Tell me about the FR8.

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I saw one at an LGS recently and thought it looked interesting. Then I saw it mentioned here in another thread. Are they good, bad, or what? I think the price tag was around $350.00.
Bro, run down there and snatch it!

Ive had LOTS of Mauser's and my FR8 is by far my favorite- tough as nails, cheap ammo (.308), cool rear sight, and straight bolt handle (my preference).

Plus, you can wow your friends when you unscrew the "gas piston" to reveal the cleaning kit inside! :)
 
I would love to have a Spanish FR8. The way that I understand it and someone can correct me if I'm mistaken but I believe they were a Spanish training rifle in 308 before the CETME came out. I actually have a friend that made an FR8 with the appropriate CETME parts out of a Mauser action (a 98 I believe) and he had it rechambered in 7.62 x 39 and it turned out pretty slick and better yet it's really inexpensive to shoot all day long at $0.25 per round :) ..

my fr7-3.jpg
 
There is lots of misinformation or conflicting information out there about the Spanish guns. What I confirmable is that a whole bunch of Spanish Mauser rifles had the barrels replaced with .308 barrels when Spainwas switching to the .308 in a semiauto (Cetme). The general story was that the mountain of bolt rifles were still serviceable but they were in the wrong calibers and as such they were fit with new barrels. The reasoning behind the new barrel configuration seems logical that they would follow suit on their new service rifle would be and refit the barrels with something similar on the bolt rifles.

Spanish short rifles are considered unsafe with .308 ammo, but are considered safe with handloads loaded in .308 cases at .300 savage pressures.

Fr7 was built on the same actions as the rechambered short rifles and are likewise safe with the same ammo as the short rifles.

Fr8 was built on a different action with better heat treat and is considered safe with commercial .308.

But of course the Spanish arsenal that did the work on rebarreling has been described as everything from a hack shop where things are all unsafe because it crossed the property, to a center for competent gunsmiths, metallurgists, and voodoo priests capable of making any gun incredible by simple chants. Sounds to me a lot like some modern cries about polymer guns.
 
There is lots of misinformation or conflicting information out there about the Spanish guns. What I confirmable is that a whole bunch of Spanish Mauser rifles had the barrels replaced with .308 barrels when Spainwas switching to the .308 in a semiauto (Cetme). The general story was that the mountain of bolt rifles were still serviceable but they were in the wrong calibers and as such they were fit with new barrels. The reasoning behind the new barrel configuration seems logical that they would follow suit on their new service rifle would be and refit the barrels with something similar on the bolt rifles.

Spanish short rifles are considered unsafe with .308 ammo, but are considered safe with handloads loaded in .308 cases at .300 savage pressures.

Fr7 was built on the same actions as the rechambered short rifles and are likewise safe with the same ammo as the short rifles.

Fr8 was built on a different action with better heat treat and is considered safe with commercial .308.

But of course the Spanish arsenal that did the work on rebarreling has been described as everything from a hack shop where things are all unsafe because it crossed the property, to a center for competent gunsmiths, metallurgists, and voodoo priests capable of making any gun incredible by simple chants. Sounds to me a lot like some modern cries about polymer guns.

As you say, the mists of time have shrouded much truth, but yes the FR7 is a small-ring 93 action and the FR8 a large-ring 98. Folks will debate endlessly about the safety of commercial .308 in these guns. I shoot commercial loads in my FR8 all day long without losing any sleep, but I wouldn't try them in my Dad's FR7, which has been relegated to wall hangar status until I get setup to make some light handloads.
 
As you say, the mists of time have shrouded much truth, but yes the FR7 is a small-ring 93 action and the FR8 a large-ring 98. Folks will debate endlessly about the safety of commercial .308 in these guns. I shoot commercial loads in my FR8 all day long without losing any sleep, but I wouldn't try them in my Dad's FR7, which has been relegated to wall hangar status until I get setup to make some light handloads.
Surplus FMJ bullets over trailboss is nice.
 
$350 is a steal at today's price. I sold mine probably 8 year ago at $350. It is a cool rifle and give a nice muzzle blast to get everyone's attention. I sold it because mine was not particularly accurate compares to my other 308 Mausers. The muzzle blast out of the short barrel made the rifle jumps more. I was also concerned about the stock and handguard are getting hard to find if I need a replacement. I believe the current price should be around $450-500 if in good condition.
 
I would love to have a Spanish FR8. The way that I understand it and someone can correct me if I'm mistaken but I believe they were a Spanish training rifle in 308 before the CETME came out. I actually have a friend that made an FR8 with the appropriate CETME parts out of a Mauser action (a 98 I believe) and he had it rechambered in 7.62 x 39 and it turned out pretty slick and better yet it's really inexpensive to shoot all day long at $0.25 per round :) ..

View attachment 800702
The one in picture is more like an small ring FR7 with straight stock. FR8 is large ring and stock is 98 mauser style.
 
Agree--get it. A lot of folks tried to run down the stories about Spanish Mausers and the like. Someone ought to write an authoritative book about them. At 350, buy it. FR8's are built on a reliable rifle if you do want to shoot them.

A few facts that might help. The FR8's were built on the large ring Mauser 98 type receivers used in the m43 Spanish Mauser. New barrels were used as the original m43 was in 8x57 Mauser instead of the older 7x57mm (Franco was hedging his bets about who would win WWII). Large ring Spanish Mausers are made from modern steel and metallurgy and are considered generally safe in good condition for firing 7.62 NATO--not sure if the consensus was that the FR8 used new receivers or repurposed m43s or both. I've seen it argued both ways. The sighting system was designed to train people for the new CETME models under development. Whether or not the 7.62 CETME was used in them is unclear.

Here is a link talking about the FR8 from Forgotten Weapons https://www.forgottenweapons.com/ria-spanish-fr-8-the-cetmeton/

Old THR thread https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/anyone-have-experience-with-fr8-spanish-mauser.19291/

Milsurps.com thread on the FR8 http://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=39355

The info on FR7's is even murkier. Small ring Spanish Mausers were made and used over 50 years before the FR7's came along. They endured wear and abuse in tropical and desert climates with heavy use by both sides in the Spanish Civil War. A considerable debate exists on heat treatment which over the years may or may not have been that consistent. The FR7's were built supposedly as trainers just like the FR8's for the CETME changeover.
Part of the issue is that FR7's when re-made obliterated the original markings so how old these receivers are, what kind of refurb was done, is all in dispute with no authoritative accounts the last that I checked.

What complicates things is that Spain, like Italy and France, has an organization that is a paramilitary/police force called the Civil Guard which is separate from the Spanish military. I have seen FR7's attributed to the Spanish military as lightly used training rifles, to the Civil Guardia, etc. It is clear that the receivers came from 1893 and 1916 models but the selection criteria etc. has been debated and the suitability for 7.62 NATO even more so. I think that I may have posted a link to an old Guardia manual in a past THR thread and it indicates they were firing 7.62 NATO in their rifles circa late 1960's. There is a fierce disagreement over the existence and use of the mysterious 7.62 CETME on the boards and a number of folks that cite the White Laboratories report paid for by SAMCO indicating it was safe to use with 7.62 Nato.

Personally, I would not do fire them (1893's, 1916's, and FR7's) unless using low pressure reloads such as cast boolits loads. These FR7's are old receivers, there is considerable debate about the metallurgy and refurb techniques, Spain was an impoverished country at the time, and Franco was not known for his fine regard for human life. The White pressure test claiming it was safe to use the 7.62 NATO was paid for by Samco which is now bankrupt and so if death, dismemberment, or injury occurs, there will be no one to sue etc. I've read the short White report and not found it particularly impressive because it was a test to destruction pressures of a few receivers.

A greater risk than one really high pressure round is that the lug setback is a known problem with old Spanish small ring Mausers, the gas handling is inferior to that of the 98 action, and these receivers were made with a hard casing over a softer core of plain carbon steel. Firing high pressure rounds can cause an increase in headspace as the receiver lugs deforms when locked and fired under excessive pressure beyond design parameters (7x57 mm remember was the original round) of the 7.62 NATO. At some point, it is possible that a head separation occurs with nasty hot gases escaping into the receiver with bad consequences. Some of these actions are also badly pitted and hidden by the stock and may be brittle, etc.

A star THR poster, Slamfire, has posted quite a few places on the metallurgy of the time with detailed documentation and he is an experienced shooter of milsurps if people want more information. FWIW, the Spainards were already planning and financing the transition to new CETME series firearms to integrate into the NATO command and probably did not spend any money it did not have to in rebuilding these old rifles.

Some have alleged that Spain re heat treated them and other such things but no one with authority to do so has come up with acceptable documentation, at least in English nor that the Spainiards made these with new receivers and so on. Treat these FR7's as the collectables that they are. Buy and shoot an old Spanish Mauser instead in 7x57 if you must.
 
A buddy that got one when they started coming in at less than a C note took his to a local actual smith and had the bolt handle bent and the stock modified to have a cut for the bent bolt like a K98k. Smith refinished the whole stock so one would think the cut original like I like staight bolts too but that one looks very nice and doesn't snag when getting pulled out of a gun sock or long truck tool box.

A local shop back then that had one of the owners trying to learn gunsmithing on the fly cut the rear sight off one and welded (yes welded) a scope mount on it and it sold very quickly. I about cried.

Aquantance got an FR7 and once he read all the horror stories refused to sell it to me because he thought I might shoot .308 factory in it. I thought with some low pressure lead loads it would make a great stepping stone trainer for taking students from rimfires to high power without even mentioning .223/5.56. Some .30-30 pressure loads with .30-30 designed bullets should have been just fine if I ever needed it for hunting.

-kBob
 
The FR8’s are great rifles and shoot very well. One is nice but two are better. $350 is a very good deal these days.
B6D54FF3-87ED-4E4B-8530-D250F9C327DB.jpeg

Now if you get it you will need to find a bayonet for it, you now, just in case there is ever a Zombie Apocalypse.
But be sure to get the correct bayonet. The FR8 bayonet has smooth grips and the CETME bayonet has checkering on the grips. They will interchange .
DCBE1A8C-AB56-4D3E-B286-B6CE26E5B5C2.jpeg
 
My FR8 and Enfield #5 "Jungle" seem to be the original, basic "scout rifles".

ontarget (OP):
If the bore shows very limited use and the bolt is matching, then there seems to be a very good chance that the headspace is good.

Correct any of this where needed: I did hours of reading (am No gunsmith etc) about the Spanish FR7, FR8, and the 7.62 ammo development.
Supposedly the Spanish created a weak version of the 7.62 NATO round because of the weakness of the small ring (1890s) receivers of the classic 7mm Mauser rifles, many of which were Converted to use the 7.62 barrels--but still had/have the old, weak 7mm receivers.

The 8mm Spanish Mausers (receivers used in the FR8) have much better heat-treating as they were manufactured decades after the 7mm Mausers (receivers used in the FR7).

My impression from reading numerous observations by experienced 8mm Mauser owners is that the Spaniards designed their original 8mm receivers to use standard German (?) ammo, which reportedly is stronger than both standard 7.62 NATO...And modern commercial .308 ammo.
 
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What you say matches what I have found out.

The only exception is that the whole 7.62 CETME ammo argument doesn't have a whole lot of solid information. Yes, such a round existed, and yes, the earliest versions of the Spanish CETME (A and B models) used it apparently (there is a gunboards post dealing with the whole gamut of CETME types and subtypes out there). It is reasonable to assume that at least some of it was fired in FR7's and FR8's. That being said, there is no substantial source indicating that the lower pressure round was designed be fired in the FR7's and FR8's nor any real figures on how much was produced. If I recall part of the gunboards posting dealt with production of ammo at the Spanish arsenals in the 1950's and 1960's and whether Spain produced 7.62 NATO at the outset or whether the CETME was produced first, etc. Much heat and little light ensued.

You can read the old Civil Guardia manual published in the late 1960's (1967) and it clearly states 7.62 NATO as its designated ammo. The pictures of the relevant pages of the manual are at the link

https://www.northeastshooters.com/xen/threads/1916-spanish-mauser-762-conversion-question.155842/

This would make sense as Spain sought entry into NATO which mandated commonality of ammunition--not a weaker version such as the 7.62 CETME. It is reasonable to guess that the 7.62 CETME was more or less a training round and a cartridge for testing the CETME design and was designed as a stopgap until a full conversion to 7.62 NATO occurred. Somewhere, someone has probably studied Spain's enrollment into NATO and it is possible that old U.S. and/or NATO documents could provide some insight into munitions analysis of Spain's suitability to meet the common ammunition standard.
 
I was told by an acquaintance in the Spanish military, ~15 years ago, that Lanza was the Spanish reloading "bible" ... he sent me these:

2v2u1UKoyxAW38L.jpg
Of particular interest to me were the matching Chamber Pressure (Presión (recámara)) listings.




Here is a pic of the label on one of my packets of 7,62CETME (I still have most of a case remaining):

2v2u1UbuGxAW38L.jpg
 
Gunny,

In 1982 the Hessian Police were using that blue stuff on an indoor range at the Police Academy in Hanau in the G1 version of the FNFAL. They also used .32 ACP version and a 9x19mm version. They claimed to like the FN more than the G3.

I have a grand total of one 50 round box and have been able to find no more. I look for it at shows an ocassionally on line but no luck.

WARNING!!!! DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME!!!!! OR ANY PLACE ELSE, DANG IT!!!!!!

The Green plastic 7.62 NATO Blanks like this were popular in my Infantry outfit in the mid 1970's. We would cut away the plastic, remove the flash suppressor from an M16A1 drop the brass blank base in the flash suppressor with the primer facing out, Screw on the flash suppressor and have what we called a "Hollywood suppressor" We would point the barrel at the soft ground to remove the primer via the explosive force of a blank …. I know, insane and no doubt dangerous...see exclamations above. The primer vent on that cartridge base was just enough of a restriction to allow the M16A1 to function like it had one of the big ugly BFAs screwed on the muzzle. The effect was much improved by taking a hacksaw to the brass base and removing the bit normally covered by the plastic so one had basically a washer of cartridge brass so the flash hide seated almost normally.

So equipped our rifles appeared to be firing ball ammo when in use and it on more than one occasion frightened other units "aggressing" against ours long enough to make a good get away or twice run off the attackers.

-kBob

No way in heck would I ever do this with one of my own rifles. At the time, being still invincible because of an over abundance of testosterone and lack of life experience and since it was Uncle Sugars rifle it seemed like a fun idea. You know sort of "Want to see something neat? Hold my beer." Anyhow I still have my face and both eyes and no one was crippled by molten or fragmented cartridge brass from rifle stock number 114.
 
Gunny,

In 1982 the Hessian Police were using that blue stuff on an indoor range at the Police Academy in Hanau in the G1 version of the FNFAL. They also used .32 ACP version and a 9x19mm version. They claimed to like the FN more than the G3.

I have a grand total of one 50 round box and have been able to find no more. I look for it at shows an ocassionally on line but no luck.

WARNING!!!! DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME!!!!! OR ANY PLACE ELSE, DANG IT!!!!!!

The Green plastic 7.62 NATO Blanks like this were popular in my Infantry outfit in the mid 1970's. We would cut away the plastic, remove the flash suppressor from an M16A1 drop the brass blank base in the flash suppressor with the primer facing out, Screw on the flash suppressor and have what we called a "Hollywood suppressor" We would point the barrel at the soft ground to remove the primer via the explosive force of a blank …. I know, insane and no doubt dangerous...see exclamations above. The primer vent on that cartridge base was just enough of a restriction to allow the M16A1 to function like it had one of the big ugly BFAs screwed on the muzzle. The effect was much improved by taking a hacksaw to the brass base and removing the bit normally covered by the plastic so one had basically a washer of cartridge brass so the flash hide seated almost normally.

So equipped our rifles appeared to be firing ball ammo when in use and it on more than one occasion frightened other units "aggressing" against ours long enough to make a good get away or twice run off the attackers.

-kBob

No way in heck would I ever do this with one of my own rifles. At the time, being still invincible because of an over abundance of testosterone and lack of life experience and since it was Uncle Sugars rifle it seemed like a fun idea. You know sort of "Want to see something neat? Hold my beer." Anyhow I still have my face and both eyes and no one was crippled by molten or fragmented cartridge brass from rifle stock number 114.
Dan's Ammo has it for $189 for a case of 1000 rds, or $99 for 500 rds. I think he still has free shipping on the 1000 rd case.
http://www.dansammo.com/ammo.asp

Oh how I miss the younger years and the over abundance of testosterone, and playing with the toys that Uncle Sam gave us to play with. Sometime I am amazed that I ever made it pass 25. :cool:
 
Got my FR8 some years back. It is pretty minty. Shoots pretty well, but not a tack driver.

$350 is a good deal on a FR8 in good condition.

All my milsurps have appreciated to the point where I am less likely to take them out as the beater rifles I bought them as.
 
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