Tell me about the 5.7 rd...please

[Shawn Dodson]

About 30% of those shot with 5.7x28mm during the 2009 Ft. Hood shooting died from their wounds.

About 30% of those shot with 9mm FMJ during the 2011 Tucson shooting died from thier wounds.

 

[trlhrv]

Sold my FN 5.7 two years ago. Fun to shoot but the LOUDEST handgun I had with no recoil. I would be concerned about collateral damage after a round penetrated an assailant. Seems more like a novelty than a self defense pistol.

 

[AZ Five seveN]

Sold my FN 5.7 two years ago. Fun to shoot but the LOUDEST handgun I had with no recoil. I would be concerned about collateral damage after a round penetrated an assailant. Seems more like a novelty than a self defense pistol.

I hate to beat a dead horse to death (I know right?), but I feel like I have to repeat myself...again.

"The 5.7x28mm projectile is statistically safer than conventional pistol bullets, because the projectile design limits overpenetration and has a lower risk of ricochet. The lightweight projectile also poses less risk of collateral damage in the event of a miss, because it loses much of its energy after traveling 400 m (1,310 ft), whereas a conventional pistol bullet such as the 9x19mm retains its energy beyond 800 m (2,625 ft)."

Third time might be the charm, I hope.

 

[hardluk1]

There most be something to these small quicker rounds. If you look around the world there several countries that have there own version. HK has there 4.6-30 round and china has there 5.8x21.

 

[M&PVolk]

It is a very interesting round to me. If the ammo and guns that were chambered in it were less expensive, I might seriously consider getting one. It is hard to justify it as more than a "fun" gun/cartridge combo at this point, though. The cartridge is not superior to most handgun rounds, and isn't as potent as a 5.56. This kind of puts it in a bit of limbo.

For handguns, the 9mm is cheaper and the .40 is about the same price for ammo. Both have a full history of effectiveness and are readily available in a variety of loadings. In a rifle for varminting, there is the .22 LR, .22 Mag, 17 HMR, .204 Ruger, and the .223. I'm not sure there is enough advantage over any of these, either from power or just a straight ballistics head-to-head. I can see it as a home defense round in very specific situations, but the AR covers many of the same bases, and does so with more power than the PS90, while giving up only a bit of maneuverability.

Like I said, interesting but too expensive and niche for me at this time. Would love to shoot one, though.

 

[Manco]

About 30% of those shot with 5.7x28mm during the 2009 Ft. Hood shooting died from their wounds.

About 30% of those shot with 9mm FMJ during the 2011 Tucson shooting died from thier wounds.

For what it's worth, this corresponds pretty well to the similarity in the cross-sectional areas of expanded 5.7x28mm bullets and unexpanded 9x19mm bullets.

There most be something to these small quicker rounds.

Sure, just like there is something to bigger, slower rounds.

If you look around the world there several countries that have there own version. HK has there 4.6-30 round and china has there 5.8x21.

Smaller rounds offer greater capacity and controllability, but trade off some per-round lethality for these advantages. Where the line should be drawn on compromises depends on the purpose that a weapon is intended to serve, as well as the individual in the case of private use.

It is a very interesting round to me. If the ammo and guns that were chambered in it were less expensive, I might seriously consider getting one. It is hard to justify it as more than a "fun" gun/cartridge combo at this point, though. The cartridge is not superior to most handgun rounds, and isn't as potent as a 5.56. This kind of puts it in a bit of limbo.

For handguns, the 9mm is cheaper and the .40 is about the same price for ammo. Both have a full history of effectiveness and are readily available in a variety of loadings.

It seems that there should be a niche for an easily controllable caliber that should be more effective than .22 LR, perhaps matching .380 ACP in terminal effectiveness but with lighter recoil. The real question is whether it has the right combination of attributes to gain a substantial foothold in the market, and whether it can overcome the media-fueled stigma that surrounds it. .40 S&W succeeded because of major law enforcement support and good timing, plus it's not so different from other entrenched calibers. .22 LR continues to succeed despite its relative weaknesses because it's so inexpensive and ubiquitous. And .380 ACP has gotten back into the game big-time because of the compact size of the pistols. I think what 5.7x28mm needs is for law enforcement to give it a fair chance and see what happens, but it's not an easy sell because it's so different and extreme in certain ways. It's kind of stuck in a chicken & egg scenario of needing to establish a good reputation for effectiveness in handguns, but not being adopted by those who would test it because of the lack of reputation (sort of like the old job experience conundrum).

 

[M&PVolk]

I agree Manco. It strikes me a little like the 6.5 grendel for the AR platform. A round with a ton of potential being held back because of expense and the same types of LE adoption conundrums.

 

[NMGonzo]

Bigger holes leak more fluid. I wouldn't carry such a firearm for SD.

and any hole through and through is pretty good versus no hole

 

[michael5446]

i know i'm new here, therefore my opinion carries little weight, but i do have a few miles of experience in firearms... any .22 round has its limits(hope ya hit dead on what you are aiming at)but also has the advantage in ammo capacity... the point of "knock down power" must be addressed and should not be taken lightly in a conflict situ... we cant compare real world wartime effectiveness of any 22 or 9mm against unarmed, untrained, and unprotected civilians--pretty much anything will do in that situation...

just a thought

 

[rstull85]

I kinda look at the 5.7 as taking the 9mm vs .45 auto (or 5.56 vs 7.62) argument to the extreme. The die hard 9mm fans love the lighter recoil and higher mag capacity and argue that three or four shots from a 9mm is more effective than a .45 (I currently carry a 9mm and have carried 45's both work great as long as you practice and are comfortable). I have also heard quite a few horror stories of 9mm not stopping someone right away (especially if they are on drugs). With the 5.7 they are just adding more rounds and even less recoil but also less stopping power. Just my personal opinion.

 

[AZ Five seveN]

About 30% of those shot with 5.7x28mm during the 2009 Ft. Hood shooting died from their wounds.

About 30% of those shot with 9mm FMJ during the 2011 Tucson shooting died from thier wounds.

I see where you are going with this, but these two shootings were totally different.

We know both shooters were untrained, and the Tucson shooter used 9mm FMJ while the Ft. Hood shooter used the 5.7x28mm.

The BIG differences are the proximity and response of the victims of both shootings.

In the Tucson shooting, no shot longer than 30 feet was necessary as most of the targets were in a crowd and were civilians. Civilians tend to freeze when shots are fired. These victims would have been sitting ducks, and many were killed execution style.

In the Ft. Hood shooting, the shooter was on the move firing at random targets at varying distances. Many of the victims in the Ft. Hood shooting were trained soldiers. These soldiers were unlikely to freeze in a combat situation due to their training. They are trained to either attack the target by moving to the shots, or retreat, regroup and flank. Since none of these soldiers were armed, their likely response would be to flee, minus the three soldiers who attempted to charge the target.

Those statistics reflect very, very different scenarios, and they should be used very carefully.

 

[Manco]

In the Tucson shooting, no shot longer than 30 feet was necessary as most of the targets were in a crowd and were civilians.

What difference would that make, exactly? Would 9mm FMJ lose so much effectiveness at longer distances, or would greater bullet drop from the slower rounds affect accuracy so much? I doubt it.

Civilians tend to freeze when shots are fired. These victims would have been sitting ducks, and many were killed execution style.

You mean like the civilians who overpowered the shooter in Tucson?

In the Ft. Hood shooting, the shooter was on the move firing at random targets at varying distances.

In this case, there were plenty of targets clustered together at limited range.

Those statistics reflect very, very different scenarios, and they should be used very carefully.

There are a lot of random factors involved in any real shooting incidents being compared, but the results here are still pretty much in line with what I'd expect from cases where the shooting ended relatively quickly and medical attention was relatively timely.

Now, a better case in point for what you're saying would be the Virginia Tech massacre, which was very different in a number of important ways, and should only be compared with more similar incidents. Mainly, the shooting went on for an extended period of time with no medical help available, which as expected resulted in an inordinately high mortality rate.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

Ft. Hood - According to a USAToday news report nearly 150 rounds fired by the attacker inside the building and 70 rounds outside ( http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2010-10-20-fort-hood-trial_N.htm ). Many victims reportedly were shot more than once.

Tucson - 30-ish rounds fired.

Statistics have shown for years that 1 in 4 people deliberately shot with a handgun dies. As Manco already pointed out - the two shootings appear to align with this statistic.

 

[gearhead]

I haven't seen specific Coroner's Reports on the Tucson wounds, but the thing that struck me about reading the reports on the wounded and killed from the Ft. Hood shooting was that the shooter was consistently aiming low. The vast majority of the wounds were at belt level and below, rather than in the vicinity of COM. Several of the survivors had grievous injury to large and small intestine, kidneys, and liver IIRC, and if those shots had been 6" higher they would have been much more likely to have been fatal. It almost seems that the Ft. Hood shooter was shooting to maim rather than to kill, although I suppose it could also have been his lack of training.

 

[xfyrfiter]

In the same platforms ie. the AR the 9x19 has more ft. lbs. of energy downrange than the 5.7 by approx 150 #ft.( this info is on another site rite now can't remember which.)

 

[mustang_steve]

If you can't stop someone with a 5-7 pistol, you should seriously recosider your tactics.

A 20-round magdump into a threat can be done with extreme swiftness and incredible accuracy, even in the hands of a relatively new shooter (a year of experience approx).

It's not a one-shot stop, it's a small caliber volume weapon. Don't try to make a dagger into a broadsword, learn to use the dagger like a dagger.

 

[hardluk1]

I do wish an afordable hangun was made for this round. If FN was able to build and sell for the same kind of price as there 9mm pistols i would own one. But not at the price there retailing for. The 5-7 might not be the do it all round but with the 20 round count and controlablity It would make a good option.

 

[rstull85]

I think that if you did a twenty round mag dump into an attacker you will wind up in prison for the use of excessive force. At a minimum you will end up with a law suit and it would be hard to beat. Like I have stated before I would prefer fewer rounds of a larger caliber.

 

[Manco]

I haven't seen specific Coroner's Reports on the Tucson wounds, but the thing that struck me about reading the reports on the wounded and killed from the Ft. Hood shooting was that the shooter was consistently aiming low.

Well, he was hitting low, in any case. The possible reasons are varied, and it would be difficult to defend any guesses we'd try to make without more information. For all we know, it might have been something simple like the shooter jerking the trigger too hard due to stress, which can result in pulling the muzzle down just before each shot, or his laser sight being slightly off.

The vast majority of the wounds were at belt level and below, rather than in the vicinity of COM. Several of the survivors had grievous injury to large and small intestine, kidneys, and liver IIRC, and if those shots had been 6" higher they would have been much more likely to have been fatal.

On the other hand, it's also possible that the multiple wounds that many of the victims suffered made them more likely to die. The shooter in Tucson spread his shots out more despite having even more rounds per magazine (he just didn't get to reload because the victims jumped him when he tried).

It almost seems that the Ft. Hood shooter was shooting to maim rather than to kill, although I suppose it could also have been his lack of training.

He seemed bent on killing to me, although I won't pretend to know what was really going on in his mind. His lack of training could have contributed to his shot placement, it could have been pure chance, or maybe he anticipated (or saw) people getting low in order to make smaller targets of themselves so he aimed lower than he normally would at the range. Whatever the reasons, he expended an impressive number of rounds and achieved multiple hits multiple times--which doesn't work to the 5.7x28mm's favor in assessing per-round effectiveness, although it may for controllability--so I seriously doubt that he was playing around in any way.

 

[DoubleTapDrew]

Does the 5.7 round fragment out of the FiveseveN? Out of the P90 (10.3")? Just curious. I think their velocities are lower than the fragmentation threshhold for 5.56 (~2700fps?) but don't know if it's lower for the 5.7 rounds.

 

[mustang_steve]

rstull, if the use of deadly force is legitimate, then how would one define the use of force as excessive? Can one be more dead than dead? In that case, would the use of a large caliber be excessive force?

The only way I could see excessive force playing out is if it was clear and obvious that the attacker was no longer a threat, in which case there was no longer a justification for legal use of deadly force.

 

[Jenrick]

http://www.brassfetcher.com/5.7x28mm Performance Summary.pdf

Very interesting reading. The trimmed down 40gr Barnes bullets would be a definite fight stopper. The rest while a little low on penetration are certainly doing damage.

-Jenrick

 

[pink_talon]

on shooting low and .22 mags

re: Ft Hood. I can almost always tell when a student shoots consistently low, he's making the pistol go off ("I'm making it go off NOW! Push down) and is anticipating recoil recovery rather that compressed surprise break.

.22mag, I've been posting this tonight on some threads is that I believe that a long straight walled .22 Mag will just not feed reliably as a bottle neck design. This bias I have learned while watching hundreds of students in a beginning class with .22lr, jam up as soon as the chamber collects enough to get sticky or the wax/lead collects on the feed ramp.

 

[redloki]

Savage is now chambering their model 25 in 5.7x28. Out of a 22" barrel it should have quite a bit more zip to it than a Fiveseven or a P90, PS90. It is a nasty little round. I really enjoyed my Fiveseven I sold it due to ammo cost and not being able to get virgin brass. Without Ap ammo the intent of this weapon is lost but don't get me wrong with available ammo offerings it will still put a world of hurt on someone. I'd never feel undergunned with it.

 

[whitecoyote]

I like my FN Five-seveN