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Tell me about the 5.7 rd...please

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by IMTHDUKE, Mar 3, 2011.

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  1. IMTHDUKE

    IMTHDUKE Member

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    Is the 5.7x28 rd just a glorified .22 mag or does it actually have the ballistic power needed in a self defense situation.
     
  2. kingpin008

    kingpin008 Member

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  3. TexasRifleman

    TexasRifleman Moderator Emeritus

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    Tough one. It's been used so little in documented defensive situations there really isn't much real world evidence it doesn't seem.

    But, it's recoil is practically nothing in a PS90 so that's what my wife prefers for home defense.

    It's not my top choice but I'd rather have her comfortable with that than be unarmed.
     
  4. bobbarker

    bobbarker Member

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    I've got the FN 5.7, and I love it. As TexasRifleman says it has virtually no recoil, and for that reason, I like it as my carry gun. I'm a big guy, and I can handle recoil, but in a high stress situation, like if I had to use it in a defenseive posture, low recoil makes for greater accuracy. It's not got the most knockdown power, I'm sure, but between being able to consistantly put rounds in the center of the attacker, and having 20+1 rounds, I feel very confident in it's stopping ability.
     
  5. rstull85

    rstull85 Member

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    A friend of mine has a PS90 and a FN5.7 and he has let me try them both out a couple of times. I wasn't very impressed with either of them. Sure the weight, mag capacity and recoil was nice and the PS90 was compact. I would still prefer something with a little more stopping power for carrying or home defense. I considered the PS90 for a varmint rifle but according to some of the stuff I have read it is only accurate out to about 150 yards, thats a little shorter than I would like. Just my personal opinion.
     
  6. RancidSumo

    RancidSumo Member

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  7. Manco

    Manco Member

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    In my opinion, for defensive purposes load selection is critical because some of the commonly available loads, such as FN SS195LF, are deficient in penetration against humans. Loads that use 40 grain projectiles, such as SS197SR (loaded by Fiocchi with a blue-tipped Hornady V-MAX bullet), seem to penetrate adequately. While I doubt that the latter is quite as effective as larger handgun calibers, it should be effective while offering lower recoil and increased capacity.
     
  8. youngda9

    youngda9 member

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    Bigger holes leak more fluid. I wouldn't carry such a firearm for SD.
     
  9. Pete D.

    Pete D. Member

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    5.7

    The array of answers about this round is normal. It is a controversial little beast.
    The most documented use of the round in a combat situation occurred In Peru in 1996.
    Members of a rebel group, MRTA, occupied the Japanese Embassy in Lima on Dec. 17th.
    The rebels held hostages for 126 days...until a raid by Peruvian commandos on April 22, 1997. One hostage, two commandos and all the rebels were killed.
    The commandos were armed with weapons that used the 5.7X28 cartridge.
    There remains some controversy about how the rebels were killed since there were no wounded.
    Pete

    Edited to change the year from 1976 (wrong) to 1996 (correct)
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2011
  10. Carter

    Carter Member

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    Um, I may be mistaken, but wasn't the 5.7 round developed in the 80's and 90's?
     
  11. rstull85

    rstull85 Member

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  12. General Geoff

    General Geoff Member

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    The rebels died of temporal psychosis which they contracted from traveling back in time with 5.7x28mm weapons and ammunition :)
     
  13. dmancornell

    dmancornell Member

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  14. Chindo18Z

    Chindo18Z Member

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    The other notable use of 5.7 x 28mm was the Ft. Hood mass shooting by American traitor Nidal Hassan. In that 05 NOV 09 event, the gunman killed 13 and wounded 29 before being shot himself by responding police officers. He fired at least 146 rounds inside of a military medical center (and dozens more outside when he exited the building and was ultimately engaged by the police).

    Regarding terminal effect:

    1. Hasan was shooting rapidly and at close range against unarmed and (initially) unwary victims. Fish in a barrel situation.

    2. At least three unarmed victims separately attempted to physically charge Hasan inside of room distance and were stopped by his gunfire. One was shot in the hip and fell down. Two were mortally wounded.

    3. Per Wikipedia: "Base civilian police Sergeant Kimberly Munley, who had arrived on the scene... encountered Hasan exiting the building... Hasan turned and fired at Munley, who exchanged shots with him. Munley's hand was hit by shrapnel when one of Hasan's bullets struck a nearby rain gutter, and then two bullets struck Munley: the first bullet hit her thigh, and the second hit her knee. As she began to fall from the first bullet, the second bullet struck her femur, shattering it into 120 pieces and knocking her to the ground. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Hood_shooting

    4. Of five persons who actively counter-attacked Hasan (1 civilian Physician's Assistant, 2 Soldiers, and 2 responding police officers), 2 were killed, 2 were stopped by disabling wounds, and the last (a police officer) was missed by Hasan and stopped the fight with his own return fire.

    5. Roughly 2/3 of those hit were wounded and 1/3 killed. Probably about HIGH average for surviving hits with a pistol caliber and considering the relatively quick trauma medical response delivered to the wounded. Hasan was a relatively untrained pistoleer (self taught) with only a couple of practice sessions under his belt after purchasing the weapon.

    6. Hasan struck 42 victims using at least 180 and possibly over 200 rounds fired from nine x expended 20 & 30 round magazines. Hasan scored hits with somewhere between 21-23 % of total rounds (180 - 200) fired.

    All anecdotal tales of this round provide me a gut feeling that, while the little 5.7 is still ballistically in the .22 WMR category, both of those rounds are at least as effective as most mid-caliber FMJ handgun rounds (i.e, .380 ACP, 9 x 18mm, 9 x 19mm) and probably most non-expanding .38 Special. This of course applies only when discussing commercially available 5.7mm ammo.

    In the famous words attributed to Soviet Dictator Joseph Stalin, "Quantity has a quality all its own."

    That "quantity" performance comes in a lightweight, low recoil, high capacity, and easily controllable package. The FN Five-seven is not a death ray, but pistols generally aren't.
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2011
  15. AZ Five seveN

    AZ Five seveN Member

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    The references in that post are over 10 years old. The opinions and facts within are based on underperforming ammunition developed 20+ years ago which are no longer on the market (SS90 + SS190).

    The expectations placed on the 5.7x28mm round are a bit ridiculous. I feel like too many were trying to make it some "magical" round that it isn't, and the fact that it performs similar (with the right ammunition) to most average handgun calibers makes people write it off. One of the original intents of this round was to penetrate Kevlar and other body armors and barriers. With the right ammo, however, it can be an effective personal defense weapon. Another of the original intents was for personal defense... This round was very popular overseas before it was brought to the American market.

    No, it isn't going to magically stop a person in one shot, but why would it? Handguns were never meant to fulfill a one shot, stop role. If that's what you're looking for, it's time to buy a .454 Casull or .500 S&W (or a 12 gauge).

    http://www.hendonpub.com/resources/articlearchive/details.aspx?ID=309
    Massad Ayoob - http://www.ontargetmagazine.com/content/defensive-handguns-0
    http://web.archive.org/web/20060411012151/www.fnhusa.com/contents/tw_57x28mm.htm

    P.S. I have heard multiple rumors that certain Secret Service agents inside the White House (keyword: inside) carry the Five-seveN pistol. I have yet to see this rumor confirmed or denied. Most retorts are along the lines of, "SS agents are issued the P229 in .357 Sig."

    P.P.S. (I'm not sure on the source of the material other than it came from a thread over at militaryphotos.net...I'm still searching for it. I happened to have copied it as part of my initial research into the 5.7x28mm round, but I seem to have forgot to source it). Here it is and it's very long:

    "In actuality, the wound channel is approx. 3.5 to 4 in. due to the fact that the round tumbles in soft tissue and after it exits a solid medium such as wood or drywall. This system has also had a 100% fatality rate in the U.S. What this means is that everyone who was shot in a vital region of the body has expired. One subject in Sioux Fall S.D. was shot in the hand and the arm through a solid core door. He lost two fingers off his gun hand and the bone in his arm was shattered, leaving him with little use of the arm. Houston PD shot a subject who was firing at them with an AR-15. The subject was hit in the chest and the bullet tumbled into his heart, cutting it into two pieces. The coroner remarked that he had never seen a wound like that. The bullet also did not exit his body. I doubt that if this round had a wound channel that resembled a .22 Mag, it would do that sort of damage. Also the Secret Service and the Federal Protective Service has adopted the P90 as their new PDW. They did exhaustive tests of both reliability and ballistics. The SS190 bullet is almost 1 in. long. If it were passing sideways through soft tissue, which is what it does when it tumbles, it would certainly create at least a 1" wound cavity. Now, add to that syntactical energy produced by the round traveling 2300 fps (P90) or 2100 (FsN) and you have soft tissue tearing off the axis' (ends) of the bullet creating a much larger permanent wound cavity. I have done gelatin testing with this system and every police officer that saw it was needless to say very impressed. Again, if this were such a poor performer, why would the Secret Service adopt both the P90 and the FsN? Don't you think they would want a round that creates a large wound cavity and does not over penetrate? In fact the 5.7x28mm round is very close to be approved as a NATO round. If you have any question about the effectiveness of this round, I would encourage you to call Sgt. Sandy Wall at Houston PD SWAT and ask him about the shooting they had where the suspects heart was literally cut in two halves. I would also get in touch with the US Secret Service who has done extensive ballistic testing with this system. They are so impressed that they are replacing all 9mm sub machine guns with the P90. Do you think for a second that they would adopt a system that would not even work as well as what they had? In fact when they reliability tested the P90, it had only two malfunctions in 50,000 rounds out of 5 different guns. They stated in their report form the James J. Reilly Secret Service Training Center that the P90 is the most reliable weapon ever tested by that facility. Another interesting point that comes form this testing is that Dr. Fackler told the Secret Service before the tests that this system is ineffective. The Secret Service on the other hand had this to say... "While we respect Dr. Fackler's opinion, we have found this system to be a extremely effective system and we feel confident adopting it, we find that the 5.7x28mm system supports all claims made by FN concerning the effectiveness of this system"
    I would be careful of anyone who claims to know this system after only having fired one round in testing. To make the statement that Dr. Roberts does undermines his credibility and that of the people in the ballistic community. Gelatin is not human tissue. Dr. Fackler has been wrong before and I believe he wrong here as well. The proof is in the adoption of this system by the US Federal Government as well as over 25 counties across the globe. In the assault on the Japanese embassy in Lima, Peru, which is where the P90/5.7 system first went operational, all of the hostage takers were eliminated through their level 3 body armor. This includes the leader who was
    hit with one round through his body armor and expired. There are dozens of state and local departments here in the US who have adopted the system. I don't know of one department who said that the system was not effective ballistically.

    All the experience and real life examples speaks louder than any single round fired into a mold or a
    "professional" writing up ballistics on paper.

    Fact: The expert told the Secret Service the round would not be effective.
    Fact: The Secret Service did their own tests
    Fact: The Secret Service, though they respected his opinion, said he was wrong.


    I now have a solid opinion about this subject.

    About a week ago, I had absolutely no credible opinion about this round and I knew very little about it. I had shot it in the past, but I didn’t do any research on it. The only thoughts I did have about it where based on what people were telling me here. Basically, all negative. I’ve taken the initiative and I’ve done the research into the allegations and rumors circling around the FN 5.7x28. So far, I’ve found that some of the opinions presented, even some of the professional ones, have been false, misguided or lack real world examples.

    The only things left are your ballistics experts you continue to refer back to.

    Example of single shot kills:

    - Houston PD Swat - Single shot to the chest. tumbled into the heart and cut it in half.
    - Doraville, GA. Swat - Single neck shot.
    - Lima, Peru. Japanese Embassy. - Single shot to the chest, through body armor.

    We’ll see more after the IOM hits the streets in mass.

    I’ve already quoted three examples of single shots. Interesting note about the one person who managed to survive an attack from the P90 – The round went through a solid core door and was already starting to tumble. By the time it reached his bone, the round hit it flat and didn’t just break his arm, it powdered the bone within. Also, knocking two fingers off his gun hand.

    Again, I would like to hear (from anyone) who has a CREDIBLE source of information that is able to
    discredit this round legitimately. So far, no one has presented me with enough evidence to suggest this round should not be used to save someone’s life. In fact, I am retracting an earlier statement I made before – I would certainly use the Five-seveN system as a concealed weapon and a protective device for my own personal defense.

    It’s safe, light, easy to shoot, powerful and it has been field-tested to have a proven performance record time and time again. I wish the departments and the US government would be willing to hand over their independent ballistics test results. I want to see the data that changed the Secret Service’s mind in the face of evidence presented by the experts. Note that the Secret Service WILL give their findings over to law enforcement departments who request the information. This information is confidential. But I’m sure it’s what other LE agencies are basing their judgments on. I’m asking my question again – Who has proof this round is a failure? And if no one can answer this question then I’d like to know – Why is there such a determined and organized effort out to discredit a perfectly good round of ammunition? It does everything FN said it would do. It is a disservice to present damning opinions without researching the actual field tests and people who use it. It is a disservice to FN and the people who represent that factory. But worse, it is a disservice to the 5.7x28, a round of ammunition that has been designed to save lives while causing minimal collateral damage.

    But I implore you, do not take my word for what I’ve said. Do your own research. Get out of your labs and talk to the people who trust their lives to this system every day. Talk to the agencies who stepped up and did their own independent ballistics research. If I ask you to take my findings as the truth, then my findings would be no more valuable than an individual posting opinions in the Wound Ballistic Review." (Source unknown)

    Hope this helps.

    Edit: The premium ammo I mentioned is made by Elite Ammunition. (www.eliteammunition.com)
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2011
  16. AZ Five seveN

    AZ Five seveN Member

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    Also, why does everyone compare this round to a .22 magnum? Have you ever seen a .22 magnum travel at 2.3k fps with 390 ft-lbs of energy? Have you seen a .22 cause a 3"-4" wound cavity?

    Bigger isn't always better...
     
  17. mljdeckard

    mljdeckard Member

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    Because the range and capability are closer to a .22 mag than they are to a 5.56.
     
  18. AZ Five seveN

    AZ Five seveN Member

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    I guess a better question then would be why do so many try to compare a handgun/submachine gun round to a 5.56 rifle round? Should we start arbitrarily comparing all handgun rounds to rifle rounds?

    As for range, how far do you plan on firing a handgun?

    As for capability, the .22 and 5.7 are not similar in any respect.

    Edit: "The lightweight projectile also poses less risk of collateral damage in the event of a miss, because it loses much of its energy after traveling 400 m (1,310 ft), whereas a conventional pistol bullet such as the 9x19mm retains its energy beyond 800 m (2,625 ft)." That seems like enough range...
     
  19. brnmuenchow

    brnmuenchow Member

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    I do believe it is an effective round, however I do not own one simply because (as I have stated somewhere before on this forum) in the state of Texas you can't qualify with one to get your CHL license. ( .32 caliber or above.)
     
  20. Toforo

    Toforo Member

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    I bought one because I tripped onto a deal that very simply, couldn't be passed up.

    Yes, I had heard about the gun and knew WELL the devastation it inflicted by an UNTRAINED army doctor at Ft.Hood.

    Without getting into the ballistics of the bullets - or which bullets are ALLOWED and NOT allowed by who, what, when, where, and why........... it IS an INCREDIBLY easy and simple weapon to OPERATE - easier than a 1911 (of which I'm very fond - but the two are NOT comparable)

    Besides being a NATO weapon - AND used by "personal security" of the world's leaders, royalty, and VIP's - it ALSO has a pretty good "niche" application for home defense -

    - I live in a townhouse, there is NOT room to bring a shotgun to bear - and simply, NOT time - and of course, the shotgun is the ideal home defense weapon.
    There IS room to keep that FN57 as my bedside gun and when I hear that dreaded sound of someone coming upstairs in the middle of the night, I can sit there with all 20+1 rounds aimed at the door waiting for the fool to enter into basically a SLOW MOTION "blast" of 21 EXTREMELY RAPID-FIRED rounds dead center at the about to be extinquished victims chesst.
    It would be devastating.

    - I have two OLD uncles - one 97 and the other 85 with parkinsons.

    Even at the advance age of 97 who's worked construction his entire life (his hands are so gnarled he can't use silverware, we had to put small "hammer-handles" on his flat ware so he could grip it.
    Even HE can pull back the slide and operate the gun's controls - the weapons are so large and easy to use (I think it was designed so "combat gloves" can be worn - but that's an OPINION and not proven fact)

    The 85yearOld with parkinsons and severe tremors.... He TOO can pull back the slide and operate the weapon's controls - even with his tremors -

    - and they are both PRETTY "adept" with this weapon inside 15 yards.

    So am I, lol.

    I can "blow up" a squirrel at 50 yards (about as far as I can see, lol) - my neighbor, younger and perfect vision, can "blow up" a squirrel at 100 yards. I can't even see it, lol

    Yes, this is an expensive NICHE gun - and deservedly so.
    It's my nightstand "go to gun" on the way to the .357 or .45's and I TRUST my Uncle's lives with this weapon - and they do too!

    :)
     
  21. InkEd

    InkEd Member

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    The 5.7 is an interesting but somewhat unproven round. IMHO it fills a niche between .22mag and 5.56NATO. The big hooplah is that with certain mostly (non-civilian) loads it can penetrate soft body armor. However, so can cheap Soviet surplus Tokerev ammo and just about any rifle cartridge. One thing that really hinders the progress and wider use of the round is that so few guns are chambered for it. Only time will tell for this little round.
     
  22. Birdmang

    Birdmang Member

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    Savage just released a bolt rifle in 5.7x28. Hopefully other makers, wolf or olin, will make ammo for it and the prices will drop. But $22 per a box of 50 isn't too bad.


    I love to shoot my PS90. The recoil is extremely manageable and this gun is FUN. Its nice to have 50 rounds in a magazine, and I could rapid fire at a paper plate at 50 yards and get enough rounds on target to do whatever needs to be done.

    If someone busts in the house they get a 12 gauge. But the ps90 is awesome and fun.
     
  23. Pete D.

    Pete D. Member

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    Data

    Thank you for the date correction. I wasn't paying the attention that I should have when typing.

    About the comparisons to the .22 magnum - similar range and capability - well.....yes and no. Mostly no. The 5.7 is a much "hotter" load.
    The comparisons almost always fail to mention that the 5.7 rounds are being fired from a pistol with less than a five inch barrel and the .22 mag ballistics are as that round is fired from a rifle. Not quite the same thing. The 5.7 still comes out ahead. (my apologies if some one mentioned this already, I did not read every post closely.)
    The Elite Ammo rounds, as mentioned, are a whole 'nother dimension.
    Pete
     
  24. rbernie
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    rbernie Member

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    Y'all play nice. I just deleted a bunch of posts that didn't meet that standard.
     
  25. InkEd

    InkEd Member

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    No, I saw it. Then I read further down about them going through a solid core door and still doing (seemingly a "little" far-fetched) serious damage to people, does contradict itself a bit.

    You're post and more importantly the known acceptance of it's use over the 9x19mm by the Secret Service (as a submachine gun cartridge) helps make a good real world case for it. However, we also know that just because the government issues a weapon doesn't mean it is the best. The FN P90 is an interesting and well designed weapon. I agree that it serves it's role as a PDW for certain situations. However, being an ideal cartridge for use
    inside a typical surburban house is another story. You want quick stopping power in a civilian defense scenario. IMHO there are other cartridges better suited for the job
    of home defense. The 5.7 is probably an effective round. Like I said, time will tell it's story.

    Personally, I would like to see the round chambered in something of a cheap "bullet-hose" configuration like a MAC. You could take advantage of the ammo size for sure. It could easily hold about 50rds in a magazine the size of a 30rd 9mm magazine. The reduced recoil is nice. It wouldn't be practical BUT it would be fun. Then have somebody make cheap ammo for it.
     
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