Tell me about H&K Pistols

[Sergei Mosin]

Big box chain store. At that price, I didn't waste any time hauling out my wallet; I had paid $800 for my USP 45 several months before. They still have another one on the shelf for the same price, too.

 

[Sergei Mosin]

The conditions of readiness as laid down by Col. Cooper were specific to the 1911. They can be extended to any single-action pistol with a manual safety, such as the Browning Hi Power, certain variants of the CZ 75, the USP V1, etc, but the terminology doesn't work with pistols not equipped with manual safeties. By definition, a Glock cannot be in Condition One, because it doesn't have a thumb safety.

 

[MachIVshooter]

The conditions of readiness as laid down by Col. Cooper were specific to the 1911. They can be extended to any single-action pistol with a manual safety, such as the Browning Hi Power, certain variants of the CZ 75, the USP V1, etc, but the terminology doesn't work with pistols not equipped with manual safeties. By definition, a Glock cannot be in Condition One, because it doesn't have a thumb safety.

Yes, that is correct if you apply an old testament type of interpretation. As amended to incorporate more modern designs, condition one applies to any firearm that has a round chambered with safety engaged, be it a passive or active safety. In the case of a Glock, M&P or many other pistols with no manual safety, a DAO handgun or a TDA pistol with a decocker/decocker safety, they really can't be in condition zero, since their action does not actually have them cocked. Hence they are condition one when a round is chambered. Likewise, a DA revolver is condition one with the hammer down, condition zero with the hammer cocked.

If we're going to use conditions of readiness outside of discussing the 1911 or other single action only semi-automatics, then we have to apply the modern adaptation/interpretation.

 

[Phaedrus/69]

Phaedrus, condition one simply means ready to fire without having to manipulate a bolt handle, slide or hammer. A striker fired pistol is C1 when a round is chambered, as is any SA, DAO or TDA gun. Condition one does not require an external hammer.

That definition is fine for you, but to me it lacks the "locked" half of cocked and locked. We can quibble over which definition is technically accurate but the fact is that swiping off the safety of a 1911 gives you a smooth crisp 4lb SA trigger pull- that ain't gonna happen with a Glock. I guess I'll second Sergei Mosin's "Old Testament" definition as it came from the God of SA autos, Col. Cooper. Again, carry what you want but you can't seriously suggest that a Glock behaves like a SA auto, mechanically or in actual use. Calling the trigger a safety seems like something Feinstein would have come up with, and at any rate it's like attaching your brake pedal to the top of the gas pedal IMOHO.

Converting to an "UMP" is an involved process. It won't be a real UMP, just a very close civilian-legal copy. First you replace the lower; I will get an FBI if I can find it, a Navy if I can't. Then a rear stock block, which lets you use the folding stock. Vent cuts need to me made and a few parts added to comply with 922r. Then just pop in some UMP mags and let 'er rip!

 

[Phaedrus/69]

I would prefer the USP with a hammer. I will not own a striker fired pistol (just my preference). I like Sigs just as well as most HK's. I think Sigs and HK's are worth every dime, but that is my choice and the fact is we all are just basing opinions. The facts are they are just as well built as any mass produced firearm, and better than some. Some hate Hk because they cost more, but they actually just went up with inflation. I paid $500 for my first USP in 2001. Others just hate them... The fact is until you see the pride they take in manufacturing these, it is surprising. I was surprised at the low amount made and the tests that they put each model through. When I saw the 416 with 120,000 rounds through it, and it still shooting within military specs, it is impressive. The barrels really impress me.

They are well made! A while back one of the big ammo companies sent back a USP to be inspected by HK. They used it to test ammo and wanted routine maintainence done. Aside from small springs that wear out on every gun the firearm was in terrific shape. Turns out there were over 1/4 million rounds put through that gun! I'm not saying only HKs can do that but anyone worried about HK durability can rest easy.

 

[MachIVshooter]

We can quibble over which definition is technically accurate but the fact is that swiping off the safety of a 1911 gives you a smooth crisp 4lb SA trigger pull- that ain't gonna happen with a Glock.

Ain't gonna happen with a stock HK, either. Modified guns, all bets are off. Glock trigger can be pretty darn crisp & light.

you can't seriously suggest that a Glock behaves like a SA auto, mechanically or in actual use.

Never said it was. Closer to a DAO, but lacking the scond strike capability means it cannot use that definition either. Glock's description of "safe action" works fine, though.

For the record, I'm no Glockophile, either. I have one, and only so I don't beat up my nicer 10mm guns in the woods. I have no particular love for the thing, and would have much preferred the M&P or FNP if they came in 10mm.

Calling the trigger a safety seems like something Feinstein would have come up with, and at any rate it's like attaching your brake pedal to the top of the gas pedal IMOHO.

Huh? I never said anything about the trigger safety, and the latter portion of that comment is way out of left field. The passive system in the Glock is not having the striker fully cocked until the trigger is pulled.

But to use your own analogy, it would be more like requiring the accelerator pedal be tilted prior to depressing.

 

[Phaedrus/69]

You wanna put your trigger gauge on my USP45 Tactical? It's not much if any heavier than a 1911. Of course, 1911 triggers vary quite a bit from merely good to spectacular. In any event every SA trigger pull I've ever felt on every SA/DA gun I have personal experience with is lighter and better than a Glock trigger.

I don't know what your motivation is but you seem to be looking for an argument where there is none. I think we both understand that a Glock can't be carried cocked and locked. Maybe you're a youngster or a big fan studying the evolution of language but I don't you'll find many gun people hewing to your innovative, novel new definition of Condition One, either. But if you must cling to it, so be it. Let me try to state it in way that will take you more than 5 minutes to deconstruct and distort; if you truly can't understand this it's probably because you simple want to contradict:

"I am a fan of guns with an hammer and external safety lever that can be engaged while the hammer is cocked."

There. If we're going to have a pointless debate let's at least be clear what we're debating. Now compare the USP, P30S and HK45C to the other guns that can be carried in that manner. You can argue that an automatic transmission is better than a manual, but you don't get a vote in my preference for one over the other.

For the record, I've not said one critical word about guns that don't have hammers and/or are striker fired. If you like them, that's awesome for you and the world is your oyster.

But if you don't particularly care for that type of sidearm there aren't nearly so many choices.

 

[Phaedrus/69]

BTW, to address the first line of the OP, I'm equally amazed at how 1911s (which I love) get a pass on price! Really, what can, say, a new Sig 1911 do for $1100 that a USP45 can't do for $900? The HK is at least as accurate, holds more rounds and if I had to bet my life on a gun digesting 1000 rounds right out of the box I'm sure as hell gonna pick the HK over the 1911!

It seems to be almost an article of faith that a good 1911 is gonna cost a grand, and with a few exceptions it would be foolish to spend less than that (eg a Rock is probably going to be okay for cheap, and STI Spartan will run well, etc). It's also pretty much a given that the 1911 you buy for a grand will need some work (!).

 

[MachIVshooter]

In any event every SA trigger pull I've ever felt on every SA/DA gun I have personal experience with is lighter and better than a Glock trigger.

I can list a whole lot that don't, including many that I own. TDA guns on the whole have relatively mushy, undefined triggers as they come from factory. Most of them also don't break below 5 lbs.

Maybe you're a youngster or a big fan studying the evolution of language but I don't you'll find many gun people hewing to your innovative, novel new definition of Condition One, either.

Well, let's put up a poll and see, shall we? It's not my " innovative, novel new definition of Condition One" anyway. And let's not resort to insulting other members by way of accusing them of lacking experience for their age. You have no idea who I am, how old I am, or what my experience level is, so don't presume or insinuate. I have not met you with such discourtesy.

As for the remainder of your post, my preference is single action or TDA with decocker safeties. HK does offer the latter, but they don't offer it in a package I particularly care for or at a price point that represents value to me. I own a lot of guns that cost more than a USP, HK45, P2000, etc., so it's not being cheap. I simply remain unconvinced that the HK offers anything to justify its price over comparable models. I gather to some the aesthetics, exclusivity or ergonomics (???) are worth a $400 premium. Not for me, though, and I'm definitely in the majority if we judge by sales figures.

 

[AKElroy]

You can buy a lot of really solid and reliable handguns these days. Many makers will provide a pistol that will do all you could ask of it for as long as you can keep pulling the trigger.

H&K's not different in that regard. No, their materials aren't far ahead of any of the other major players. No, their tolerances aren't dramatically tighter (without sacrificing reliability somehow). No, they won't run 100,000 rounds longer than their competition without parts breakage.

+1. I think one would have a hard time finding significant differences in quality between the HK and Glock, SA XD's and XDm's, sig 2022, S&W M&P, CZ Phantom, FN FNH, et al. Try them, shoot them if you can, choose what fits, what you can find parts for, and what you can find quality carry gear for. Any other considerations are due to personal preference and status IMO. It may well be that the HK rises to the top, but I certainly would not assume that without looking at less expensive, and IMO, equally quality options.

 

[Big Dave]

This thread seems to have evolved into an 'are HK's worth the premium?' question. One point that rarely gets mentioned, is that if you sell an HK or a Glock, you'll probably lose about the same amount. So essentially, you can 'rent' them for about the same amount.

 

[Phaedrus/69]

I like the poll, Mach4! I'll be curious to watch it unfold. As far at the OP, I will admit that HK fanboy though I am, they certainly aren't for everyone...evidences by sales, as you point out. The way they're made and marketed is obvious that they aren't meant to be. I'm fine with that. There are lots of great guns out there, and the world got by just fine before HK was founded over 50 years ago. Hell, I got by just fine for along time before Gaston decided to put together his Glock committee, too.

The thing that baffles me is why they're bashed for being 25%-40% higher priced than, to pull one out at random, a Glock. By all means, if cost is your primary criteria then buy a cheaper gun. I know some don't like the brand comparisons but look at Rolex vs Timex. A Rolex is 100X the cost of a Timex but I suspect it's no more accurate...maybe less accurate. Stolychnia is 50% than Phillips and maybe 85% of people can't tell them apart. But I don't see the pulling of hair and rending of garments over the deal like I see with HK.

Some people buy HKs or Sigs and Audis or BMWs just like some people buy Taurus or Glock and Hondas or Fords. Different people like different things and/or are more cost conscious. I don't see what the big deal is about it.

 

[Phaedrus/69]

+1. I think one would have a hard time finding significant differences in quality between the HK and Glock, SA XD's and XDm's, sig 2022, S&W M&P, CZ Phantom, FN FNH, et al. Try them, shoot them if you can, choose what fits, what you can find parts for, and what you can find quality carry gear for. Any other considerations are due to personal preference and status IMO. It may well be that the HK rises to the top, but I certainly would not assume that without looking at less expensive, and IMO, equally quality options.

I am in agreement. It's hard to make any sweeping statements without actually shooting the gun. Without that it's just baseless speculation. It's hard to know how you'll like something until you try it.

 

[MachIVshooter]

By all means, if cost is your primary criteria then buy a cheaper gun. I know some don't like the brand comparisons but look at Rolex vs Timex. A Rolex is 100X the cost of a Timex but I suspect it's no more accurate...maybe less accurate. Stolychnia is 50% than Phillips and maybe 85% of people can't tell them apart. But I don't see the pulling of hair and rending of garments over the deal like I see with HK.

The gnashing of teeth comes from those of us who are very tired of being told how superior HK guns are with absolutely nothing to back up the statement. If someone wants to spend the extra coin to buy one for whatever reason, that is their business. But trying to convince me that it's better because it "just is" only serves to irritate.

I get paying for quality. I have a very large tool box stuffed full of Snap-On, Matco & Mac tools because Harbor freight or home depot tools are demonstrably lower quality, from fit & finish to durability to the way they fit on fasteners. In this case, as a professional mechanic, it is absolutely worth the premium cost for a wrench that is far less likely to slip and round a fastener and/or bust my knuckle, or just flat out break on me. Do I think some of those tools are a bit over-priced? Yeah, but there's really not a cheaper option that is of the same quality. Craftsman used to be, and I had bought quite a bit of that back in the day. But they're cheap chinese junk nowadays.

Likewise, I'm big into RC, and there's definitely a difference in quality between an HSP/Redcat/Exceed/Himoto kit and a Team Associated/Losi/OFNA/Durango/Xray kit. It is very tangible, from materials & assembly to engine/motor output, servo quality, shocks, and resulting overall performance & durability.

Yet when it comes to HK versus the world, when we're talking about guns that are offered in comparable models by other quality manufacturers, I have yet to find anything that makes the HK superior. Comparing the USP, P30, P2000 and HK45 to the FNP and FNX, I see no advantage to spending another $300 or $400 on the HK. If it is an aesthetic or ergonomic preference, well, then, OK. But performance and durability wise, you're buying nothing with the extra money.

If HK wants to pay their employees better than the competition and use that as justification for increased cost, they have to accept that many people are far less concerned with the happiness of a company's employees than with receiving good value for the money they spend. We regularly see folks right here on this board argue that they won't pay more for US-made products if the cheaper import is just as good because they don't believe in corporate welfare; why should it be any different with HK?

 

[sigarms228]

This thread seems to have evolved into an 'are HK's worth the premium?' question. One point that rarely gets mentioned, is that if you sell an HK or a Glock, you'll probably lose about the same amount. So essentially, you can 'rent' them for about the same amount.

This is very true. Also a savy firearm owner often is able to purchase excellent used firearms at a great price and are able to sell for the same price or more than what they paid if they desire.

 

[CharlieDeltaJuliet]

MachIV, I will agree that most pistols are just as reliable. I will not back down that the Hk 416 is the best AR built. The military pays about $1100-1300 each for their weapons. When I was in Georgia I seen the 416 with 120,000 through it and it was going out for more abuse. I honestly believe their barrels are second to none. The QC is better because their plant is ran by and with employees who care about their products. America quit carving about the time the drive thru was invented. Don't get me wrong there are still great American made firearms, but the differences in the QC is crazy compared to the 40's,50's and 60's. A grand for a USP isn't that much when a Colt 1911 can cost roughly the same.

I do believe some buy them because the name and never understand what Hk is about. How many military contracts they have around the world. And at least some of our very best (DEVGRU) carry one or two HK's. So when you care enough to send the very best.... I truly believe Hk make a firearm that is on par with any other of the BEST military firearm manufacturers.

 

[el Godfather]

416, 417, Mp5, Mp5 sd, Mp7, Ump, 91, 53, g3, etc. If step out of pistol realm then its a no brainer!

 

[MachIVshooter]

416, 417, Mp5, Mp5 sd, Mp7, Ump, 91, 53, g3, etc. If step out of pistol realm then its a no brainer!

Unless, of course, you're not fond of them.

About the only one I'd want is an MP5/10. Many AR platforms I'd buy before the 416, the MP7 does nothing for me, UMP falls into the same category as any other PCC (useless to me), the 91 can't do anything a SASS can't do better, the 53 was pretty much a dead end for a reason, and the G3 is one of the least ergonomic and heavy recoiling 7.62 battle rifles out there (and not an HK design anyway, but one they ripped off from the Spanish CETME)

 

[JDR]

These days, it seems like a used USP (or perhaps a P2000) is the only way to get an H&K product at a reasonable price.

I bought my USP 40 LNIB and it is an excellent firearm and it is a great range gun, I wish I could find a USP 45c, at the condition & near the price of my 40 USP, if it wasn't already a LEM trigger variant, I'd have it converted; this is my idea of a carry gun!

 

[DammitBoy]

I'm looking at an HK USP Elite for $1300 with 3 12 round magazines, is it worth it?

 

[Zaydok Allen]

Do you want it? If so, then it is worth it to you. As Sam1911 stated earlier in the thread, buy the gun, not the name.

 

[DammitBoy]

I tend to buy value over name brand. The three HK's I have owned all performed very well. Still own my favorite.

The Elite is supposed to be the best of the best of the HK line. I might just have to find out if that's true.

 

[usp9]

The Elite is supposed to be the best of the best of the HK line.

The Elite is a very accurate pistol. They are out of production though. If you want one, you may want to seek it sooner rather then later.

Check with CDNN. They were selling the Elite a while ago for $899. A steal at that price.

 

[DammitBoy]

Thanks USP, they still have them at that price! I think I found my Christmas present...

 

[usp9]

Outstanding!

To wet your whistle in the meantime;