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tell me about the 25 auto cartridge?

Discussion in 'Handguns: Autoloaders' started by midland man, Sep 10, 2014.

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  1. The Bushmaster

    The Bushmaster Member

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    You mean my FIE Titan .25 ACP using Fiocchi 35 gr Hornady XTPHP is not a good carry weapon?:rolleyes:

    Oh darnies...Guess I'll just have to keep carrying my Kimber UCC II.:evil:

    ByTheWay...This little thing never misses a lick and is quite accurate at 20 feet and makes a great "boot gun".
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2014
  2. Seven High

    Seven High Member

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    FWIW During WW2 the Nazis issued 25 acp pistols to their soldiers. I do not know if this was by choice or necessity. My FIL took one away from a Nazi in France. He got the holster as well. The pistol was a Unique brand.
     
  3. 4v50 Gary

    4v50 Gary Moderator Staff Member

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    The one advantage the 25 ACP has over the 22 LR is that it is a rimless cartridge. In theory are less feeding issues with rimless.

    That said, I have a Beretta Bobcat 22 LR that has been very reliable and accurate.
     
  4. gtd

    gtd Member

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  5. Combat Engineer

    Combat Engineer Member

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    "tell me about the 25 auto cartridge? "[midland man]

    Was very popular from WW1 to about 1935, the golden age of the .25ACP. Ladies had special purse bags (shaped like a pistol) for them and they were also carried in men's vest pockets. Most maufacturers made one, the best were made by Colt, Mauser, J.P. Sauer & Sohn (not pictured), Steyr (not pictured), and Walther.

    "...so is it good, bad, and will it work when needed? who carrys and uses one? is there a love/hate relationship with this cartridge?? how far is the effective range with 50gr fmj bullet loads etc? " [Ibid]

    Recall way back, .25ACP European pistol competitions... range 25 meters. As for penetration, expect the 2" barrels to defeat one spruce 2x4, the 3" barrels cut deeper, about 1 and a half spruce 2x4s.

    Its a good cartridge, I carry one on rare occasions (prefer a caliber starting with a 4), the bullet is usually a 50 gr fmj, (not a whole lot different than an AR-15 5.56mm bullet (which is of course much faster). Would I want to be hit by a .25ACP at 6 feet or a 5.56mm slug at 600 yards? Probably the same result... my lights are out.

    Too bad they aren't many made anymore, elder folks who can't handle recoil might find them a useful security tool.
     

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  6. Cee Zee

    Cee Zee member

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    If you're still collecting I've got a Raven P-25 from the original factory I'd sell at a reasonable price. :) I suppose I could sell the thing but it's never seemed worth the effort.

    As for the .25 being a good choice for elderly people who are recoil sensitive I still say a .22LR is a better choice. And a .22 magnum is way better.
     
  7. ApacheCoTodd

    ApacheCoTodd Member

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    An old Army buddy...

    Here's one of a group purchase my team made back in the day.

    We decided that we wanted to start taking advantage of the survival privigeges granted when training on some governmental properties.

    In casting about for types and calibers - we were taken by the Mossad lore of the Beretta .22s and thought to try them for survival kits. At the time - for whatever reason - the .22s were completely unavailable but we were able to get 950BSs though mine, inexplicably was a simple "B".

    We originally were drawn to the Beretta for its tip up barrel in using .22 snake shot. Going with .25s left that issue open but then I ran into a fella at the rod and gun club who used to build snake shot .25 when he was in the Air Force. I wish I could remember his technique or better, knew where the remaining rounds are now. I run across them from time to time in a box but never make a point of placing them aside.

    We kept these rascals for months at a time in regular kitchen grade vacu-seal bags with the mags.

    Anyhow - we had the .25s and used them quite liberally to check out the concept.

    The odd pot critter is obvious. No problem and pretty damn accurate out to 18-25 feet. The snake shot needed to be very close but was fairly quiet and deaded a whole bunch of reptiles too iffy to just grab.

    A swamper on our team took a smallish Florida deer with 2 rounds though used a third in the brain-ball in the end. Situation being what it was, a knife would've worked too. Those might have been Glasers back when they were more rounded.

    Another cool enough thing about the Berettas was the funky options for them back in the 80s from folk like Cobray. One of their threaded barrels and faux suppressors made the fittings for a very cool active snare set-up.

    So, what'd we like?
    The tip-up barrel. Ammo versatility and cleaning.
    .25 was a pretty flat little shooter within its parameters.
    No damn grip-safety!
    External hammer.

    Given a dead deer, a gator - small but a gator none the less and countless other critters including several javelina, I'm at least OK with the notion of relying on one - if I need to.

    In the end, even with my experience, it's a back up to a back up.
     

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  8. BLU

    BLU Member

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    Side note... Two guys I've never met, one with an axe handle and the other with a bat, (both obtained from the truck they had parked so as to block my motorcycle in the parking space at a little country restaurant I stopped at on my very long trip) approached me. Since I assumed they weren't showing off their wood-working projects, I pulled a Bauer out of my vest pocket. The Bauer hadn't even cleared my pocket when, like a movie reversed, they threw the 'wood' back in the truck, got in and sped off. I cannot begin to explain all that I was feeling as I watched them drive off. They were scared off by one of the tiniest guns ever made. Thank God! They never even asked me what caliber it was! The only reason I had it with me was because it was to be a gift for my Mom. That day taught me many things, but one thing I learned for sure was that a gun, ANY gun, can tilt the odds very fast. That incident is why I bought this Bauer, (nostalgia)... that and I love mouse guns. Whenever I carry, I carry the largest caliber gun I can hide.... but sometimes I can only hide the NAA .22 Magnum. Forgive this old guy for rambling on, please!

    POCKETS... tell me more about those magazines! And is that a Raven I spot?
     
  9. ApacheCoTodd

    ApacheCoTodd Member

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    Yup BLU... More'n once, all I've had other than my .22 NAA were fingernails a sharp wit and biting disposition. It was often my shop pistol when our "car/motorcycle/whatever" shop was... well, poorly located.

    Still here...
     
  10. Onward Allusion

    Onward Allusion Member

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    That's the thing. People who never had to draw on someone don't understand that the overwhelming majority of people don't want to be shot. Absolutely, I would prefer a 357 or a 9mm, but that's not always feasible. I can't imagine going for a bike ride while wearing my 3" 357 or a full sized 9mm. I definitely would have problems attending meetings packing something that large while wearing slacks and a tucked in shirt. Given the choice between a 25 ACP, no gun, a sharp stick, or a small knife, I'd pick the 25 every time. BUT I would rather have a more hefty caliber.
     
  11. Cee Zee

    Cee Zee member

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    I think the reason people think the .25 is outdated is that there are guns that are the same size as the .25 autos from way back that are much more powerful. A .25 just doesn't compare with a .380 and they are about the same size as a general rule. If a person already owned a .25 I guess it would make sense to carry it if they couldn't afford another gun but given the choice I don't see why anyone would be a .25 today. The price difference would have to be huge for me to even consider it and to me it still wouldn't make sense because other calibers are much better at doing the job needed.

    This photo gives an idea of why the .25 is so inferior to the .380 in today's world. Sorry about the cheesy photo. I didn't have time to shoot a good one. This is a Raven P-25 and a Ruger LCP with a laser sight.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2014
  12. pockets

    pockets Member

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    BLU....Yes, the plated one in the right photo is a ubiquitous Raven.
    The magazines hold 15 rounds each. The one in the Beretta is an old 'National' brand from Numrich. Midway used to sell them also.
    The one for the Raven I got from ammoclip.com and is easily adapted to fit many other guns. I have another of that type adapted for a Sundance A25. The same mag also works in several FIE Titans (steel framed versions), Sterling 300, and a few other 25s.
    Note that these 15-round magazines place a lot more stress on the slide than a 6 rounder. They are for fun, not for lots of use.

    .
     
  13. pockets

    pockets Member

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  14. lincen

    lincen Member

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    What ever one thinks of the 25acp, I think it is great that this question has generated so much discussion. I have an Astra and a Beretta in 25 acp and enjoy them as fun guns. As in 32 acp my preference is for the European made 25 acp ammo.
     
  15. 25cschaefer

    25cschaefer Member

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    When I was 13 or 14 years old a guy I knew paid me $50 to reload 500 rounds of 25acp. He provided the dies and all the components. To me, that was a lot of dough and I was wondering why he would pay so much for reloading services (I probably would have done it for free). That is, until I started the loading process, everything is tiny. Trying to get the cases in and out of the press is hard enough, there is very little sticking up over the shell holder, the powder charge is ridiculously light and I ended up using only a trickler and scale to dispense because the powder througher would not regulate such small charges with any accuracy, and I had to use tweezers to place the bullets in the shell.

    I did not consider this man a friend after this incident, especially because he would not let me shoot his gun, he told me that it was not a children's toy. He trusted me to handload for him but not to handle the gun.
     
  16. ApacheCoTodd

    ApacheCoTodd Member

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    25cschaefer

    yeah - but look at the story you now have. Gotta be worth somethin'? That loading outfit would be something to see.
     
  17. Nom de Forum

    Nom de Forum Member

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    To the list of best made .25 ACPs you cannot forget the Ortgies. In my opinion it was the best of the best. They are a very well made striker fired pistol with no sharp protrusions that can snag inside a pocket. The Ortgies design was actually very popular for competition during the interwar years. They were available in .25, .32, and .380. I inherited a .25 from my grandfather.
     
  18. BLU

    BLU Member

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    Pockets... How does the longer mag stress the slide? (Teach me Obi-wan!)

    I think, as mentioned, better guns are being made at the same size a .25 was. I have a beautiful, (seriously, very nice!) Beretta 1935 in .32 that I NEVER carry simply because the PPK/S is of the same size and obviously more powerful.

    25cschaefer... LOL! I have enough problems reloading .380!
     
  19. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    I don't know why anyone would think that such people would understand that any differently from those of us who have had to do so.

    Should a non-violent intruder who is reasonably rational happen to encounter you unexpectedly in your living room and see that you have a gun in your hand, anything that they can recognize as a real gun should suffice, and deterrence will be the order of the day. Even a rather mean-spirited chap is likely to listen to persuasion under those circumstances.

    If, on the other hand, a violent criminal actor who does not know that you are armed and who intends to cause you serious harm ambushes you at close range from around the back of your car, you will have to draw and present the weapon, and he may be too far into the attack to react to your action. You might well have to use a weapon.

    True.

    There are small 9s, and of course .380s.

    I do not carry a knife due to the danger imposed by medication.

    Nor do I see any advantage to a sharp stick.

    But in the ambush scenario described above, I would very likely find my blackthorn or ash cane, already in hand, much more effective than a pistol in my pocket with a manual safety, a tiny grip, no sights, and an anemic cartridge. I would imagine that I would end up drawing my firearm after that initial encounter with the cane, had I not been presented with an opportunity to draw first.

    On the other hand, in the kidnap scenario set forth by 1911Tuner, a small hideaway backup could prove invaluable.

    Maybe one of those really small .32 ACP pistols....
     
  20. The Bushmaster

    The Bushmaster Member

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    Hell of a note..The damn .25 auto is still around and seems to be going strong. Look at what it generated on here. Must be a reason. But don't ask me.
     
  21. BLU

    BLU Member

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    I can tell you one thing this thread has done... it's made me consider putting the next Beretta 950 .25 ACP I see on Lay-Away! I already own the .22 Short Beretta, which BTW, as a mouse gun, is a force to be recognized with as well. See the attachment. (Would someone teach me how to put the pic in this window versus having to add it as a thumb-nail attachment?) Think I'll shoot a .25 ACP through another 2x4 as a comparison to this .22 Short.

    I've had a lot of people say the .22 Short would just ricochet off someone's skull. Uh, I don't think so. Not after doing this in a 2x4!!
     

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  22. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    Surely you did not need that demonstration to make you realize that a .22 Short can be extremely dangerous, and even lethal. Be careful with that thing.

    Heck, in the old days, .22 Shorts, well-placed, of course, were routinely used by farmers to kill pigs. They'll do it reliably.

    Even spring-powered pellets have killed people.

    That does not mean that anyone in his right mind should consider even for a moment relying upon an air pistol or a firearm using an extremely weak cartridge for self defense. As has already been hashed out in several recent threads, there is a considerable body of knowledge on the subject of would wounding effectiveness and on the necessary thresholds of penetration for prudent self defense. Bullets from a self defense weapon may have to penetrate both the ulna and the radius, a rib, several layers of clothing, and several inches of flesh, and still have the residual kinetic energy to destroy something vital. One cannot count on an attacker presenting his unobstructed face to you as a target.

    Back to the subject of ricochets: most, but not all, ricochets occur when a projectile strikes a hard surface at a small acute angle. Bullets ricochet off of water, hard ground, foundation walls, fences, pipes, tractor drawbars, and yes, even skulls. There are even cases in which 9mm bullets have failed to penetrate human skulls. Depends a lot on the angle of impact.

    Years ago, a friend decided to test a reproduction .41 Deringer muzzle loader in his basement. His back-stop consisted of newspapers and telephone books. As an additional margin of safety, he decided, unwisely, to put a piece of plywood on the face of the backstop.

    The round ball bounced right off the plywood and stuck him in the chest, causing heavy bruising. Had it srtuck him in a different place, it could have killed him.
     
  23. kBob

    kBob Member

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    Just so everyone knows......

    The term Saturday Night Special pre dates 1900. One of the little Suicide Specials was even marked that way if memory serves.

    My dad's EDC is a Bernadelli .25ACP. Regreatably he had it pimped out after I left home in 1973. It is now bright chrome with gold controls. I carried it occasionally.

    I would like to have been able to shoot it with the extended magazine and finger rest bulge, but have never even actually handled that magazine. The gun was accurate enough, soda can accurate at seven yards and paint bucket at 20.

    I like the ortgies as well. The Ravens never blew my skirts up as they were too big for the cartridge and just flat ugly. I liked the Beretta 950 in both .25 and .22 short and have owned a 21A in .22LR for a while, I shot the .25 model but the ammo was just to expensive to consider buying at the time.

    I would rather have a .25 than a sharp stick or even my walking cane for self defense. I would not be particularly frightened to walk about with one if that is all I had. I think a .32 is better and wish I still had a Bayard someone offered me long ago. It was smaller than the raven and pretty much could give a Baby Browning a run for its money.
     

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  24. kBob

    kBob Member

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    Here is an Ortgies and a little Italian .25 called a SATA. This last belonged to one of our baby sitters and she was happy with it......I liked the baby sitter with the stainless security six better though.

    -kBob
     

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  25. fastbolt

    fastbolt Member

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    I once worked with a guy who carried a .25 ACP pocket pistol off-duty and used it while off-duty. This was back when such diminutive calibers were still authorized for off-duty weapons.

    One night he was attacked by a suspect armed with a 9mm pistol. Shots were exchanged by both, at distances ranging up to what was described as across the (city) street. The attacker fled (was later apprehended, unhurt, as I recall) and the off-duty cop was unhurt, but rattled.

    It wasn't long before he appeared at a qual range with a new 9mm and a medium-frame .38 Spl revolver. He was very serious about qualifying with them and carrying one or the other. Last I knew, he was still carrying one or the other in his retirement.

    When LE agencies start restricting off-duty & secondary/backup weapons to minimum calibers of either .32 ACP or .380 ACP, there's usually a reason. FWIW, in recent years I've increasingly learned of many agencies imposing restrictions of "minimum" calibers for off-duty/secondary weapons, and the minimum calibers are usually .380 ACP & .38 S&W Spl.

    Now, for folks who are firearms enthusiasts and have an interest in nostalgic pistols chambered in diminutive calibers, I can see how collecting interesting .25 ACP's might be a fun hobby.

    I have a foreign-made "budget" .25 ACP somewhere in the bottom of my own safe, a leftover from when I was a much younger man and knew another cop who had a FFL and was always selling guns to other cops. That European .25 ACP pocket pistol stopped feeding and functioning normally after only a few boxes of ammo, and it's not been fired for maybe 25 or more years. I ought to submit it for destruction (and at least the slide being turned into sewer pipe), but I keep forgetting I own it until I'm rummaging through the safe. Maybe there will be a gun buy-back event in my area someday.

    I know a guy who owns a .25 Seecamp, and he rather likes it as a collectible (along with his .32 Seecamp). I tried it one day when he brought it to a range session. Pricey, but at least it worked. ;)
     
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