 cases of Excited Delirium last year. (No Taser used). Each person was taken to the hospital alive. Each one died.

    It was basically taught to us that if you find someone who has excited delirium that within 24 hours of the onset of it they will die.

    .
     
  25. usmarine0352_2005

    usmarine0352_2005 Member

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    Tasers are not non-lethal. There less then lethal.

    When it comes to other less-then-lethal tools have actually killed others. People have taken shotgun beanbag rounds to the head or at close range and died (which is why your not supposed to aim for the head or to close in proximity), people have been killed by baton strikes.



    Remember what I said about the people who have died after being tased?

    People who have died after being Tasered have been found to have excited delirium, high on drugs or pre-existing medical conditions.



    HCMC in Minneapolis, MN has one of the highest rates of survival if you get taken there in an emergency.

    They had 12 cases of Excited Delirium last year. (No Taser used). Each person was taken to the hospital alive. Each one died.

    It was basically taught to us that if you find someone who has excited delirium that within 24 hours of the onset of it they will die.

    .
     
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