Taurus "The Judge" Can it fire +P Ammo in 45 LC?

[mreid74]

no fight

Most factory loads vary about 10-15%. A plus p will can add up to 50% or more power. If you disagree, I will gladly let you shoot my titanium judge with no disclaimer. I still have all of my fingers and factory warranty. It still makes a lot louder boom than a cowboy load. . Taurus Manual P. 11 "These Taurus Titanium revolvers are designed to withstand the regular use of +p jacketed ammunition. However, we do not recommend that you utilize +p lead bullet ammunition as the typically light crimp on the lead bullets could could cause some of them to unseat from the case, moving forward in the chaber, and possibly blocking the cylinder's rotation."

 

[sheltongrn]

.45LC in Judge...a .454 Casull will fit

FYI for the ++P++ of your life, make sure that this round is the last shot in your chamber and the bad guy is very close to you and there is no way out...

 

[suemarkp]

It won't fit, at least it won't fit in mine. There is a lip in the cylinder where the 45 Colt case ends. A 454 case won't seat all the way, and a 460 S&W stops way short of where it needs to go. The only long brass case that will fit is a 444 Marlin, and even then the bullets must be deep seated. Nothing with a 45 cal bullet will fit if the case is longer than 45 colt, because the chamber past the lip is only about .452 in diameter (so there is no room for brass around the bullet). That is why the 444 Marlin fits -- the OD of the loaded case is .450 at the crimp. But the bullet won't engage the rifling (.429 bullet in the .451 barrel).

 

[unlearned69]

Now that would be cool. A 454/410 Judge. Pretty sure I wouldn't want one in titanium though. I bet that would give you a nice smack on the hand.

 

[scrat]

Ok i have been shooting some 45 LC the old way. Winchester large pistol primer, Goex 3f black powder, 300 grain lrn. Anyhow i thought the recoil, sound and smoke was all normal. Then a few months ago i was low on ammo did not have the time to reload or anything so i go into big 5 and buy a box of Remington Express 45 long colt. Ok. $45.99 that will never happen again. So last time i was at the range i started to shoot my loads. Then put some cleaning patches through the gun. Then pulled out the Remington 45 lc. Wow what a difference. The Remington felt like i was shooting a 22. Very very mild not that loud either. So i say if your looking for a stellar round you need to try out bp rounds. As for the remington. Well lets just say im glad im out of them Because i dont have any plans on shooting them again.

 

[scrat]

Ok i hear a lot of talk about 45 lc. Whats 45lc and 45 colt.
First the exchanges.

The .45 Colt is the basis for the much more powerful .454 Casull cartridge, with the .454 Casull having a slightly longer and stronger case. Any .454 Casull revolver will also chamber and fire .45 Colt, but the inverse is impossible due to the Casull's longer case.

The .460 S&W Magnum is an even longer version of the .454 Casull and the .45 Colt. Likewise, .460 Magnum revolvers can also chamber and fire the two lesser calibers, but again, the inverse is impossible.

The .45 ACP round produces inferior game killing ability, as it cannot use heavyweight bullets. It uses a much shorter overall cartridge length, with faster burning powders and higher chamber pressures, allowing it to be used in more compact autoloading pistols and submachine guns. Because of this, the .45 ACP is superior to the .45 Colt for military purpose

 

[scrat]

Now the name 45 colt, 45lc

The debate over whether there is a .45 "Long" Colt cartridge is an on-going one that has been active for probably 75 years. Elmer Keith alluded to the arguments many years ago when he wrote "...Some newcomers to the game claim there is no such animal, but if they had shot the short variety that Remington turned out in such profusion before, during and after World War I they would see there was some basis in referring to the .45 Colt as the .45 Long..." (Elmer Keith, Sixguns, page 285)


As far as I know there have never been any .45 Colt cartridges head-stamped "Long" and though I have reports of old cartridge boxes marked "45 Long" I have never personally seen any. Mr. Keith referred to them from time to time as "long" Colt's (with a small "L"). If you have ever seen the short Colt .45's you can understand why.

The Winchester .45 Colt's that Paco and I have came from Shootist Keith Owlett who gave them to us a short time before he passed on. The cartridge box is deteriorated and I have it put



away now - at least what's left of it. But it is plainly marked ".45 Colt Government". The head-stamp on the cartridges is ".45 Colt" ... BUT these are SHORT .45 Colts! The head-stamp is the same as the longer .45 Colts, even down to the "W" on the primers.

These are not S&W or Schofield cartridges. The rim diameter is the same as the long .45 Colts, which is smaller than the Schofield rim diameter. These are true .45 Short Colts. The cartridge is listed in Cartridges of the World on page 306 as ".45 Colt - .45 Colt Government".

I can visualize someone walking into a hardware store around the turn of the last century and asking for a box of .45 Colt's. As the clerk pulls down a box the customer says, "Not the short ones. I want the Long Colts!" and the name ".45 Long Colt" came down to us as a "user-applied" name, not a factory name.



While I can't prove it, I believe the usage was common since Colt had factory cartridges like the .32 Short Colt, .32 Long Colt, .38 Short Colt, .38 Long Colt, .41 Short Colt and the .41 Long Colt.

I pulled one of the .45 shorts apart and weighed and measured it. The case is 1.1" long. The powder charge was black powder, approximately 28 grains. The bullet weighed right at 230 gr. and was lubed with a white chalky-looking substance. I fired one from my Ruger 7 1/2" barreled .45 and it went through the chronograph at near 750 fps.

Today after looking at all this and all the years we have been calling the 45 colt. 45 Long Colt even Colt itself refers to the 45 Long Colt. However you still can not find a box of ammo labeled 45 Colt. Same time we must remember that the 45 Long Colt was designed a long time ago and for years after its birth was labeled as the big slow slug. Yet with its slow speed it has served its time in history and has been a very important piece of American History.

http://www.coltsmfg.com/cmci/revolvers.asp

 

[wd6bgn]

A chat with corbon

Hi, and great forum.
I just got off the phone with corbon. Funny thing, the tec guy also shoots a Judge (3" chamber & 3" barrel). So I asked him about shooting the 200 gr +P ammo.

Here is about what he said. On his gun they ran 200 rounds through it and showed no problems at all. No sticking cases, no pushed primers, and no loosning of the crain. So for part time use, it should be OK. Not really for 100 rounds a weekend, week after week. (At $27.00 for 20 rounds that might be a bit expensive.) He also mentioned that this round for for defence.

So I wouldn't go for the super rounds, but you can push it a bit.

BTW, on my Judge (2.5" cl, 3" barrel) the rated 1100 fps round measured about 950 fps. Still about 500 foot pounds of energy.

Cheers to all, from North East Missouri.

 

[Elvishead]

Per Double Tap Ammo

.45 Colt +P 300gr. Controlled Exp. JHP 50rds. $42.95

Click to enlarge
This is the load that you've been waiting for! Deep penetration, controlled expansion, and match-grade accuracy make this load very hard to beat! The 300gr Controlled Expansion JHP expands perfectly at these speeds and makes your .45 Colt into an excellent deer and elk pistol. These loads are safe in all large frame Ruger revolvers, TC Contender, Colt Anaconda, and Freedom Arms firearms. These loads are safe in all modern Model 1892 leverguns as well as all Winchester & Marlin 1894's. DO NOT USE IN ANY OTHER FIREARM. THESE ARE NOT STANDARD PRESSURE CARTRIDGES!

Caliber : .45 Colt +P

Bullet : 300gr. Controlled Expansion JHP

Ballistics : 1325fps - 1170 ft./lbs. - 7.5" bbl.
1688fps from a 16.5" carbine

Box of 50rds.

 

[Captain]

I put over 100 rds of hot +P loads thru my Judge and it still works and shoots just fine. From my experience I wouldn't hesitate to shoot them in the Judge. I understand the accelerated wear the gun will be subject to, but for a defensive gun, I think it's worth it.

 

[MCgunner]

The judge has little use IMHO for any outdoor activities. It's not accurate enough for hunting, too much free bore. The shotgun range is 5 feet, maybe. It's sole use is home defense as I see it. NO, I would NOT shoot Ruger/TC only loads in that gun, not strong enough. I like Taurus revolvers, have several, but I've never been impressed with or felt the need for a judge. I see it as sort of a sales gimick. If you want a USEFUL .45 Colt/.410 pistol for outdoor use, get a TC Contender with said barrel. I have one and can take birds on the wing or running rabbits or small game (I have) out to 20-25 yards with the shotgun since the choke on that gun works rather well. It can fire +P and mine's around 7-8" at 100 yards accurate. With irons on it, I could take deer or hogs with it to 50 yards rather easily, though I have better barrels for hunting. Again, it's the free bore that messes up the accuracy in this combination. I don't know about the Judge, but the TC tends to strip the rifling with cast loads loaded to +P pressures, too. That causes massive leading and inaccuracy. I have to shoot jacketed bullets in my hot loads. It pushes a 300 grain XTP/JHP with 20.0 grains of 2400 to about 1200 fps, not a REAL hot load, but getting pretty warm and a might warm for something like the judge. It is very accurate in my Ruger Blackhawk as are cast loads.

Suit yourself. If you want to, for some weird reason, tear up your judge with hunting loads meant to penetrate heavy game, go for it. I wouldn't do it. These loads are NOT optimum self defense loads, way too much penetration. I'd handload a 200 grain Speer gold dot to 1400 or so FPS if I wanted a hot self defense round for my Blackhawk. That's not what this gun is about, though. The Blackhawk is an extremely accurate outdoor revolver capable of firing the hottest sane .45 Colt loads all day long and twice on Sunday and capable of doing anything a .44 magnum can do. This is not what the Judge is about and it cannot hope to match a Blackhawk's accuracy what with all that free bore. I don't use my TC .45 Colt barrel for deer hunting for that reason. I have a .30-30 barrel I much prefer, 1.5 MOA accuracy with a 2x LER scope and it lays down the law at long range..

 

[JesseL]

I wonder what Ruger would tell you about "Ruger only" loads?

 

[Jst1mr]

Don't know the advantage of the Judge for SD??? The .45LC can be a fine round for SD, though its accuracy may be impeded by the long "jump", but the .410 rounds are basically worthless - birdshot is worthless in any gauge for SD, and the .410 slugs and buckshot achieve less than 70% of recommended penetration for SD purposes. These loads look impressive on paper targets ONLY. A regular revolver in .45LC makes much more sense, w/ shotshells for the occasional snake.

 

[cottonmouth]

I would not shoot the hot loads. I saw one at a gunshow with a cracked frame last year, I bet a hot load did it.

J.B.

 

[Sistema1927]

Back when I was a young whippersnapper (the "Super Vel" days), I was known to "hot rod" some of my hand loads.

Now that I am older (and hopefully wiser) I recognize that there are few tasks that I will use my handguns for that won't be met with a 250 gr .452 slug exiting the barrel ~900 fps.

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

Sure, it can fire ONE. In other words, NO.

 

[rogertc1]

When did Taurus start make a 3" Magnum Titanium model? The Ultra lite I have is aluminum alloy.

 

[Monster Zero]

Why would a sane person want to do that?

 

[fxstchewy]

you can fire the Buffalo Bore STANDARD loads 255 grn, I like the Georgia Arms 200 grn gold-dots in mine.

 

[EnsignJimmy]

No, just no. Do not shoot Ruger-class loads out a Taurus Judge. Do you see those thin cylinder walls and that skinny top-strap? This is a gun of the same strength class as the Colt New Service, and the S&W 25. You might get away with shooting the occasional .45 ACP pressure-level round, like the 200 gr Cor-Bon "+P," but that extra hammering is going to drastically reduce the service life of the gun. The Cor-Bon 300 gr moose-blasters? Forget it! Your best bet with those is to is to throw the Judge to the BG and taunt him into shooting at you. Preferably from behind something resistant to shrapnel.

Stay with the tried-and-true 255 grain Keith SWC at ~900 ft/sec. That load will eat whitetails for lunch at a hundred yards. It'll be good medicine against bad guys at any range you could reliably hit something with the Judge. Buffalo Bore, as has been said, offers a load that drives a 255 grain bullet at 950 ft/sec out of a 4" barrel. The Federal 225 gr LHPs are good anti-BG rounds, as are the .45 Colt 250 grain Gold Dots. Against bad guys, the standard .45 Colt load has a proven 136 year track-record. Save the hot stuff for mooses.

 

[RtWngGunut]

Here come the Judge

I have a Judge Stainless 3 in bbl, and 3 inch cyl.

I used to have a Ruger 45LC Blackhawk. I had some of my HOT loads, and at the risque of blowing the Judge up, I shot a fuul cyl. ALL the shells stuck in the cyl. So I reduced the load to that of a Plus P load, and the Judge held it's own, and the shells no longer stuck in cyl, So the Staniless version of the Judge WILL handle 45LC+P

However I do not recomend ANYTHING Hotter, like the loads of a Ruger or Tompson Contender. If you read your data loading books, and load your 45LC right in the middle between a Hot Cowboy load, and a Ruger Load, that is where the load is about nearly Max for the Judge

 

[1KPerDay]

Welcome to the High Road. This thread is 3 years old, and your test would hardly qualify as scientific. I'd advise people to check with Taurus.

 

[RtWngGunut]

I understand about scientific. I have been reloading all sorts of ammo since I got out of the military over 30 years ago. I have only blown up ONE gun in my life, and that was because of a week cyl.

However, I have used 45LC that were hotter then factory +P, and it survived. Actually I went through a half a box of them before I got tired of having to knock the shells out by hand. So unless you can say you have done the same with the same or different results, this is the results of my testing. And the Bullet I used was a Hornady 255 gr XTP, also a 250 gr 45 acp FMJ Ball. NO I didn't use a 45 ACP Loaded Round, just the Bullet

 

[FoMoGo]

Ummm... isnt the sticking shells an indicator that the cyl is flexing under pressure?
Seems like that flexing is an indicator that the load is a bit too high to be safe.


Jim

 

[Nick5182]

You could always get the new "Judge" when it comes out. It's the Raging Judge Magnum .454 casull/ .45 colt. / 3" .410. comes with either a 3 or 6 inch barrel. I don't know when they'll be available though.