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Terrorists Can Use the .50 Cal Against Us...

Discussion in 'Legal' started by NIGHTWATCH, Jun 20, 2005.

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  1. NIGHTWATCH

    NIGHTWATCH Member

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  2. Beren

    Beren Moderator Emeritus

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    After discussing the appropriateness of the content with a L&P moderator, I've restored the thread. Enjoy.
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2005
  3. Double Naught Spy

    Double Naught Spy Sus Venator

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    NIGHTWATCH, you are welcome to leave the country anytime. Take the Dianetics folks with you.
     
  4. NIGHTWATCH

    NIGHTWATCH Member

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    I should leave the country because I think it important to remember? And to remind people what this arms race (gun control) is really about?

    Nice. Your a real patriot.
     
  5. Derby FALs

    Derby FALs Member In Memoriam

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    Is that the best you can come up with? Would you leave the country if you don't believe in free speech?:D
     
  6. 2nd Amendment

    2nd Amendment member

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    I believe I'd prefer those who miss the point of the poster leave the country... :rolleyes:
     
  7. cuchulainn

    cuchulainn Member

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    Setting aside the question of who has the biggest (ahem) patriotism, the poster is unlikely to convince anyone that banning .50s is a bad idea. In fact, the poster reinforces people's prejudice that those who still care about Waco are a bunch of nutjobs chomping at the bit for a fight with the feds.

    I'm not saying anyone is, in fact, a nutjob. I'm just telling you how Joe and Jane Q. Average will react to that poster.

    I wouldn't be surprised to see this poster end up in some VPC propaganda as "proof" that the gun-nuts are too wacko to be trusted with .50s -- just as that famous "voting from the rooftops" poster ended up in their propaganda.

    I've stopped being surprised at how some people on our side spoon-feed propaganda to the likes of Tom Diaz.

    Spare me the spiel about how you don't cater to political correctness. This isn't about political correctness. This is about handing propaganda to your enemies.
     
  8. auschip

    auschip Member

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    I would agree with that assesment, and push it further. I believe this would actually move people who are on the fence about .50s over to being against them.
     
  9. 2nd Amendment

    2nd Amendment member

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    Yes, the first concern must always how the anti's willutilize whatever we say or do. The first response to anything that might be manipulated by the anti's(literally anything) is to tell the poster to leave the country.
     
  10. cuchulainn

    cuchulainn Member

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    Who's missing the point? :scrutiny: Whether it should be the first concern is beside the point. It ought to be a concern -- especially in so obvious a case as this. You're trying to convince people of X, and I'm simply pointing out that you're doing nothing but help the antis convince people of anti-X.

    And don't ascribe that "leave the country" crap to me. :rolleyes:
     
  11. 2nd Amendment

    2nd Amendment member

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    I didn't. But as for a "first concern" yes, we hear the issue raised often enough that it does indeed seem to be a primary concern for at least some around here.
     
  12. cuchulainn

    cuchulainn Member

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    It's an important consideration -- especially (as in this case) when the antis would need to put zero spin and manipulation on the poster to push Joe Q. Average away from us.

    If the poster-maker is too tone-deaf to understand how and why, he has no business trying to help us. I'd just as soon have a trigger-happy blind man, spun around until he's dizzy and disoriented, protecting my six in a firecracker testing room.

    You're in a political war, and you ignore that fact to everyone's peril. It might feel good to make posters like this. The amen-corner will rev up. But in the end -- if you're lucky -- you do nothing. More likely, you hurt us. But it feels good, don't it?
     
  13. NIGHTWATCH

    NIGHTWATCH Member

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    The LEFT has learned to use images and media to manipulate the masses succesfully. And most of the time they are twisting facts or dishonest entirely. What is dishonest about this message? Is it ALARMING? Does being alarmed bother you?

    And if it felt good to make, why should it make you feel uncomfortable? Is it truth that makes you uneasy? Should what happened that day be forgotten? Or is it that this image challenges you to get your head out of the sand and offer less of a "Sporting View" of our Second Amendment? One that suggests that you may be required to give your life one day in order to preserve freedom.
     
  14. taliv

    taliv Moderator

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    my problem with the poster is that i don't get the connection between ATF jackbooted thugs and the .50 BMG.
     
  15. Preacherman

    Preacherman Member

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    Nightwatch, I think you're assuming rather too much. Posters such as this one don't "alarm" me, or make me feel "uncomfortable", or any of the other alternatives you posited. Rather, they make me feel that a whole bunch of otherwise relatively sane people have their knickers in a wad over an issue that has been grossly overblown, and are spreading alarmist propaganda that actually does more damage to our cause (which I assume is the defense of the RKBA and the 2A) than good.

    Sure, there have been Government abuses of power, in this and in other spheres. This is unacceptable, as is any abuse of power, and needs to be highlighted and fixed. However, these abuses have not been nearly so widespread as some seem to think. For every abuse of power, I could probably find a dozen or more examples where the police authority of the State has been correctly applied, in defense of the common good. To harp on the negatives without acknowledging the positives makes one look like a foaming-at-the-mouth fanatic... not good for our side, methinks.

    Balance is important. The absence of balance gives the impression that one's views are so insular and bigoted that they're not worthy of consideration by any serious analyst. Worth thinking about...
     
  16. taliv

    taliv Moderator

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    ouch, preacherman. if covering up an incident of gross abuse of power promotes a dozen correctly applied defenses of the common good, do you still support it?

    that's fundamentally the logic that the patriot act is based on.

    it's pretty much the logic that liberals use to support dictators like saddam and castro, right? I mean, so what they have to kill a few people to keep order? they're still fighting the good fight against the evil capitalist hegemony right?



    i think i'm putting words in your mouth; please correct me.
     
  17. NIGHTWATCH

    NIGHTWATCH Member

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    I see what you mean. Thanks.

    [​IMG]
     
  18. Standing Wolf

    Standing Wolf Member in memoriam

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    Truly appalling typography.
     
  19. cuchulainn

    cuchulainn Member

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    Congratulations, you win the coveted MISSING THE POINT BY A MILE AWARD for June!

    [​IMG]

    Your plaque is in the mail.
     
  20. NIGHTWATCH

    NIGHTWATCH Member

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    That is funny C. :D ... but I get the point. Some think it can hurt the cause, got it..........I disagree.

    When watching the WACO documentary there was a scene where they were covering the response from local TV and radio stations. People were calling in and commenting on the situation after Koresh decided to "wait for God".

    What disturbed me was that some of these people were calling on the FBI to just go in and end it. You could actually hear people telling the FEDS to rush the place, knowing full well that the building was filled with women and children.

    My point is that there will always be people on the LEFT and on the RIGHT who will condone murder by government as long as it is killing a political element that they dislike. Its up to us in the middle, or right of center to remind both sides that government as a whole is evil. If you disagree with that then you are on the wrong side of our history.
     
  21. El Rojo

    El Rojo Member

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    I disagree as well. Our enemies don't need any ideas of propaganda from us, they will lie and create plenty of propaganda with or without our help. The anti's could care less what we do or say really, it won't stop them from trying to take away our liberties.

    I guess the most interesting aspect of this whole undertone of "Be careful of what you say around anti's, they might use it against us" is that if what we are saying or doing isn't going to sit well with the anti's or the fence sitters, then maybe what we are doing and saying is wrong. Either the 2nd Amendment is an unalienable right inherently belonging to all human beings or it isn't. So even if there are wack jobs out there that make gun owners look bad, that shouldn't change this debate any.

    So I say make all of the posters and comparisons you want, it won't hurt me any. I am still going to talk to my friends and neighbors about liberty and freedom. I am still going to teach it in my high school classes and try and influence the next generation in the name of liberty and freedom. If they look at that poster and decide to go the other way, then someone else failed before that point and so I don't think the poster hurts us much.

    So as far as being careful of what I say and do because it might give the anti's fuel for their fire, screw that. I am not afraid of them. I am not going to cower and do anything differently with them around or not around. I am who I am, the message we are trying to spread is what it is. I know they are going to lie and deceive people to accomplish their agenda and I know the only way to stop it is to educate as many people as I can.

    As far as the content of the poster goes, it most certainly isn't my style. The ATF and FBI don't make laws, Congress does. If you want to critisize anyone, critisize politicians, not their occasional soldiers.
     
  22. Gung-Ho

    Gung-Ho member

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    Same here. :rolleyes:
     
  23. cuchulainn

    cuchulainn Member

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    Ah, so you responded with a string of glaring non sequiturs on purpose. Interesting tactic. Is that a stealth thing?
    It shouldn't, but it does. The fact is that this poster would turn potential allies away from the RKBA. You being comfortable losing those potential allies doesn't change that fact that we'll lose them.

    There are effective, ineffective and counterproductive ways to convert people. This poster is ineffective at best. I'd rather we stuck to effective ways.
     
  24. antsi

    antsi Member

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    --quote-----------------------------------
    The LEFT has learned to use images and media to manipulate the masses succesfully. And most of the time they are twisting facts or dishonest entirely. What is dishonest about this message? Is it ALARMING? Does being alarmed bother you?

    And if it felt good to make, why should it make you feel uncomfortable? Is it truth that makes you uneasy? Should what happened that day be forgotten? Or is it that this image challenges you to get your head out of the sand and offer less of a "Sporting View" of our Second Amendment? One that suggests that you may be required to give your life one day in order to preserve freedom.
    -------------------------------------------

    The poster doesn't "alarm" or "disturb" me. I simply believe it is counter-productive as a propaganda piece.

    We who favor second ammendment rights are in a propaganda war with the anti's. Both the anti's and us are fighting to win as many hearts and minds of "undecided" people over to our way of thinking. We want them to support our point of view. Our t-shirts and posters and TV commercials and press releases and everything else we use in the propaganda war has to be calculated for the effect it will have on the average undecided people who read/see/hear them.

    Yes, I happen to think the .gov was way out of line at Waco and Ruby Ridge and other incidents. But I don't think these incidents form an effective basis for pro-gun-rights propaganda. Address those incidents through other venues, yes, but don't mix up your messages in the gun rights propaganda war.

    There may be some truth to the message you are trying to get across with this poster, but that doesn't really matter in the gun rights propaganda war. Anyone who is undecided or a fence-sitter on gun rights issues is going to look at this poster and think gun owners are a bunch of whack jobs who shouldn't be allowed outdoors without supervision. This is exactly the image the antis' are trying to portray of gun owners.
     
  25. El Rojo

    El Rojo Member

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    I don't believe it will turn anyone away from us. If it does, they were never with us to begin with and we all failed by not getting out and talking to them. Personally, I don't think the anti's cruise the High Road and look for things to copy and publish. I don't think that poster is going to have a bit of an effect on anyone on the fense. That is just my opinion with just about as much validation as your opinion that the anti's use that against us and we are losing the war because of it.
     
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