Quantcast

Taser/Lethal force question

Discussion in 'Legal' started by Boulder, Jun 7, 2009.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. SHvar

    SHvar Member

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2008
    Messages:
    648
    In fact, proven by medical professionals, there has never been a single death caused by an electronic body imobilizer or taser that is approved for LEO use.
    A proven fact, many times when the excited perp is restrained, still high, still excited, angry, etc regardless of his actual physical condition, something as simple as sitting in a confined space (back seat of a cop car, or restrained in a chair, etc can cause positional asphyxia (not positive if spelled right, lol). The body relaxes after a traumatic experience and the bodys own weight and mass causes the victim to stop being able to breath and die. This is what kills when someone is crucified.
    In fact the most common way a perp dies after a struggle with LEO and are restrained is this.
    Nothing to do with the taser itself which only leaves temporary chemical reaction marks that disappear in hours.
    When you are gaining qualification to use an EBID on someone else you must have it used on you, that way you know what it actually does to a human.
    A taser has never killed anyone, period. This is why after a struggle the perp must be taken to the hospital or have medical observation for a period of time, sometimes 24 hours.
     
  2. Grey_Mana

    Grey_Mana Member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2008
    Messages:
    726
    Location:
    EST
    Manslaughter, not murder

    If I were on a jury, I would convict such a cop of manslaughter if the person had died. Presuming that the cop was grossly negligent in letting the person get control of the taser, then the cop contributed materially to the death of that BG.

    Shooting somebody about to taser you? Good shoot.
    Somebody dying because they got ahold of your taser/gun/car? Your fault.
     
  3. 30mag

    30mag Member

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2008
    Messages:
    671
    Location:
    Where West meets South, Texas
    Aren't baseball bats non-lethal weapons?
     
  4. shdwfx

    shdwfx Member

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2008
    Messages:
    579
    Location:
    Go Bucks!
    That's an incredible statement - shocking really.

    Officers are not super heroes. They don't posses the hulk's strength or have jedi reflexes, yet you expect to fault them if a perp over-powers and disarms them?

    Officers are killed every year with their own weapons.
    http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/killed/2007/index.html

    To generally fault the officers is obtuse.
    Your statement, sir, is in error.
     
  5. Hungry Seagull

    Hungry Seagull member

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2009
    Messages:
    2,167
    Oh great. Lead pipes and baseball bats. Sure. Let's deploy it over here.

    Taser man stands here. He fries the bat and pipe crew and then beats them to a pulp.

    No, a bat can kill you if you let it. Someone rushes you with a bat or pipe, that is agg battery with intent and you are going to need martial art or something fast to counter such a strike.

    If you had a gun or taser, you can end it right there. If all you had are fists and feet... eh, dont go down like a good victim.

    Believe me YOU dont WANT to take a blunt hit from a pipe, bat or whatever. I used to haul coil and pipe was our favorite fighting weapons, 6 feet long, one inch bore with a thick material of strong metal. We use them to bind down breakers on chain for the coils.

    If I attacked you with a pipe that big you will need a taser or gun to end it, unless you are trained in a hand to hand fighting of some sort and have the mental and physical skills to disarm me without need for a weapon.

    The worst hit I took was from a horse. I took a shoe off a hoof on my torso and breathing was... difficult in that field for a few minutes. It was possible I may not live to walk off that farm at the end of the workday or any day.

    No Bats and pipe are weapons. Especially if you attack someone who appears to be unarmed.

    I remember my Sensei regarding bats. He said they make big circle to step into to get inside the user of the bat. Easy solve the problem once inside. For him maybe. Not for jabba the forum reader like me.
     
  6. 30mag

    30mag Member

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2008
    Messages:
    671
    Location:
    Where West meets South, Texas
    My point being that an alleged 'non-lethal' weapon (bat was a bad example.. how about a baton?) is still a weapon.
    i.e. if someone was running at you with the intent to use a nonlethal weapon (baton, taser) I would think that would be a justifiable homicide.
     
  7. HIcarry

    HIcarry Member

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2008
    Messages:
    188
    Location:
    Hawaii
    Not sure what you're trying to say, but used correctly AEDs (and that's "Automated External Defibrilator") do not cause the type of burn (actually caused by electrical arching when, in the instance you mention, the pads are placed on conductive articles) but rather usually mild reddening where the patches were placed. That being said, I think most would rather have those minor burns than be dead....just a guess though.

    usmarine0352_2005 has it correct. There are instances of this excited delerium (a debatable diagnosis in medical circles BTW) resulting in death with and without a TASER involved.
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2009
  8. Rellian

    Rellian Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2009
    Messages:
    163
    I am curious as to your source. That is an extremely broad and yet absolute statement. Where did you come across this piece of very telling information?
     
  9. WC145

    WC145 Member

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2006
    Messages:
    2,353
    Location:
    Maine
    I've had the opportunity to "ride the lightning" (never heard it called being fried) and I can tell you that cops don't "fry each other all the time for fun". It hurts like hell and it isn't any fun, plus there's rules against that kind of crap. Playing games like that is a great way to get canned.
    However, as with OC spray, we get to experience the effect in training so that we can better understand how the tool works and how we respond to it personally. I know that if I am sprayed with OC or shot with a taser, the effect is debilitating enough that I may be unable to defend myself or protect my firearm(s). The supposition is that if someone attempts to "taze" me or spray me with OC then their intent is to disarm me and use my firearm(s) against me and others. That's where I get my justification for using deadly force.
     
  10. ChaoSS

    ChaoSS Member

    Joined:
    May 23, 2009
    Messages:
    1,111
  11. HIcarry

    HIcarry Member

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2008
    Messages:
    188
    Location:
    Hawaii
  12. SHvar

    SHvar Member

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2008
    Messages:
    648
    Using a baseball/softball bat for its intended purpose it is not a weapon, but if you wield it as a weapon or for the purpose of harming and or intimidating others, it is a deadly weapon. If someone wields a bat as a weapon a cop will shoot them, no questions asked.
    Not one judge or jury in this country would question the real intentions of the individual with the bat.
    Many objects can be use das weapons, in fact most people are murdered with screwdrivers, knives, and blunt household objects, etc, but they are not weapons when used properly.
    In law enforcement your weapon is to protect yourself or others, the options of less than lethal, non lethal force are to protect the perp and others if the situation allows for it.
    If the perp tries to take and or use any weapon from you he/she is automatically raising the level of force required to control the perp. If the individual is using a weapon they intend to either escape, harm themselves, the LEO, or others, no other reason. If they try to use a weapon of any kind they force the LEO to legally use deadly force in that situation, but if the situation allows for no lethal force to be used, it can be an option.
    There is no what ifs, or "well I wouldnt agree", its about life an death.
     
  13. ChaoSS

    ChaoSS Member

    Joined:
    May 23, 2009
    Messages:
    1,111
    They absolutely are, and often times the taser did not kill someone alone, but there were already circumstances that put the person in danger, and the tazer pushed them over the edge and death resulted. Maybe the tazer didn't technically kill the person, but if the tazer wasn't used, the person would still be alive.

    Tazers should be lethal force alternatives only. If I am charging a cop with a knife, a tazer is a perfectly acceptable tool to stop me. If I am not threatening someone, however, but simply am refusing to cooperate with the police, a situation where lethal force would not be acceptable, a tazer should not be either. It's use could lead to my death, and as we said, lethal force is unacceptable. In a situation where the cop is simply impatient to force me to comply, he can not know if there are any other circumstances that would contribute to the tazer killing me.
     
  14. WC145

    WC145 Member

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2006
    Messages:
    2,353
    Location:
    Maine
    You charge with a knife, you will be shot. The taser isn't there to replace the gun where the gun is the appropriate tool.

    The taser is another step in the force continuum, an option like other "less lethal" choices. I don't know how long you think I should wait for you to comply but, frankly, I'm not out there to play games and have a stand off with every joker that doesn't feel like going to jail. At the same time, I'm not going to go hands on if I don't have to. My job is not to wrestle with people, I am paid to enforce the law and that often entails taking people into custody which necessarily carries a certain amount of risk, HOWEVER, I am not paid to take unnecessary risks. Like OC spray, the taser option is there to help me gain compliance and control quickly with minimal risk to me and my "customer".

    If you choose not to comply you open the door to a number of possible methods to force you into compliance. Generally, the choice is yours, if you choose to peacefully submit to arrest it's easy for all concerned. On the other hand, if you choose some other avenue and escalate the situation steps will be taken to assure your compliance, although, if there is time, you will be warned, usually numerous times before being "tased" or sprayed, giving you one last chance to change your mind. You always choose how it's going to go.
    Fight your fight in the court, not on the street, on the street you will lose every time.
     
  15. Rellian

    Rellian Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2009
    Messages:
    163
    I was told (I studied EE in College) that 33 volts at 1/10 of an amp (basically .3 watts) can be lethal if applied to the right area in the body.... namely the heart. That is enough to stop it cold. There are numerous factors both technical and physiological that make the tasers usable on humans without too much worry of permanent damage (a person of reasonable health and body weight really does not have much to fear). But the truth is where most tasers operate in the six watt range average power, (peak can get up into the 100,000 watt range), you are talking more than enough power to kill (if the right conditions happen to fall into place). Hence while they are not likely to be lethal, the possibility does exist.
     
  16. Rellian

    Rellian Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2009
    Messages:
    163
    I mean this is part of the safety warnings on most taser guns:
     
  17. Green Dragoon

    Green Dragoon Member

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2009
    Messages:
    19
    Location:
    South Carolina
    If you hit a LEO with a Taser he is out of the fight and you can get his weapon and use it on him. By the very nature of your actions you are a threat to the LEO life.
     
  18. HIcarry

    HIcarry Member

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2008
    Messages:
    188
    Location:
    Hawaii
    I disagree. As WC145 mentioned, they are, and rightfully should be, a part of the force-escalation below the use of deadly force.
    If you have a medical condition, such as asthma of COPD, the use of MACE or pepper spray MAY be lethal to you; if you have atherosclerosis of the carotid artery, a choke hold MAY be lethal to you; if the bean-bag round hits you in the head, it MAY be lethal; if you inadvertently get struck in the head with a baton, it MAY be lethal; and if you have cardiomyopathy, a hands-on physical confrontation MAY be lethal as well. Yet all of these (with the possible exception of the choke hold for some agencies) are apparently OK with you? So, using your logic, because some intervention below lethal force MAY cause death in some individuals those options should be removed for use by LEOs? So, now we have the situation where these less-than-lethal options are removed and the officer is forced to move much more quickly up the force continuum to lethal force. Yeah, that'll save a lot more lives....
     
  19. 30mag

    30mag Member

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2008
    Messages:
    671
    Location:
    Where West meets South, Texas
    A TASER is a less-lethal defense.
    I agree with HIcarry.
    If a situation calls for lethal force, I'm reaching for a weapon that will handle the situation appropriately.

    (My friend's dad always say, "Bring enough gun." My friend now owns a .338 win mag.)
     
  20. Hungry Seagull

    Hungry Seagull member

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2009
    Messages:
    2,167
    I watched a vid the other night where a raving maniac of a homeowner was really, really, really pushing, provoking the LEO's surrounding his home past the point of no return and really thought he's going to get blasted and killed.

    A officer broke from the pack and advanced on the man with a 870 I figured Im about to watch this man die. SWAT was on the other side just bristling with all kinds of lethal guns and on the verge of storming the mad man.

    The Officer with the pump shotgun fired at close range and the man falls down, it turned out to be bean bags and they hauled the maniac into custody the hard way. Trussed like a hunted animal.

    If the Maniac had seen the one officer with his pump instead of being focused on keeping SWAT at bay.... I dont know what would have happened.

    It's kind of hard to be one maniac against a whole police force of a town for hours. You get tired after a while.
     
  21. Rellian

    Rellian Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2009
    Messages:
    163
    A very valid point, but the Taser should not be looked upon as a replacement for the more lethal gun either.

    There have been several posts in this thread that imply Tasers have never contributed to the death of someone. One post even came right out and said it was proven without siting the source ( :scrutiny: )
    I think they are a valuable tool in the spectrum. But they are not as panaceic as some would say. They (like anything else) can be dangerous. The thing that I took from ChaoSS statement was this should not be a quick fix for lazy cops to subdue anyone and everyone. (Unfortunately some LEOs will treat it as such) I think it places the need for a modicum of restraint on cops.
    That being said I also think that if you are acting in a belligerent and threatening manner then by all means you need to be dealt with by whatever force is needed to subdue your flagrant @$$. (Unfortunately some will see the actual perp as the victim) I can't change that.
    It's the misconceptions I have a problem with. Tasers are less-lethal than guns (possibly less-lethal than batons) and therefore can be employed at a lower threat level, yet...... they do, and have, contributed to deaths by their usage. Just something that should be kept in mind.
     
  22. SHvar

    SHvar Member

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2008
    Messages:
    648
    First of all the wattage does not kill a human or animal, the amperage kills. Its takes a very small amount of amperage to kill you, but the taser or a EBID only have around .0001 amps, nowhere near enough to harm you. The only people who the taser or an EBID have a health warning for are those with a specific neuromuscular disorder, multiple sclerosis. The reason is for uncontroled tremors produced in that specific area.

    "I am curious as to your source. That is an extremely broad and yet absolute statement."
    What Im saying is exactly how I worded it, NO HUMAN HAS EVER DIED FROM THE DIRECT EFFECTS OR USE OF A TASER OR EBID. These devices cannot effect your breathing, circulation, your heartbeat, or your brain, they purely effect your neuromuscular system immediately in that area.
    Ive had these things used on me, Id rather have them used on me than OC (pepper spray), but then again I have allergies and asthma (inherited).
    The classes we have to take in order to stay current on training, and to use EBID/tasers you get the most up to date information.
    "Not sure what you're trying to say"
    Among the many classes we have to take to as a part of our job we have a class on the AED, the first warning given by experienced medical professionals about the use of AEDs, if the victim has any piercings that you know of remove them, or the area of skin with the metal piercing will be burnt, and possibly gone. So think about the amount of piercings individuals get in all manner of places. Im sorry but saving your life is more important than worrying about you losing a nipple or worse yet, genitals if you have them pierced. The unfortunate side effect of burnt piercing locations was found out by hospitals and paramedics over time.
    If you try to take a taser, or pepper spray or use them on any LEO, you deserve what you get, natural selection will prevail, you will be dead or wish that you were.
    By the way the force continuom starts with the LEO presence, it moves to control techniques, next to EBID/taser and OC (pepper spray), next for those with the option is chemical weapons (CS gas), next to physical strikes (punch, kick, elbow, etc), next to the use of a baton, and last to deadly force. Keep in mind most LEOs only have certain options, and are not there for perps to beat on or to see how much they can be pushed. The idea is to control the situation, and get things back to normal fast, also for the LEO to make it home to their family unhurt, and alive, not to allow you to fight with them.
    All deaths caused by the use of force or restraints in the history of modern law enforcement are the result of positional asphyxia, this is where you get worked up and your body comes down eventually, you die from your body weight and mass relaxing on your diaphram, this is not the result of the force used on you. In fact people die every day falling asleep sitting up from the same reason, usually you would wake up if you stop breathing though. Most of these deaths are from the individual who was just erratic and fighting, juiced up, now is restrained to prevent harm to himself or others, the position of the body if not laying down can result in positional asphyxia.
    OC and tasers do not kill, they are not lethal to mumans. In fact 500,000 volts in a specialty stungun is not dangerous. LEO approved taser and or EBID are only 50,000 volts. Heck my wifes stungun is 100,000 volts.
    Regardless of how much you question or argue this, the taser has never killed anyone, and noone who has been tasered or an EBID used on them has ever died from the device or its electric shock.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2009
  23. Spreadfire Arms

    Spreadfire Arms Member

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2005
    Messages:
    1,312
    in Austin, TX, a few years ago, Austin PD Officer Julie Schroeder was involved in a physical struggle against an 18 year old suspect, Daniel Rocha.

    during the struggle, Schroeder's taser fell off of her holster. she believed Rocha had taken it from her and was about to use it on her partner officer.

    Schroeder shot and killed Rocha. turned out Rocha never had the taser, it had fallen off her belt and onto the ground.

    Schroeder was fired by APD, but no-billed by the Travis County Grand Jury. so in Travis County, case law has already been set forth that if an officer reasonably thinks you took their taser they can use deadly force.

    remember, the Grand Jury only takes into consideration what a reasonable officer would believe. they believed that she actually thought Rocha had her taser and was about to use it against a 3rd person. Rocha in fact never picked it up, and was shot and killed.

    food for thought.
     
  24. ChaoSS

    ChaoSS Member

    Joined:
    May 23, 2009
    Messages:
    1,111
    WC145, your post makes you sound like the type of cop who uses his tazer and excessive force so you don't have to do your job properly.

    I'm sorry if this is offensive, but there was a time when cops were real men. These days some of the cops I see out there are real nancy boys who are going to have no choice but to use a possibly lethal tazer in any physical confrontation. They should never be allowed to call themselves cops.

    If the cop is the arm of the law, he should be able to perform that duty without using what often amounts to dangerous force, he (or often she) should not be given the job.

    If I standing off against two cops, and shot one of them with a tazer, they would consider it sufficient provocation that the second cop would feel justified in shooting (with a real gun). They need to be consistent and consider the tazer what it is, a dangerous tool that should be used to end a dangerous situation, not a tool for lazy cops to use to torture people into submission.
     
  25. SHvar

    SHvar Member

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2008
    Messages:
    648
    For anyone who questions the choice of any LEO to use force (lethal, or less than lethal) in order to make sure that they get home alive, and healthy, you need to place yourself in their shoes. LEOs get sued all of the time, 99% of these suits are frivilous, and many times dont even involve the correct LEO, the correct day, the correct time, location, and sometimes the correct state, but this is normal for the "tough guy" perp who takes advantage of our legal system and our taxes (which many of them never paid a cent).
    It is better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6. These days the "Nancy boy" criminals roaming the streets carry and use guns, knives, all manner of weapons, and are infected with dangerous diseases that can infect and cripple or kill you (some with very little contact or indirect contact).
    If the criminals act in a way that causes LEOs to have to change how they do their job and to use higher levels of force, then society needs to wake up and fix the problem where it starts, not wait until the problem becomes an adult felon.
    By the way strikes (elbow, fist, kicks, headbutts, knee strikes, etc) are far more dangerous to a human than and EBID/taser, or OC are, this is why strikes against the individual are placed higher on the continuom, STRIKES CAN AND DO CAUSE DEATHS TO PEOPLE ON A DAILY BASIS, it doesnt take much, ask a paramedic or doctor.
    The fact is that the LEO was justified in using deadly force when the criminal (notice I said criminal, yes, criminal acts make you a criminal) attempted to incapacitate the officer which could lead to that criminal inflicting death or serious bodily harm to another person.
    Before you give an opinion against the use of tasers, or defending against them by LEOs, put yourself in their shoes, in that situation, until then, put up or shut up.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice