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Tell my Dad why .22LR/.25ACP is no good for SD

Discussion in 'Handguns: General Discussion' started by SuperMagnum, Aug 4, 2009.

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  1. SuperMagnum

    SuperMagnum member

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    For some reason my Dad got the idea that he wants "a little .25" or maybe a .22 for a house gun. I keep telling him he needs to get a little pink dress to wear before he shoots it. His only reasoning is "I can hide it in my back pocket" and "If I have to use it, it will be up against the guy's head anyway". :banghead:

    I'm sorry if there are any .25 ACP fans out there but I think this is one of the most useless rounds out there, and would trust a .22 for defense first. Most rational people don't use a .22 for defense either. I keep telling him he can easily get any gun that shoots .25 in something like 9mm or .380 and it would still fit in his pocket. And the situation of having the gun up against someone's head is never going to happen in real life. :rolleyes: We're talking about a very large man who can handle the recoil of a .44 Mag and probably hide a Blackhawk in his pocket...

    So, could anyone besides me list the reasons why (or why not if you feel that way) a .25ACP makes a terrible house gun? I'm going to print this out and let him read it...(he still hasn't figured out that whole "internet" thing)
     
  2. 3pairs12

    3pairs12 Member

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    25acp is better than a sharp stick. On the other hand there a lot of better calibers for home defense/ pocket guns. I like .38spl for small pocket size guns. Still pretty light on the recoil, cheap to shoot, bigger hole, ammo will be more readily available and cheaper(at some point) again.
     
  3. CornCod

    CornCod Member

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    Its never worth arguing with parents. Suggest that he get a Walther P22 and shoot CCI mini-mags for practice and CCI Stingers out of it for self-defense. Just be happy the old guy shares your interest in firearms and don't worry that he never read Jeff Cooper.
     
  4. CWL

    CWL Member

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    Buy your dad a nice revolver in .38spl/.357mag, or a 9mm semi, or a 12ga., etc.

    If you buy him something with a larger bore, hopefully you will preclude his need for that .25ACP.
     
  5. SharpsDressedMan

    SharpsDressedMan member

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    My dad had a couple 12 ga shotguns, a couple .22 rifles, a Jap 6.5 he brought home from WWII, and an H&R 922 he bought for a "house gun" that he never kept loaded. It rested in a dresser drawer for all of the time he had it (we sons took it out and shot it a bit) except for the times he took it along hunting to finish off rabbits. He never used it in self defense. My friends dad had a .25 Colt that he never kept loaded in his dresser drawer, much the same as my dad. SO, I guess a .22 or .25 handgun might serve most people quite well (as most people will never have a need to use it.)
     
  6. mljdeckard

    mljdeckard Member

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    This last month, my dad finally went to get his carry permit. At the last minute, my mom wanted to go with him. The instructor had her shoot to show proficiency, (instructor's choice, the state doesn't require it,) and she failed miserably, not having touched a handgun that I'm aware of in the last 25 years. So my dad is telling me this, and says; "I think I need to get her a .22 to carry."

    I told him what CWL said above. That if she can't shoot a .22 well enough to save her life, it doesn't matter what you get her. The best, least intimidating way for her to learn and carry a viable SD gun, (besides continuing .22 practice,) is to get a 4" Ruger or Smith .357, load it with .38s, and let her learn her way up to .357 loads. He suggested going to a different instructor that wouldn't require the shooting test, and I said go ahead, BUT, she STILL won't be ready to carry. She has a LOT of learning to do, and (I bit this part off,) what he was teaching her obviously wasn't letting her hit the mark. A small gun CAN be a way to help a beginner learn, but if they can't even hit with that, they need ground-up training.

    And I'm 100% with the OP. We have beat the hide off of this dead horse, and a lot of guys in here won't be convinced, but I will NEVER tell someone to carry something smaller than 9mm for personal defense. (If they're anyone I actually care whether or not they live or die.) Yes, you use what you have. Yes it's BARELY better than nothing. But if anyone gets a .22 and tells themself thatg they are done, trained and safe, they have NOT increased their chances of survival. They are going to be just as complacent about their TRAINING as they are about their GUN CHOICE. They are keeping it because they are unwilling to learn more, or too lazy to train, or both.

    I agree with CWL, that if he had a choice, something bigger, like HE SUDDENLY HAD A MEDIUM SIZED REVOLVER THAT SOMEONE GAVE HIM, he might be more willing to shoot it, and realize that it isn't so terrible. I doubt there's a thing on the planet you could say to him to change his mind. You're going to have to SHOW him this one.

    My father is also a large man, who just bought his first 1911. (A SA Mil-Spec.) He's been hunting and shooting his whole life, but NOT with defensive handguns, so he still isn't used to the recoil. I didn't tell him that a Glock .40 recoils a lot more. It's a question of what one is used to and perception of what is and is NOT bad recoil.

    I suppose you might also say I agree with Sharps. A .22 or .25 is great......as long as you never have to actually use it. :) It's a security blanket, not a survival tool.
     
  7. christcorp

    christcorp Member

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    Sorry Magnum, but I try not to lie to people.
     
  8. David E

    David E Member

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    Any gun WITH you beats any gun not. That said, not all guns or calibers are equal.

    If a .25 acp improves your odds by 5%, then that's still an improvement on the odds.

    But, as you said, you can get .32's and .380's in the same size gun. Going with your Dad's "back pocket" criteria (poorly thought out as it is, since a "house gun" would rarely be found in the back pants pocket) then get him a Keltec or Ruger LCP .380 and a pocket holster and call it good.

    If you have time and inclination, take him shooting and bring some better gun choices with you and see which one he likes. Remember, you're taking him shooting to have FUN......and hopefully he'll find one he likes. (if you have or can borrow a Raven .25 or Baby Browning, bring it. He'll realize pretty quick that the .25 isn't the only answer.)
     
  9. Dr.Rob

    Dr.Rob Moderator Staff Member

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    Offer him two gifts:

    One is a man purse for his .25 or .22

    The other is a real pistol/revolver. You can pick up a Charter Arms or Taurus 38 on the cheap that will be a LOT more reliable than most 'cheap' .5's on the market.
     
  10. mljdeckard

    mljdeckard Member

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    (My family gives me crap for carrying a full-size 1911 in a fanny pack, my 'man-purse'.)
     
  11. zxcvbob

    zxcvbob Member

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    Get him a Beretta (Tomcat?) .32 -- it's one step up from what he's talking about. A Makarov might be a good choice, but that's about 3 steps up. (I'm looking at antique S&W Hammerless Safety revolvers; cute little things that would fit in a pocket real easy. Hold 5 shots of .38SW )

    .22 is not as bad as you imagine, except the ammo sure seems unreliable lately. If he gets a .22, tell him to use CCI Minimags or better. They are the only .22LR I know of that goes "Bang" every time.
     
  12. CWL

    CWL Member

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    A least the Tomcat has a tilt-up barrel, but small guns are just a bad choice for primary SD, especially with people getting-on in years. Try holding, loading, racking the slide and aiming one of them, especially with arthritis and similar ailments.

    Rather than arguing this with one's parents, I still suggest gifting them a better firearm.
     
  13. Dr.Rob

    Dr.Rob Moderator Staff Member

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    Even if he's SET on a small pistol get him well made one. No reason to bet your life on a 60 dollar Lorcin/Raven etc when a Beretta is available. A Beretta will stand up to real practice, many of those cheap pistols won't.

    You can also benefit from a 'full sized' .22 or at least a .22 Magnum that get significant benefits from a longer barrel.
     
  14. WTBguns10kOK

    WTBguns10kOK Member

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    Corncod has the best advice. You'd be wise to meet your old man where he is at.
     
  15. bangkok

    bangkok Member

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    I think it's funny that most people believe you need a hand cannon for SD. IMO, most people will never need or use it in a SD situation, most burglers or muggers aren't hopped up on PCP and require a full mag of .45 (most are just opportunist) (sp?) and last, i've seen that just the sound of a single gun shot of any caliber sends people running in the opposite direction.

    Oh yeah, I forgot, even a .22 or .25 round hurts enough to stop an attack in most situations as I said they aren't all whacked out on PCP, crack or a zombie.:)
     
  16. shootistpd27

    shootistpd27 Member

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    I have three letters for you. L. C. P. It the perfect pocket pistol and it wont weigh his pants down while it waits quietly to be called into service. Its amazingly accurate and relatively cheap. Its only about $325 retail. He wont be able to argue with its size, weight and caliber. However a 22 will kill the hell out of someone. I dont know why people act as if a 22 lr wont hurt the bad guy. If your so set against your dad getting a 22 or a 25, volunteer to take one of the small rounds to the but cheak, if its not so bad, you will just walk it off and he will buy a bigger caliber pistol.
     
  17. David4516

    David4516 Member

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    The .25ACP isn't THAT bad.

    It beats using a stick or a rock

    I have a small Beretta model 950 "Jetfire" in .25, and I like it. My wife has one too. I know it's been said about a zillion times, but a gun in the pocket beats one in the safe. And nothing disappears in your pocket like a .25

    It's not my first choice of course, but sometimes it's hard to carry something larger, and I'd rather have the little gun than no gun at all.

    You could try talking him into getting two guns. A little Beretta for his pocket, and maybe a pump shotgun. Can't go wrong with either a 20ga or a 12ga and buckshot.
     
  18. zxcvbob

    zxcvbob Member

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    I didn't recommend that one because the recoil is so nasty he'll never practice with it.

    The .25 could break the skin and cause a nasty infection. :D
    __________________
    "Blow up your T.V., throw away your paper, go to the country, and build you a home" —John Prine
     
  19. THE DARK KNIGHT

    THE DARK KNIGHT Member

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    Ask your dad if he can describe a SELF DEFENSE situation in where you can hold the gun against someone's head. Explain to him self defense is legal, execution is not. The only situation I can think is if you're tackled or wrestling with an assailant with a gun in your hand. I'd rather not wait till I'm rolling on the floor with a maniac for my weapon to be effective.

    There is no doubt 22/25 are lethal but, effective? no. Take him to a range and rent some compact 9's, he'll like them.
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2009
  20. MarineOne

    MarineOne Member

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    How about the Bursa .380 for this task?

    It's small, easy to conceal, decent caliber size, and will fit in a back pocket or under a pillow rather nicely.

    I think he justs wants a small semi-auto and the more commonly known varieties are the .22 and the .25. I wouldn't use a .25 because my aunt had one many moons ago that had a tendancy to go into "burst" or "full auto" regularly.



    Kris
     
  21. ThrottleJockey72

    ThrottleJockey72 member

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    Sorry, that's just a stupid reason. The problem there was the gun, not the caliber. I think it is funny how for 30-40 years a .25 was a suitable SD gun, but now it suddenly isn't. Look, shot placement is the factor, not caliber. Besides, maybe he doesn't want to worry about over penetration and a stray bullet going through a wall and harming an innocent? I sometimes carry my .25 as my primary weapon, sometimes as a BUG, but rest assured, I carry it with confidence.
    [​IMG]
     
  22. sarduy

    sarduy Member

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  23. kyo

    kyo Member

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    Mr SuperMagnum Senior, I am replying to your son's request to explain to you that the calibers that you have chosen to protect yourself with, while better then nothing, are horrible indeed. There are so many guns out in the world that would fit the description of what you are looking for. The best examples would be the Ruger LCR and LCP. The revolver and pistol respectfully are light, small and can easily fit into any pocket you want, even with a pocket holster. Other options include Kel-Tec 380, and a Desert Micro Eagle. All come in a 380, or 38 special variety that can and will do you better while still being very compact.

    I do have to inform you that if you are ever close enough to an assailant that you can put a gun to his head, then you are in danger because he can stab you faster than you can get the gun to his head.

    If you are worried about conceal ability then don't, because there is such a variety of guns for you in all calibers, even a .454 Casull which will blow a hole through a bear but is the size of your hand(well, maybe a scratch bigger depending on your hands). So, unless you want to carry a .50 Action Express, don't worry, the gun world has you covered.

    Price is a different point of your decision I am sure. The usual price point for compact guns is from 300 to 600 bucks. 600 is high, since I don't shop for compacts. But, glock 39's do exist, and they are very small but pack a punch of a 45 inside them.

    Since we are talking about a large man(you) then I don't see why a decently sized gun is an issue. I conceal a Ruger P345 and I am 5'10" at 145 lbs. Im shrimpy, and I can conceal a full sized 45 on my person. I am sure you can as well with a simple t-shirt. Most any gun can be concealed if you are creative enough. They even have concealable undershirts where you keep your gun beside your underarm in a slot, they have concealable underwear, and concealable plain looking clothes by specific manufacturers.

    In short, quit being a wuss, and get yourself an effective caliber for self defense. I would prefer a 9mm minimum myself(if i can't have my 45), but the general consensus is a .380 is good enough.

    From your young advice giver
     
  24. Deus Machina

    Deus Machina Member

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    If he's anything like my dad, there's a trick to this.

    Find a 9mm or .38 the right size for what he wants. Buy it for him, and just tell him it's cheaper.

    Try pricing a decent .25 against a decent small 9mm. It's true.
     
  25. Blakenzy

    Blakenzy Member

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    I think it really depends on the reasons behind his requirements. Obviously he wants a compact or subcompact pistol/revolver so that he can carry it around without hassle. As far as the chambering, he has expressed that he wanted something small(.22/.25). Try to identify if this requirement of his is due to a belief that small guns can only be found in those calibers, or because he dislikes big bangs. Take him shopping to see how small 9mms can go.

    One thing, body size has nothing to do with enjoying or hating a stout recoiling weapon. Perhaps he really is recoil/blast sensitive...

    ...in which case a Beretta model 70 in .32ACP is an excellent compact, little (although not really a true pocket) gun. Very accurate and light recoiling. I sneered at it the first time one was presented to me, but a magazine load and one ragged hole later I was a fan. It is very pleasant and easy to shoot.

    You see, the problem with getting a non gunperson a pocket .380 or 9mm is that their small size and light weight make them somewhat difficult to become proficient with. Having large hands might even compound the problem of getting a good hold on a tiny, stout recoiling pistol. Fact is that packing full size power in a teeny-weeny package decreases shootability, and in some cases might be downright unpleasant. So, when going sub-small, sometimes the milder caliber might actually be the wiser choice.
     
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