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Tax stamp Class III for self defense?

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by Outlaws, Aug 11, 2006.

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  1. Outlaws

    Outlaws Member

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    If I get manage to get the tax stamp deal for a class 3 item like a supressor or even a full auto firearm, am I then allowed to apply that for use in home defense and/or my CCW?
     
  2. brickeyee

    brickeyee Member

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    Only if you want to loose possession for a prolonged period after using it.
    Even if you just shoot without killing or wounding anyone, expect the gun to be confiscated.
    If you wound or kill someone it will be even longer.
    An MG or SMG is probably overkill. If you have time to get it out, just use a carbine.
    If you hit the target with almost any decent center fire rifle, game over in short order.
     
  3. Outlaws

    Outlaws Member

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    Well see shortbarrel shotgun won't cost what a SMG would cost. The SMG if I ever bought one would be for fun/SHTF/collectable.

    I am more concerned about the suppressor. I realize they get taken away and I mgiht not get it back, but I was wondering if that is a violation of the whole deal with the ATF and class 3 weapons/accessories....like you agree to not use them for anything outside of sports.

    I want the suppressor as a nice present for my ears if I ever have to shoot someone in my house. If they take it then fine....I jsut want to know I can buy another one or at the worst, I won't be violating a law and get 10 years in prison.
     
  4. entropy

    entropy Member

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    I doubt a Tax stamp would be very effective for self-defense. ;) As for using the weapon itself, I agree with brickeyee. Even if you didn't fire it, expect it to be confiscated anyways.

    [Chief Wiggums voice] Yeah, we'll need to do some 'testing and evaluation' on this....[/Chief Wiggums voice] ;)
     
  5. sacp81170a

    sacp81170a Member

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    Oh man, you've opened a *huge* can of worms. I'm going to predict the consensus here will be that, certainly, you *can*, in the same way that you *can* build a moat around your house and fill it with alligators. It may be physically possible, depending on what state you live in, but it probably ain't a good idea.

    First off, for home defense, if you have an NFA weapon, what does that gain you over a good ol' 12 gauge, given the typical distances in home encounters? (Think 35 feet or less.) A suppressor is of no tactical significance unless you're being invaded by a gang of zombies and you need to cap them all before they find you and eat you.

    As far as CCW, my state specifically prohibits use of NFA weapons for CCW, so check the laws. The only one I can think of that you might consider for this application would be the Glock 18 or something similar to a Czech Skorpion. Think about the implications, though. You haul out your trusty Glock 18 and send 17 rounds of 9mm flying at random with a couple of squeezes of the trigger. Where did they go? Most likely *not* all of them went into the bad guy, and remember, each one has a million dollar lawsuit attached.

    If you *are* involved in a shoot, your $25,000+ NFA weapon will be seized as evidence. I'd much rather have 'em sieze my $600 carry piece, thank you very much.

    I won't even get into the legal implications of using an NFA weapon for self defense and how you're going to explain to a jury of your peers that you're basically a peaceful, law abiding citizen who just happens to carry a full auto for "just in case".

    Not no, but hell no. :uhoh:
     
  6. Outlaws

    Outlaws Member

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    A suppressor is of value in that guns are loud. And in an enclosed environment they would be nice IMO.
     
  7. sacp81170a

    sacp81170a Member

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    Posted before I saw all the replies. I understand what you're saying about a suppressor in your house, but I'd rather spend $150 on a pair of electronic earmuffs. The advantage is that they actually amplify sounds, so you'll be able to hear better while cutting out the noise of gunfire. I keep a pair by the bedside just for that purpose. Plus, they don't require that $200 stamp and you can use 'em with *all* the firearms you own with no modification.

    SOSG sounds like a good idea, but then you have that problem of accuracy. Still don't get you much over a standard HD shotgun, just harder to defend in court.

    YMMV, but I'd find another way.
     
  8. deadin

    deadin Member

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    Hearing damage is usually caused by prolonged exposure to loud noise. Are you planning on shooting someone in your house on a daily or weekly basis? :what:

    Dean
     
  9. Outlaws

    Outlaws Member

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    I already have a permant ring in my ears from too many rock shows. :evil:

    But I assume not many of us here have ever fired a gun indoors, but sound is amplified a ton.
     
  10. sacp81170a

    sacp81170a Member

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    In my case, you assume incorrectly. I have fired in shoot houses and real houses on a number of occasions, even had flash bangs go off in the next room without hearing protection. Sure, it's loud and it harms your hearing. That's one of the reasons I appreciate the electronic muffs so much. I have some hearing loss from training and operations in the military, but not so much that I have any trouble to speak of. I really wouldn't worry about shooting even a 12 gauge in my house. I'm used to it so it wouldn't shock me like it would an untrained individual, and since I don't expect to do it very often I'm not too concerned with any additional damage to my hearing.

    I agree, though, preserve what hearing you can. $150 is cheaper than $200, and I never heard of anybody seizing electronic earmuffs as evidence. :D
     
  11. ctdonath

    ctdonath Member

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    There is nothing legally wrong with using Class III items for self-defense. The only iffy bits are greater scrutiy afterwards - and C3 items may help you have an afterwards to participate in the scrutiny thereof.

    Any gun used for defense will probably be confiscated. C3 items may take a bit longer to return.
    Any shoot will be scrutinized. C3 items may elicit greater scrutiny. A machinegun will elicit much more scrutiny, but scrutiny only goes so far - and since machineguns are so friggin' expensive, you're not likely to use one anyway.

    I think, insofar as they're affordable, Class III items make for good defensive tools. A short barreled rifle with a silencer is about the ideal balance for size, power, and noise - considering use indoors in confined echoy spaces.

    The benefit of C3 items over, say, a regular shotgun is kinda marginal. What's most important is having SOMETHING usable, then pursuing refinements.
     
  12. MachIVshooter

    MachIVshooter Member

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    I can't imagine a single judge in this country would condone the use of an SMG or SBS as a defensive weapon and you would likely be guilty the moment you walked into the courtroom. The prosecution's arguement will be simple and effective; you used a weapon designed for full on combat and therefore were looking for trouble. In this day and age, a defensive shooting is judged on myriad aspects, not simply whether or not you were in danger of great bodily injury. Believe me, the choice of weapon will come into play and anything more than a standard handgun will land you in hot water.

    I personally try to keep my defensive handguns as non-nasty looking as possible for this very reason. If you carry an evil-looking piece and use it in a defensive shooting, expect it to be part of the case against you.

    Inside your home, whole different story. I still wouldn't want to risk my five-figure NFA weapon being confiscated, though, even if only for a short time. Investigators and evidence handlers are notoriously careless with firearms.

    We all know it is ridiculous that this should even be a factor in our choice of defensive firearms, but it is reality.
     
  13. Zrex

    Zrex Member

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    I dunno, I enjoy being able to hear before, durring and after shooting. If you have in earplugs, or you deafen yourself, how are you supposed to hear what the bad guy is up to?

    Ever shot a suppressed firearm?
     
  14. wdlsguy

    wdlsguy Member

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    I guess I'm going to go against the flow on this one. I alternate between an 11.5" AR-15 and an 18" Remington 870 for bedroom duty. The 870 is going to be 14" when the paperwork is complete.

    I look at it this way: a good shoot is a good shoot, a bad shoot is a bad shoot. If someone has broken into my home and has gotten as far as our bedroom, it's pretty much guaranteed to be a good shoot. Using an NFA weapon doesn't turn a good shoot into a bad shoot.

    Using a suppressor would help to save my wife's hearing as well as my own if I ever needed to fire the AR inside our bedroom.
     
  15. armoredman

    armoredman Member

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    Well, I did know a guy who carried a MAC in an SMZ rig, with 2, 32 round mags offside. He ran a gunshop, and liked the extra firepower it gave him. Little buzzsaw was actually one of the few accurate ones.
    BTW, AZ doesn't care what you carry with you CCW permit. Legal NFA is allowed...now, how do I get that German 7.5cm AT gun under this coat...
     
  16. CleverNickname

    CleverNickname Member

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    I keep my 870 SBS in my safe, cruiser-ready. That's probably the long gun I'd go to first. If we're going to choose defensive weapons by the impression other people might get, I'd argue that to the average person an AR15 looks more evil than this:

    [​IMG]

    My machine guns would be the last guns I'd go to. They're strictly toys.
     
  17. carpettbaggerr

    carpettbaggerr Member

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    Last edited: Aug 12, 2006
  18. No_Brakes23

    No_Brakes23 Member

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    Uh, I put one 7 round magazine through my 1911 without hearing protection, and I couldn't hear right for a week or two later. Indoors would be even worse, I imagine.
     
  19. zoom6zoom

    zoom6zoom Member

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    You imagine correctly. I had the misfortune to be standing next to a moron who had a .45ACP AD in a living-room sized room. It was about a week before the ringing in my ears went away. Luckily the only other damage was a hole in the screen window and the slug buried itself in a fencepost just outside.
     
  20. soutex50

    soutex50 Member

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    I have a Bushmaster Carbon Ar-15 pistol for H/D along with my trusty Mossy 500 for heavy duty use....where I live, you don't worry about burglars and prowlers coming into your house, oh no, i'm talking bout fully decked pseudo-cops (home invasions) and kidnapper crews. they usually carry ak's

    Being LE, we're usually targets for this Bozos who want to get back at us for applying the respective heat they deserve.

    My department issued me a DPMS Kitty-Kat three round burst SBR (7.5" barrel) for SWAT that's also allowed for take home. You bet your sweet puttuty I'm going to use it if need be.
     
  21. Hkmp5sd

    Hkmp5sd Member

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    I think a suppressors/SBS/SBR and/or full autos have a place in HD. That said, I'd never risk one of my many thousand dollar machineguns. Go with the assumption you will never see the weapon again and base your decision on that. A 12" 870 vs. an 18". A 11.5" AR vs. a 16" AR. Not a lot of difference other than the tax stamp.

    I would love to see more people using suppressed weapons in HD situtations. Perhaps we could get rid of the the "for assassins only" belief and finally remove them from the NFA. Too bad OSHA doesn't consider them a protective device.
     
  22. Kenneth Lew

    Kenneth Lew Member

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    If I get manage to get the tax stamp deal for a class 3 item like a supressor or even a full auto firearm, am I then allowed to apply that for use in home defense and/or my CCW?

    From several different attorneys (who have actually represented self-defense shootings including one that had a client that used an IMI Uzi) in my area, using a NFA item for home defense and conceal carry is not smart, actually its stupid.
     
  23. chrisbob

    chrisbob Member

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    In a h/d situation that requires lethal force you may not have the time for earmuffs. You would obviously be more concerned for you and your families safety. This being said I would go w/ a 20 or 12 gauge semi auto. In a real case scenario you won't have time to aim, make decisions, or think about what happens later. Unless you have a small army after you or pissed off the wrong people and they call you to say they are coming you probably won't have any notice. Keep the full auto in the safe and the full 870 express 12 gauge by the night stand.:evil:

    That is only my opion.
     
  24. symr00

    symr00 Member

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    I shot my handgun in my home w/o hearing protection and I did not hear the shot nor did my wife. I believe it was the adrenaline that blocked it. I have spoken to quite a few people who have shot their firearms in self defense and they, too did not hear the shot/s. Personally I don't think you would run into any trouble using a suppressor in a H/D gun since it's only a noise suppressor. There would just be the matter of having it and the weapon it was mounted to being held up during the investigation.
     
  25. strambo

    strambo Member

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    Be guilty of what? Self defense is an affirmative defense to homicide charges, period. Tools don't matter. How could you be looking for trouble sitting in your home? Worse case scenario is perhaps a negligence charge for any stray bullet damage and a manslaughter charge if you hit an innocent by mistake layin' down suppressive fire. I understand a sleazy prosecutor could try and spin stuff...but the law is the same whether you use an M60 or an M9bayonet.

    I think a suppressor is a great idea, worse case you lose it for awhile, not as big a deal as losing a $12K subgun. I was thinking about suppressors for HD the other day. I have an almost 2yo daughter, it would be good to protect her hearing too, can't slap earmuffs on her.
     
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