Taser/Lethal force question

[rrruuunnn]

The man stopped breathing in under a minute. Maybe, the guy had cocaine before coming to the US or heart problems.

 

[bigger hammer]

The man stopped breathing in under a minute. Maybe, the guy had cocaine before coming to the US or heart problems.

He had been working himself up for a loooong time. THEN he fought with the police and THEN he was Tased. I'm sure that, as in other cases that end like this, the cause of death will found to be due to something OTHER than the Taser, if that's not already the case.

 

[Neverwinter]

He had been working himself up for a loooong time. THEN he fought with the police and THEN he was Tased. I'm sure that, as in other cases that end like this, the cause of death will found to be due to something OTHER than the Taser, if that's not already the case.

Lots of people have died not from the taser but from restraint during excited delirium.

http://epe.lac-bac.gc.ca/100/201/300/cdn_medical_association/cmaj/vol-158/issue-12/1603.htm
http://www.charlydmiller.com/LIB04/2001stratton.pdf

 

[SHvar]

Police approved tasers in the US are 50,000 volts only, no higher, as I said civilian tasers for self defence go way way higher and do not have the 5 second burst time programmed into them.
Ive had multiple 50,000 volt LEO approved EBIDs tried on me, and a range of civilian self defence models starting with 100,000 volts, 300,000 volts, and so far never the 500,000 volt model. The civilian models that are made for self defence in most cases will shock until the circuit heats up, then shut down for a few seconds (this can be 30 seconds or more). Some at 100,000 or lower, will hold that shock until the battery is too weak to continue.
You cannot possibly do that with a police approved taser or EBID device.

If a guy standing on a street corner bites into a hotdog, enjoying the flavor so much takes a step back onto the curb edge where 2 teens racing their cars at 75 MPH are driving in a 25 mph speed limit zone, one hits him while swerving and the guy dies, the hotdog was not the cause of his death.

 

[rrruuunnn]

I will rewatch my video manual that came with my C2. Maybe, my memory is not correct. The taser goes through cycles preprogrammed in order to keep the BG alive. Also the civilian C2 is 50,000 volts.

 

[rrruuunnn]

I just rewatched the taser manual again:

Civilian C2:
It is rated at 50,000 volts. The lithium battery can operate the "Taser for over 25 minutes of continuous firing or over 50 firings of the full 30 second discharge cycle." During the 30 second cycle, the initial burst is the strongest. Cycle: 17 pulse/second for 5 seconds, then 10 pulse/second for 10 seconds, then pauses, a brief 17 pulse/second, 8 pulse/second for the remainder seconds.

The Taser is really a great option. Even my CHL instructor was excited about these. But I'm worried of the worst case scenario since I carry cash. Such as a planned ambush by 2 or more gunmen.

 

[Rellian]

If your so intelligent, and so educated Rellian you should have no problem proving one case that backs up your point

I'm sorry if it bothers you that I trust my (albeit undergrad) studies in Physics, EE, and Biology to your repeated factoids. I know what I trust and I know my sources.
BTW, I have to ask
Are you an employee of Taser? because you certainly do sound like one.

 

[bigger hammer]

If your so intelligent, and so educated Rellian you should have no problem proving one case that backs up your point

I'm sorry if it bothers you that I trust my (albeit undergrad) studies in Physics, EE, and Biology to your repeated factoids. I know what I trust and I know my sources.

Translation: I don't have even a single case to back up my point but if I show everyone how learned I am, perhaps they won't notice.

BTW, I have to ask Are you an employee of Taser? because you certainly do sound like one.

Translation: I still don't have any facts to support my argument but perhaps no one will notice if I make the discussion about you instead of about the Taser.

Clever evasions of the questions, but evasions, nonetheless.

 

[Neverwinter]

If a guy standing on a street corner bites into a hotdog, enjoying the flavor so much takes a step back onto the curb edge where 2 teens racing their cars at 75 MPH are driving in a 25 mph speed limit zone, one hits him while swerving and the guy dies, the hotdog was not the cause of his death.

If the driver consequently hits a telephone pole while not wearing his seatbelt, the lack of seatbelt use would also not be a cause of death.

I'm sorry if it bothers you that I trust my (albeit undergrad) studies in Physics, EE, and Biology to your repeated factoids. I know what I trust and I know my sources.

Taser International has taken medical professionals to court over inclusion of the Taser in their findings. Your undergrad degree won't stand a chance.

 

[rrruuunnn]

No one is saying, at least me, that tasers are dangerous. But I'd like to know if police tasers require special training to be safe? The civilian versions are controlled programming.

The original topic is whether the cop felt in danger. It doesn't matter tasers are lethal to answer that question.

 

[usmarine0352_2005]

No one is saying, at least me, that tasers are dangerous. But I'd like to know if police tasers require special training to be safe? The civilian versions are controlled programming.

The original topic is whether the cop felt in danger. It doesn't matter tasers are lethal to answer that question.

Not that I know if. There pretty simple, point, pull trigger.

.

 

[Rellian]

Translation: I don't have even a single case to back up my point but if I show everyone how learned I am, perhaps they won't notice.

You missed my original point.. If you cannot be bothered to read earlier posts then that is your problem, I will not reiterate for you. My original question to SHvar and has still not yet been answered. You on the other hand have been pretty belligerent throughout. I do not need to prove squat to you. All you can say is blah blah court case, court case, court case. You have provided nothing else. Go troll someone else.

Translation: I still don't have any facts to support my argument but perhaps no one will notice if I make the discussion about you instead of about the Taser.

Me thinks you too are an employee

Taser International has taken medical professionals to court over inclusion of the Taser in their findings. Your undergrad degree won't stand a chance.

The courts upheld Jim Crow Laws for years. Does this mean those were correct?
Courts are not about fact they are about what can be proven...... which is not necessarily fact. And yes Undergrad text are accepted in courts of law.

 

[bigger hammer]

Earlier I wrote (after Rellian regaled us with his education resume) ,

Translation: I don't have even a single case to back up my point but if I show everyone how learned I am, perhaps they won't notice.

Remember that Rellian was asked for a case that backed up his point. Instead of providing one he told us of his education.

You missed my original point..

No, I got it. What you missed what that you were asked for "… one case that back[ed] up your point." Instead you described your education.

You on the other hand have been pretty belligerent throughout.

Have I? Asking for incidents to support your position is "pretty belligerent?" I guess we have vastly different definitions of "belligerent."

I do not need to prove squat to you.

Of course you don't. Unless you want to have some credibility. LOL.

All you can say is blah blah court case, court case, court case. You have provided nothing else. Go troll someone else.

You are one who has taken the position that Tasers can be fatal. You described an incident in your "home town" where someone died as a result of being Tased. You even told us that the coroner agreed with this cause of death. Yet, when asked for news stories of this incident you provided nothing.

You've also supplied nothing to support your statement that Tasers can be fatal except opinion. You've been asked numerous questions and instead of answering them, have evaded and avoided them. When you supply something concrete and tangible, when you answer those questions, you might have some credibility. Until then …………

Me thinks you too are an employee

This is just SOMETHING ELSE that you're wrong about.

Taser International has taken medical professionals to court over inclusion of the Taser in their findings. Your undergrad degree won't stand a chance.

The courts upheld Jim Crow Laws for years. Does this mean those were correct?
Courts are not about fact they are about what can be proven...... which is not necessarily fact. And yes Undergrad text are accepted in courts of law.

Great. Now can you show us a single case where a Taser was found to be the cause of death?

 

[Neverwinter]

An autopsy report from the Cook County's Medical Examiner's Office attributed the death of Ronald Hasse, 54, to electrocution from two Taser jolts delivered by a Chicago police officer. The autopsy said methamphetamines contributed to Hasse's death.

Taser strongly criticized the Medical Examiner's Office in a statement Friday and said it will challenge the autopsy.

"We believe that the scientific and medical community will publicly challenge this conclusion based upon the lack of credible evidence," Taser spokesman Steve Tuttle wrote in an e-mail on Friday. "Taser International will seek a judicial review of the report and the basis for which those statements were made."

This is not the first time Taser has challenged a medical examiner. For years, Taser officials publicly said the stun gun was never cited in an autopsy report. But an Arizona Republic investigation last year revealed that Tasers have been cited repeatedly by medical examiners in death cases and that Taser did not start collecting autopsy reports until last April.

Taser officials later maintained that the medical examiners in those cases were wrong and did not have the credentials or expertise necessary to examine deaths involving stun guns. They now maintain that Tasers have never been cited by a medical examiner as "the sole cause of death."

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/0730taser30.html

 

[Neverwinter]

Originally Posted by divemedic
4 People died while in custody before Tasers were used or even invented. The only way to attribute this to Taser usage in my mind would be to compare the rate of in custody death before Tasers to the rate of in custody deaths after Taser introduction.

The rate of in-custody sudden death increased 6.4-fold (95% confidence interval 3.2-12.8, p = 0.006) and the rate of firearm death increased 2.3-fold (95% confidence interval 1.3–4.0, p = 0.003) in the in the first full year after Taser deployment compared with the average rate in the 5 years before deployment.

no significant change in the rate of serious OIs(Officer Injuries) after Taser deployment

From a study published in the American Journal of Cardiology.
http://www.ajconline.org/article/S0002-9149(08)02113-9/abstract

There is a good side to the results. The article mentions that in the two years following the year of taser introduction, the deaths decreased from their 6 fold increase back to pre-taser deployment rates.

 

[divemedic]

Interesting. So, do we look at this as a statistical anomaly? Was there some other factor involved? After all, if the Tasers were the cause of the ICDs, then it seems to me that the death rate from Taser deployment would not have dropped in years 2-5.

Very interesting that OI did not fall as a result of Taser use. It has been my experience that the police I work with were much quicker to resort to the Taser when it was a new toy then they are now. I wonder if the study took that into account by expressing the rate as ICD per deployment, or if the ICD rate was computed as deaths per arrest. That could account for the increase, and would explain the disparity.

 

[bigger hammer]

Neverwinter posted info from THIS link.

Here's some of that info.

An autopsy report from the Cook County's Medical Examiner's Office attributed the death of Ronald Hasse, 54, to electrocution from two Taser jolts delivered by a Chicago police officer. The autopsy said methamphetamines contributed to Hasse's death.

Taser strongly criticized the Medical Examiner's Office in a statement Friday and said it will challenge the autopsy. [Emphasis added]

Sorry but a report from a "medical Examiner's office" is not the final say in these matters. MANY times they've been proven wrong by experts from Taser. Get back to us after that challenge is done and THEN and only then you might have a point.

The article quotes Taser

We believe that the scientific and medical community will publicly challenge this conclusion based upon the lack of credible evidence

So far not one such finding has withstood such a challenge.

 

[bigger hammer]

Neverwinter also posted a link to AN ABSTRACT from THIS scientific study.

An abstract is worthless. Without knowing how the information was gathered and the potential bias of the folks doing the study, we don't know whether the abstract is accurate or not. Often they contain conclusions of the people doing the study that ARE NOT supported by the study.

 

[Neverwinter]

An abstract is worthless. Without knowing how the information was gathered and the potential bias of the folks doing the study, we don't know whether the abstract is accurate or not. Often they contain conclusions of the people doing the study that ARE NOT supported by the study.

MANY times they've been proven wrong by experts from Taser.

Oh the delicious irony.

It has been my experience that the police I work with were much quicker to resort to the Taser when it was a new toy then they are now.

The eagerness to use the new and less familiar tool could have exaggerated the incidences of death. There was no mention of any change in the policies for the use of the tasers. Behavior such as refraining from multiple successive shocks on a restrained person, not using it on someone in danger of falling death, etc. Many of these are already included in the departmental policy of agencies deploying the taser.

 

[bigger hammer]

The eagerness to use the new and less familiar tool could have exaggerated the incidences of death. There was no mention of any change in the policies for the use of the tasers. Behavior such as refraining from multiple successive shocks on a restrained person, not using it on someone in danger of falling death, etc. Many of these are already included in the departmental policy of agencies deploying the taser.

And STILL we don't have a single case where a court or jury has found that the Taser was a cause of death. You seem to keep missing this very simple fact.

144 posts and NO ONE has been able to provide such information! Hmm talk about irony. ROFLMAO.

 

[DHJenkins]

I have a question - how many people have been tased while complying with an officer's instructions?

 

[divemedic]

I have a question - how many people have been tased while complying with an officer's instructions?

I know of a few that I was personally there for. Those are anecdotes, however.


But is that what an officer's weapons are for? To produce compliance? And here I was thinking that force was only lawfully used to protect life, stop felonies, and the like. I didn't know it was like a remote control attitude adjuster.

ETA: I just checked Florida law. Not a word in there about using force to make someone comply with an officer's instructions.

776.05 Law enforcement officers; use of force in making an arrest.--A law enforcement officer, or any person whom the officer has summoned or directed to assist him or her, need not retreat or desist from efforts to make a lawful arrest because of resistance or threatened resistance to the arrest. The officer is justified in the use of any force:

(1) Which he or she reasonably believes to be necessary to defend himself or herself or another from bodily harm while making the arrest;

(2) When necessarily committed in retaking felons who have escaped; or

(3) When necessarily committed in arresting felons fleeing from justice. However, this subsection shall not constitute a defense in any civil action for damages brought for the wrongful use of deadly force unless the use of deadly force was necessary to prevent the arrest from being defeated by such flight and, when feasible, some warning had been given, and:

(a) The officer reasonably believes that the fleeing felon poses a threat of death or serious physical harm to the officer or others; or

(b) The officer reasonably believes that the fleeing felon has committed a crime involving the infliction or threatened infliction of serious physical harm to another person.

 

[DHJenkins]

Alright, let me rephrase - how many people have been tased and not subsequently arrested?

 

[Art Eatman]

This has all gone way away from the opening post. And as usual with multi-page threads, the personal stuff starts coming in.