Testing .45-70 on a Steel Target

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Double Naught Spy

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Ever wonder if maybe your reloads were loaded a little overly hot?

The attached image is of a MGM Half Size IPSC Silhouette Target in AR500 steel and is 1/4" thick. While the steel hardness can handle .223 and other such rifle rounds, the target is a bit thin and is really a pistol target. However, it was being used as an aim point for testing .45-70 handloads that were being chronographed. The angle of the target and other obstructions lessened the risk of bounceback impacts (although this does seem a bit naive in light of the .50 BMG bounceback video). There were no bouncebacks.

The gun was sighted well beyond the 25 yard target and first shots passed over the target and into the ground/berm beyond. As shots were brought down, impacts results. The target was not checked until after a total of 10 rounds were fired, at which time the chronograph was checked as well.

This was with 300 gr Hornady partial jacket hollowpoint with IMR 4198 powder measured at 54.0 grains fired from a H&R single shot break open rifle with a 28" barrel. It was not determined as to which shot penetrated the steel, but the average of the 10 shots was 2527 fps (10 feet from muzzle) with the difference between high and low shots of 49 feet per second and the standard deviation was 15.6 fps.

Note that there are three impacts. One glanced off the head. One in the shoulder that did not penetrate fully, but left a nice hollowpoint impression. The third impact is the penetrating shot at the belly.

FYI - These were not my reloads, my gun, or my chronograph, and the target was not leaning against a tree when shot (just posed there for the photo for better light). It was, however, my target.
 

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That's pretty interesting. I'm using the metal targets from http://metaltargets.com and I've not had any problems. The hottest I'm loading is around 2000 fps though. (I use their HV targets ..I'd guesstimate that they're 1/2 in thick) They get a little dimple where I hit them but are nowhere near penetrating. (HV is rated for .223 and .308 at 100 yards FWIW)

Have a good one,
Dave
 
i shoot 300 gr fnhp over 61 gr of 3031 in my b 78, yes they will go threw a 1/4 in steel but the crazy thing is they stay in a deer alot of times, but you never have to look for them!:D
 
I have a Buffalo Classic. Both the Remington 405 and the Speer 350gr bullets can go through some pretty heavy stuff.

I've pushed the 405's to 2100fps just to see if I could do it.
I gotten the Speer 350's to 2300fps. Judging from pressure signs, I can go a bit faster.

Now I must get some 1/4" plate and try that myself.

That's cool

ZM
 
The H&R top break isn't designed to handle that kind of loading! Lyman warns against that in one of their loading books and ranks it's strength with the Trapdoor rifles. You're playing with fire!
 
The BC will handle it. But in moderation.

Most of my loads are 405gr loads in the 1700fps territory. Avoids "blue shoulder syndrome".

My heavy loads are in Marlin territory. The 32" barrel of the BC gets a little more speed with less pressure than a 22" Handi-rifle.

Never wanted or needed to venture into Ruger #1 territory.

ZM
 
The H&R top break isn't designed to handle that kind of loading! Lyman warns against that in one of their loading books and ranks it's strength with the Trapdoor rifles. You're playing with fire!

NOPE! I just got off the phone with customer service at Marlin/NEF/H&R. I put the question to her as this; I have just purchased a buffalo classic in 45-70, what pressure levels can I safely load to? Her answer was mid level loads to the Marlin lever action levels for ALL OF THEIR SINGLE SHOT RIFLES! The reason for NOT going to Ruger single shot levels is; "wall thickness" as pertaining to the chamber walls.

Now some of their other calibers have thicker walls in the chamber area, so maybe you could approach 50,000 cup with caution. I would hesitate to do that, because repeated use can and will spring the locking lug, causing looseness.

My BC is remarkably accurate with trapdoor loads using the 300 Hornady HP. Anything more than that is painful without a magnum past pad on the shoulder. I also shot some 405 FPHP form a lee mold, with 45.0 grains of pull-down 4895. Good thing I WAS wearing that afore mentioned past pad!:what::eek:
 
This was with 300 gr Hornady partial jacket hollowpoint with IMR 4198 powder measured at 54.0 grains fired from a H&R single shot break open rifle

My Sierra Loading book lists the maximum charge of IMR 4198 as 51.8 grains for a 300 grain jacketed HP for the Marlin 1895 (new model) and the Ruger No.1 and No. 3.
The Lyman Reloading Handbook 46th Edition for the 1886 and Marlin 1895 useing the Hornady 300 grain short jacket is more conservative showing the maximum charge at only 41.0 grains of IMR 4198.
The charge for the Rugers goes to 55.0 grains for a Sierra 300 grain Flat Nose showing 35,200 C.U.P which is approx. 45,00 psi.
Maybe my books are a little outdated but I wouldn't want to be around when either of you guys are firing these loads in a topbreak rifle!
 
Zeke and Snuffy- I have some newbie questions:

I just ordered my Buffalo Classic.So you guys prefer IMR 4198,and a 300 gr bullet,loaded in the 1700 fps range?

I would prefer to avoid "blue shoulder syndrome"[at least at first,anyway].

How does a 405 gr bullet fare in accuracy?
 
I'm using AA2015.

I use the Remington 405gr bullet in the 1700 fps range. This will knock down anything I'm likely to come across here in Monsoon Central.
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=865503&t=11082005
Tough to shoot a BC for group. I can hit orange clay targets at 200 yards pretty regularly offhand. Shooting offhand is much easier on the shoulder.

Same powder for the Speer 350gr bullet. Just more of it. I can throw this one out at 2300fps. But this load is the one that generates all the pretty colors on my shoulder. I don't shoot it much.

In order to help reduce "blue shoulder syndrome" I loaded up the buttstock with two pounds of lead fishing weights. Calmed things right down.

This pad has also been recommended by some BC owners
http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/t...l&Nty=1&Ntt=Galco&noImage=0&_requestid=100228

If you decide to scope your BC. Get a scope with PLENTY of eye relief. Otherwise you'll be introduced to your new scope rudely.

Yet another gratuitous pic of my Buffalo Classic.
Adding to the retro theme is a genuine, old school, made in El Paso, steel tubed Weaver K4
Bufflergun.jpg

Good luck

ZM
 
Well, here's some 300 Hornady hp groups. These were the first fired in this new rifle.

The first pic is groups 1 and 3. The amount to the right was all it was off right from the factory. I adjusted to put the second group in the second pic, then came back up to shoot the third in the first target. Confused yet?:uhoh: Anyway this is at 50 yds, with the factory peep rear and the Lyman type globe front with the as-supplied peep front sight. I set up the chronograph for the last group at 26.0 gr. of IMR 4759. Average velocity was 1454, with an extreme spread of 11.2 and a SD of 5.3.

I also loaded some 405's with the 24.0 4759, terrible group, AV 1342, ES of 192 FPS! These were pure lead, I KNOW a good hard alloy will do better. I'll be working on that SOON!

300%20hp%20g1-3.jpg


300%20HP%20group.jpg


I'm going to try to make the pull-down surplus 4895 work. Mainly because I have 8 # of it! I also have 8# of pull-down 4759, I'd love it if it would shoot as good as the IMR stuff!;)

According to the Lyman 48th edition, I can go up to 34.0 IMR 4759 with a 292 gr. lead bullet. Reducing that by 10% for a jacketed bullet, I can get close to 1700 if not a bit over that. The 32 inch barrel might even break 1800 fps!

This is gonna be fun! Don't you just love working up loads for a new rifle?¿:scrutiny:
 
Maybe my books are a little outdated but I wouldn't want to be around when either of you guys are firing these loads in a topbreak rifle!

Let me understand just why you have a bias against top break single shot rifles. I guess all those encore rifles made by TC can't handle factory rifle ammo loaded to the hilt? Even the old contenders could handle lever action rifle rounds without a problem.

You are right though, his load, as stated is OVER anything I can find listed for any lever gun.
 
Wow-
I really can't wait to get started now!

[Feel free to post all the pics of this great rifle that you want]

Thanks a ton for all the info,guys!

I will post some pics and info after I take mine out and cripple myself with it.:evil:
 
Let me understand just why you have a bias against top break single shot rifles. I guess all those encore rifles made by TC can't handle factory rifle ammo loaded to the hilt? Even the old contenders could handle lever action rifle rounds without a problem.

You are right though, his load, as stated is OVER anything I can find listed for any lever gun.

Snuffy, I have no bias at all against them...I like them very much and own three top breaks...a H&R 20 gauge...an NEF .410 and a Savage 24V .357 Magnum/20 gauge. The problem I have is when someone dangerously overloads a cartridge. The top breaks don't have the benefit of it's chamber area being supported around it by a receiver like a bolt action or lever action, nor any gas escape ports.
If a case ruptures from that overload in the original posting whats going to happen? Either that gas is going to blow backwards or outwards or both and if the barrel bursts I just don't wish to be around when that shrapnel is flying!
My older Hornady load book lists a charge of just over 54 grains of IMR 4198 for it's 300 grain bullet and although it mentions in it's text the Marlin the actual test rifle was a Ruger No. 1. It's not a loading I would ever use in my Marlin 1895SS...I value myself and the rifle too much!
 
What I am surprised to find (all the time by the way) Is trying to go over what is safe and prudent. Reloads are for what is working up a safe and reliable load. Not heavy and dangerous. If you want to do that you are just asking for trouble I have seen:confused:

When I was heavily involved with a range back in the 80's it was ridiculous at times. Had to tell them go out in the woods and do it, not here for others to be injured :what:

The Contenders were really popular at that time, man o man...:uhoh:

So if you do want to shoot some heavies get the gun that will do it right.

I have an old 1917 Enfield in 458 mag with a total weight of about 20 pounds, got a barrel on it that is most of the weight;)

Forget that wimpy 45-70:neener:

HQ
 
Harley
I agree...I stopped loading my Marlin 1895SS to the upper but safe levels because it was uncomfortable to shoot and was no need for it. I had made for me a .458 Win Mag on a Czech VZ 24 Mauser action...nowhere near as heavy as yours but with my loads of linotype 300 grain bullets at 2,100 fps it was a pleasure to shoot with no need for a recoil shield strapped to my shoulder. The same bullet pushed to the same velocity in my Marlin was just this side of brutal when shooting off the bench!
 
What I am surprised to find (all the time by the way) Is trying to go over what is safe and prudent. Reloads are for what is working up a safe and reliable load. Not heavy and dangerous. If you want to do that you are just asking for trouble I have seen

Yes, I agree, BUT why not take full advantage of what a rifle has to offer? If it can go to a certain level, why not go there?

Snuffy, I have no bias at all against them...I like them very much and own three top breaks...a H&R 20 gauge...an NEF .410 and a Savage 24V .357 Magnum/20 gauge. The problem I have is when someone dangerously overloads a cartridge.

On the same note, what I said above. AS LONG AS you can shoot it accurately, without getting a sore shoulder, and developing a flinch! H&R says I can load it to modern leveraction levels. I want an accurate 300 HP load for fun shooting, and an accurate lead load or 3 for serious stuff.
 
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Bluehawk mentions:
Harley
I agree...I stopped loading my Marlin 1895SS to the upper but safe levels because it was uncomfortable to shoot and was no need for it. I had made for me a .458 Win Mag on a Czech VZ 24 Mauser action...nowhere near as heavy as yours but with my loads of linotype 300 grain bullets at 2,100 fps it was a pleasure to shoot with no need for a recoil shield strapped to my shoulder. The same bullet pushed to the same velocity in my Marlin was just this side of brutal when shooting off the bench!
******************
When I first got this shooter it was in the rough (still is) I was going to have it finished and fixed up.
But I went and shot it LOL it was like a 6mm in recoil LOL... I never changed it. I will never give it up. Talk about nice.
I carried a BAR, in the Corps and figured hey this can work. If I need a bearer I'll get one;)

But it is not going to be over loaded that is for sure.
Someone mentioned a "Lott ream" but hey, I'll stick with this:)

As I get older money seems to be scarcer for shooters Hmmm:what:
 
Guys, try re7 for the .45/70. I used it for 305 gr. and 400 gr. and the pressure is much less and the velocity is much more. Accuracy was great until I went too much powder and the hollow point bullets opened up in flight. Then I had no idea where it would go. I backed the load down immediately.:banghead:
 
Magille said: "the hollow point bullets opened up in flight"
I'm sure we're all curious as to how you could possibly tell a hollow point bullet opened up in flight?? Please let us know exactly what bullet that is...manufacturer, weight, etc.
 
How does a 405 gr bullet fare in accuracy?

Ok you asked!

.458-405.jpg


THE FOLLOWING LOADS WERE ALL CHECKED IN THE LYMAN 48TH LOADING MANUAL. THEY ARE SAFE IN MY H&R BUFFALO CLASSIC, WOULD BE SAFE IN THAT RIFLE OR A LEVER ACTION RIFLE.

Yesterday was range day for some lead boolit loads I had worked up. The above group was as follows; Lee .458 405 grain rnfp HB,(hollow base), 31.5 grains of IMR 4198. Velocity was AV 1463 with an extreme spread of 70.1 and a SD of 30.2, 5 shots@ 50 yds.. This could stand a little more of a work up, it was suggested by a poster on cast boolits.com. Oh, it was also about as high as I want to go as far as recoil goes. I can't explain that flyer, maybe closer quality control of as-cast boolits would eliminate it. It was windy also, another explanation,(excuse?).

Here's what the boolits look like;

P9030002.JPG


I did go higher in terms of power with some loads of WC-846 49.0 yielded 1720 fps with vicious recoil and lousy accuracy. Probably pushing that boolit too fast, needs to be harder to go that high.

Other results yesterday were with a lee .457-340-F lead boolit. This is a double cavity mold, no pics tho.

.458-340%20fp.jpg


27.5 of surplus,(gibrass.com), 4759 yielded a velocity AV 1560 with a 20.0 ES and 8.2 SD. Recoil was very tolerable, 40 grains less boolit weight and moderate velocity helps make it very shootable. Best part is economy, that powder was only $80.00 for 8 pounds! The lead is nearly free, my time is cheap/no cost, and minimal electricity for melting.

I can make and load those cheaply and often, and if they continue to shoot that well, I'm a happy camper!

That buff classic is turning out to be a sweet shooting rifle. I wanted a big bore rifle that could shoot cast boolits AND jacketed, looks like I got what I wanted.
 
Cheese & Rice!

DNS is approaching my Ruger #1, 405gr/2150fps/Re7 loads with those top-break zingers!

I'd be curious to see what kind of chamber pressures he's generating. :what:

I have been toying with my 32" Sharps and 550gr cast spitzers, albeit at a sedate BP 1200fps. I've got a bunch of cinder blocks ready for demolition...
 
FYI - These were not my reloads, my gun, or my chronograph, and the target was not leaning against a tree when shot (just posed there for the photo for better light). It was, however, my target.

According to the reloader and gun owner, the pressures were in the Ruger #1 end of the scale. So they were most definitely higher than would be suggested for the H&R as noted by snuffy's information from H&R. As I recall, that would put it around 50K+ psi.
 
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