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Tax dodgers taunt police from hilltop compound

Discussion in 'Legal' started by Matt King, Jun 21, 2007.

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  1. Titan6

    Titan6 member

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    TBL- While I would never, ever wish for it I agree entirely. We will never see real change in this country so long as 90% of the people are fat, dumb and happy.

    What I find most interesting about the control aspect is that Regean simplified the tax code in an attempt to allow people to have more control over their lives and Clinton brought it roaring right back. You can always tell how well an administration supports individual freedom by their tax policy yet we discuss it so little other than in the terms of ''What's in it for me?''. Can you imagine if the government allowed a deduction for say self defense weapons? Everyone would be talking about what kind of toy they would buy and not the huge policy shift.
     
  2. Thin Black Line

    Thin Black Line Member

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    Titan, it's a hard balance between the individual and the collective. Between
    tax policies and gun-control policies, one really gets a good measure of
    where things are at.

    Theodore Roosevelt said it well back in 1910, but here we are nearly 100 years
    later and things have changed little:

    Teddy was a good example of our mixed nature --apparently pro-gun for the
    individual, but also not an isolationist when it came to collective politics and
    international intervention. We 2A supporters like him anyway.
     
  3. Jeff

    Jeff Member

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    Titan6, where did I utter such a thing? :confused:
     
  4. Mot45acp

    Mot45acp Member

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    Meanwhile back at the ranch.............
    Anyone know the current status of the Browns?(ya know the topic)


    ps Butterfingers after 1/2 hour in the freezer
     
  5. Titan6

    Titan6 member

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    *TBL- That was a fine speech. One of the finest I have seen posted here at THR. T. Roosevelt has always been my favorite historical president. But as he said it is only through experimentation that we will determine what works and what does not in the modern world. Some ideas work well and others... not so well.

    A common argument that antis bring up is that guns are an uneeded anachronism of yesteryear as we are no longer taming the frontier or face serious threat of invasion. As our civilization evolves so unevenly certainly the threats are less even if they come from new sources as well as old. However a fundamental right and duty to self defense and the resistance to tyranny is not one that is easily understood in the world today by the socialist minded people of our country.

    Certainly TR could see the threat of the modern world which is why we have the EPA and FDA among other things to provide protections from what could easily be a mass murder ''accident'' every year. I find it quite humorous when people talk of getting rid of such organizations because corporations are so much more ''responsible'' than the government. As if a corporation has a duty of any kind other than to the stockholders and would act in a moral manner and legal manner if left unpoliced.

    One would wonder what TR would think of our society today and if we have gotten it right... Certainly we are no longer a society of rugged individualists; but we have not quite reached socialism either. I see a line I may have to add to my sig.



    Jeff- My apologies to you. That was helpless in post #238. I am usually more careful than that.
    Sigh*
     
  6. Mumwaldee

    Mumwaldee member

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    Lively discussion. Fairly clean too! Hopefully the debate will spread and lead people to educate themselves and others more on the subject.

    I don't want to see Ed + Elaine or any of their supporters hurt. I don't want to see any of the Feds or their support come to harm either.

    It's amazing the internet is having an impact. Hopefully little brother keeping an eye on big brother will save some lives.
     
  7. helpless

    helpless Member

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    Not for long...
    http://www.handsoff.org/blog/


    Browns supporter arrested...
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=he-KoN9rVws

    This from there blog from yesterday....
     
  8. Jeff

    Jeff Member

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    Titan6,

    No problem, everyone makes mistakes.

    Mot45acp,

    I agree. The freezer treatment on Butterfingers and Zagnuts are superb. Might have to go to the store and get some now.
     
  9. Thin Black Line

    Thin Black Line Member

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    +1 with an 8 on the side.
     
  10. ilbob

    ilbob Member

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    Having impartial witnesses present (such as TV cameras) will hopefully restrain the baser urges of the LE personnel involved in the inevitable attack on these people's home.

    In the end, they are either going to jail or six feet under. Government cannot allow non-payment of taxes, or the whole Ponzi scheme collapses sooner rather than later.

    These people are fairly old, and maybe they have decided they do not want to live out their lives in prison. Hopefully, they do not take any innocent lives with them.
     
  11. Thin Black Line

    Thin Black Line Member

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    If I was in their shoes, I would be concerned about the younger Gonzalez who is with them.
     
  12. JohnBT

    JohnBT Member

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    "Hopefully, they do not take any innocent lives with them."

    Hopefully they stop their foolish hobby and quit wasting the taxpayers' money.

    John
     
  13. Tim James

    Tim James Member

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    I did a search for "onion" and didn't come up with anything in this thread. Did everyone catch The Onion's take on this? http://www.theonion.com/content/amvo/couple_in_fed_standoff

    "This standoff would all be worth it if, when Ed Brown was asked for his 1099, he replied 'Here's my 1099,' and then drew a gun." Hehe. Uh, I hope we can all laugh about this when it's over.. :uhoh:
     
  14. HiroProX

    HiroProX Member

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    I guess I'm probably one of the few on THR who thinks Teddy was statist jackaninny. But then I am a form of anarchist.

    Though admittedly I think much less of his younger cousin, the american Il Duce. :barf:
     
  15. HerrWolfe

    HerrWolfe Member

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    Remember the bounty hunter? Wonder how much they would pay to bring him in!
     
  16. Don Gwinn

    Don Gwinn Moderator Emeritus

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    Boba Fett?
     
  17. Tim James

    Tim James Member

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    Completely off-topic TR/idealism rant :)

    Just caught the TR discussion. He was the topic of discussion at another forum recently and I had to do some Wikipedia reading about him because I forgot most of what he did and said. I don't know much about his views on guns. Anyone have some info?

    As far as his speech, I was reflecting on this recently: it's telling that the people who rail against idealists are often firmly in the government-can-help camp. They also seem to be short-term pragmatists who don't consider dynamics and unintended consequences, which leads to even further need for government "help." In addition, they seem to pervert ideals and use them for their own gain, such as the "freedom" to shop at a mom-and-pop store that can't compete with a Wal-Mart. They hold a somewhat inventive and quirky view of "rights" and constantly talk up the boogeymen of "market failures."

    The anti-idealist vein seems to be firmly rooted in skepticism, which is usually great stuff. Unfortunately, there seems to be a huge heaping of cynicism in there too, especially among smart individuals in the Internet age who think they know a better way to make things work, or feel like they're smart because they can poke a few holes in ideals. It is quite humorous how dogmatic all sides can be, even the skeptics. The guy at the "Critiques of Libertarianism" site reminds me of this. (Great site by the way for a reality check, even if I don't agree with his personal politics.)

    The other thing I noticed is that the anti-idealist who fashions himself as practical and "in between radical individualism and socialism" is usually on a straight but incremental path toward statism. There is never any thought of solving problems by reducing government influence. There is no consideration of waste reduction, hand-holding reduction, or reducing anything in the state that might unintentionally and indirectly cause human calamities such as crime, poverty, etc. In our natural desire for dichotomies and tribal camps we can root for, that causes a backlash toward extreme individualism.

    What's amazing is that so few can tolerate a state but strive to reduce it as much as possible. In fact, I didn't even know the word minarchist existed until the other day. I think debating whether the EPA should exist is stupid; why not reduce it (and the rest of the government) by 50% to use those resources elsewhere (private industry might be a good place ;)) and see what happens? At that point, we can decide whether to throw it out completely. Libertarians should realize that a few things must be done before the lights are turned out overnight, and their antagonists should consider that pragmatism often isn't.

    Anyway, sorry to side-track everyone, but that TR speech really got my mind working and seemed much more interesting than this Ed Brown noise. I'll leave you with my favorite quote from the speech:

    "Moreover, the preacher of ideals must remember how sorry and contemptible is the figure which he will cut, how great the damage that he will do, if he does not himself, in his own life, strive measurably to realize the ideals that he preaches for others." -- T. Roosevelt

    I focused on the qualifer, "in his own life," and read that to mean: get off the damn Internet, forget power and politics, go take a friend to the gun range, get some exercise, be nice to your wife, help out your elderly neighbor, and make your personal world a better place before trying to fix the rest of it -- through radical anything, even pragmatism.
     
  18. Correia

    Correia Moderator Emeritus

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    First I have to say that this is one of the cleanest L&P threads I've seen in a long time. With posters on diametrically opposite sides of the argument, and (mostly) everybody has remained sane and intelligent. Way to go, guys.

    Speaking as an accountant, I don't know if it was valid or not. All I know is that the tax system is broken now. Take the same set of facts for a family of five, with some investments, some property, itemized deductions, some charity giving, pretty basic stuff, and give those numbers to a hundred tax preperation professionals, and you will get 100 different responses.

    Then an IRS auditor can pick any one of them, and destroy you. Right, wrong? It don't matter. With 40,000 pages of tax code, who can say.

    Yep, loads of fun.

    Here is one question.

    If the 5th Amendment protects you from self incrimination, why is it that I can be punished for something that I submit on my tax forms? Yet, if I don't file my taxes (on the grounds that they may incriminate me) I go to jail. :)

    And Butterfinger Crisps. Damn those are good.
     
  19. Matt King

    Matt King Member

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    The best candy bar ever is a refrigerated Milky Way. Mmm. . . with all this talk of candy, I'm feeling mighty hungry!~:p
     
  20. Brainstem

    Brainstem member

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    If you don't write anything untrue on the form, they can't prosecute you for perjury and filing a false claim. If you lie, it can be used against you. Failing to file a tax return can get you into hot water, but failing to file doesn't carry the perjury and false reporting charge too.
     
  21. Geronimo45

    Geronimo45 Member

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    I seem to remember a Supreme Court decision in the 30s on that exact issue. The 'reason' for income tax wasn't to tax us, of course - it was so we could get rid of Al Capone. For the children.
     
  22. Sage of Seattle

    Sage of Seattle Member

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    Now, don't anyone give me a boot to the head, but I've understood that one waives his/her 5th Amendment protections based on the voluntary nature of the income tax. But all of my reading on the subejct is from a non-professional viewpoint; I remember some IRS pamphlets which crow about how wonderful the voluntary tax codes are, yadda yadda. I haven't read the so-called tax-protester books in years, so I'm fairly certain it's all out of date.



    oops,
    ETA: Just plain ole' Hersey's Kisses are my current fave, though as was mentioned upthread, the original Whatchamacallit was completely kick a$$.
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2007
  23. DMF

    DMF Member

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    That's some of the most circular logic ever.

    The 5th Amendment protects you from being compelled to provide testimony that you committed a crime.

    There is a requirement to file taxes. You are required to tell the truth on the tax forms. If the government accuses you of lying on those forms they must prove it to a jury of your peers beyond a reasonable doubt if they want to convict you of criminal charges. However, the government cannot compel you to provide testimony in that case. Hence you are protected by the 5th Amendment. The requirement to file the return is not compelling you to provide incriminating testimony.
     
  24. DMF

    DMF Member

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    Oh that was hilarious. Apparently the idiots claiming the federal government can't enforce federal law in that state without filing notice with the governor haven't read the Constitution, particularly Article VI, specifically the Supremacy Clause. Either that or the guy in the video is actually our very own LAK.

    :neener::evil:;)
     
  25. Sage of Seattle

    Sage of Seattle Member

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    Yes, it is. If the information, whether false or mistaken, I put down on my tax return is used against me in a court of law, then I just incriminated myself. Filing a tax return is required. Therefore, I am required to essentially waive my 5th Amendment rights.

    That's why they do the song and dance saying the filing a tax return is voluntary, though it isn't. Or maybe that argument is no longer used, I don't know.

    Let's say I file a tax return but I made a mistake on my deductions. The government says I made a mistake and now I have to prove my deductions or else they'll throw me in jail. The government takes my tax return as prima facie evidence that I committed a crime of tax evasion or whatever.
     
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