Tell me about Golden Sabre

[Beaux Nehr]

I've recently become pretty interested in buying Golden Sabres when I found that I can buy the bullets for reloading for very cheap near my brother's house.
What are the pros and cons of this bullet design?

 

[usmc1371]

They seem to hold up good and open up nice. I reloaded them in 9mm and shot them at all kinds of target media and over all they preformed good. When they expand they have nice sharp edges and look very mean.

 

[Manco]

I'm sure there are plenty of existing posts on this subject for you to search and read, but to give you an up-to-date summary, for a long time Golden Saber was THE premiere, state-of-the-art JHP (jacketed hollow-point) bullet design used by innumerable law enforcement agencies, and it still carries an excellent reputation and a lot of anecdotal "street credibility" to the present, although tests have shown that a number of more recent designs have surpassed its performance in key areas such as reliable expansion through clothing. One other disadvantage it has always had is a tendency for its jacket to separate, which more modern bullets have definitely improved upon. Although the Golden Saber is still a decent bullet that will get the job done like it always has, I think it's pretty much in last place now among the premium bullets offered by the major ammunition manufacturers. While Remington appears to have updated its design in their new line of self-defense ammunition, nobody seems to be very familiar with it just yet.

With regard to components for reloading, most of the Golden Saber's competition is currently unavailable to the public, with the notable exception of Speer's Gold Dot (Barnes offers its all-copper hollow-points in some hunting calibers but apparently not all self-defense calibers). Of the two, Gold Dot generally performs better in tests, and has built up quite a reputation of its own in law enforcement, although many agencies still use Golden Saber and deem it effective.

 

[NG VI]

They also have a pretty universal reputation for accuracy, along with the Hornady XTP. Probably nothing you would notice in a defensive shooting style, but taking it slow, if you are a good shooter you might see slightly smaller groups with them.

I like them, have carried them before and would in the future as well. But I like Federal's HST better, and Gold Dot can generally be found as easily or more easily at lower prices.

 

[Madcap_Magician]

The new ones also have bonded cores. The old Golden Saber design was prone to jacket separations, but in theory the new bonded bullets have solved that.

 

[03Shadowbob]

When a certain round will not chamber in one ofmy guns, I always try the GS and it always works. I have been using them for years though the Winchester SXT Bonded 230gr 45 round performs great also for me.

 

[Claude Clay]

GS are so good that i use them in 9mm, 40 & 45acp.

they relailby(spell chuck died;again) expand out of my p-11, p239/40 and defender

 

[hammerklavier]

Their rounded profile makes them load easier, for guns that choke on pointy bullets.

 

[veyec]

The new ones also have bonded cores. The old Golden Saber design was prone to jacket separations, but in theory the new bonded bullets have solved that.

Can someone explain to me why jacket seperation is a bad thing? If I was to shoot a BG, wouldn't having a bunch of pieces floating around inside him be a good thing?

 

[M&PVolk]

You can get bonded core GS's these days. They are my preferred defensive round in all my calibers, save .38 special.

 

[Manco]

Can someone explain to me why jacket seperation is a bad thing? If I was to shoot a BG, wouldn't having a bunch of pieces floating around inside him be a good thing?

Maybe sometimes, depending on luck, but the general idea is that bullets should perform as they were designed to rather than in less predictable ways. That would be a good thing, although as you brought up, arguably fragmentation can do just as much damage. Be that as it may, the goal is to achieve a specified amount of penetration with a specified amount of expansion, and keeping the jacket together with the core is critical because either piece alone, in expanded form, is not going to penetrate as deeply as the combined mass would have. Since penetration is regarded by most authorities as more critical than expansion, jacket separation is therefore a bad thing.

 

[grimjaw]

As factory loaded ammunition, it's fairly low flash even from short barrels.

jm

 

[otblue]

As factory loaded ammunition, it's fairly low flash even from short barrels.

jm

I didn't find that with a batch I tried lately in 9mm. Quite the opposite, not only quite a flash but sparks of burning powder granules shooting out to the side. Haven't seen that before in factory ammunition, quite disconcerting.
Perhaps a bad batch or poor storage in transport or something but I am using it up for practice only now.

 

[grimjaw]

Well, I fire it from a Kahr MK9, very short barrel. The Blazer Brass 115gr practice ammo I use out of the same gun lights up the range like a fireball, but I don't notice anything other than recoil and noise using 147gr Golden Saber. I don't use the +P stuff, so maybe that's the difference.

 

[hammerklavier]

veyec
Can someone explain to me why jacket seperation is a bad thing? If I was to shoot a BG, wouldn't having a bunch of pieces floating around inside him be a good thing?

The jacket provides a sharper cutting edge, but must be backed up by the lead mass for penetration.

 

[wyocarp]

Originally Posted by veyec
Can someone explain to me why jacket seperation is a bad thing? If I was to shoot a BG, wouldn't having a bunch of pieces floating around inside him be a good thing?

Maybe sometimes, depending on luck, but the general idea is that bullets should perform as they were designed to rather than in less predictable ways. That would be a good thing, although as you brought up, arguably fragmentation can do just as much damage. Be that as it may, the goal is to achieve a specified amount of penetration with a specified amount of expansion, and keeping the jacket together with the core is critical because either piece alone, in expanded form, is not going to penetrate as deeply as the combined mass would have. Since penetration is regarded by most authorities as more critical than expansion, jacket separation is therefore a bad thing.

And there is the rub. How much penetration does one need when shooting a person? Now, if you are a police officer and the possibility of needing to shoot through windshields is your concern, I might agree with the need for bonded bullets for people.

 

[Manco]

And there is the rub. How much penetration does one need when shooting a person?

I prefer at least 15" of penetration (through clothing) in order to reach the vital structures along the spinal column from a frontal center-of-mass hit on a large and/or obese two-legged target. If all JHPs expanded so much that they fell well short of this goal, then I'd probably switch to FMJ. Overpenetration should always be assumed when taking a shot since one also has to account for potential misses the same way.

Now, if you are a police officer and the possibility of needing to shoot through windshields is your concern, I might agree with the need for bonded bullets for people.

Jackets can separate and have done so without having hit hard intervening barriers first. One might also need to penetrate furniture, for example, or a shoulder blade.

 

[NG VI]

Yeah I have also seen those reddish sparks out of a four.25 inch USP .40 at early dusk.

Not much flash, just some sparkles.

 

[RyanM]

Golden Sabers tend to only shed their jackets after over 12 inches of penetration, so it's a non-issue if you ask me.

GSes are one of the best deals out there if you load your own. They perform much better than anything in their price range, on par with bullets that cost over twice as much. The loaded ammo isn't such a hot deal compared to Winchester cop-only SXTs if you can find a source for them, though.

 

[KBintheSLC]

The new ones also have bonded cores. The old Golden Saber design was prone to jacket separations, but in theory the new bonded bullets have solved that.

This is true. I have tested several different loads with the "old" Golden Saber bullet. It holds together and expands really well at moderate velocities... like .38 spl +P and 9mm/40. However, it consistently shed its jacket on hotter loads... like 10mm Auto. I have not tried the bonded GS yet. Overall, I think it's a great defensive bullet that expands well at a pretty wide range of velocities. If you are loading .38, 9mm, 40, and other "mild" loads, the old design works fine. If you are loading .357 Mag, 357 Sig, 10mm and other fireball loads, I would try to find some bonded GS bullets.

You can see the test results through the link in my signature below.

 

[Supertac45]

They are an excellent choice.

 

[Doogledog]

Does anybody use the 185 gr in .45? I bought a bulk of 500 and haven't tried them out yet. I plan on shooting them through a SA champion. I thought the lighter weight would be better for the shorter barrel.

 

[ElToro]

im pretty sure the FBI still issues golden saber.

although you probly cant go worng with any premium hollow point currently available.
GS, HST, RangerT, Hornady TAP. Gold Dot etc. you can probly find a department or agency using any of the above.

just make sure it works in YOUR gun.

 

[Manco]

im pretty sure the FBI still issues golden saber.

The FBI switched to the latest version of Ranger Bonded a couple of years ago; they tend to change their ammunition more frequently than most agencies, I believe. Actually, the bullet design was tweaked to their terminal ballistics standards, and then it replaced the previous Ranger Bonded design. The same bullet is also used in the civilian-market Winchester PDX1.

although you probly cant go worng with any premium hollow point currently available.
GS, HST, RangerT, Hornady TAP. Gold Dot etc. you can probly find a department or agency using any of the above.

just make sure it works in YOUR gun.

They're all very good. However, when using factory loads, I would suggest, if it makes sense to everybody, going by the published terminal ballistics (or independent tests for comparative data) rather than just a brand name because each individual load is a different design and they don't always have the same relative performance you'd expect. For example, the 180-grain HST in .40 S&W suits me just fine based on tests I've seen, but its 9mm counterpart, the 147-grain load, trades too much penetration for expansion, in my opinion (VERY impressive expansion, but that's just one part of the equation, not the end goal).

 

[Marlin 45 carbine]

I've loaded tham in .380acp, 9mmP(124gr) and .45acp (185gr) with tighter groups from slow, rested fireing than any other more costly slug.
crude testing in wet, stacked cardboard revealed great expansion and sometimes jacket seperation near the end of travel with the hot loads of 9mm.