Tex Grebner : SERPA : Bullets to the leg

[possum]

As to the "professional trainers", far more often what I've seen from that group is basically internet commandos that decided to open up a class.

hahahaha, that makes me laugh,obviously you do not know much about the trainers in the training industry. I don't have to ask how many courses you have been too and how many trainers you know personally, I am guessing none. I know quite a few, and work with them on a regular basis. I am also not going to list the names of every instructor that I can think of off the top of my head that is not close to your description.

Ken Hackathorn is an internet commando turned trainer.
wow. (he was doing it before it was cool, and he was doing it probably before you were born) I will leave it at that for now. If this instructor bashing continues, my list will continue.

 

[Corey]

I will continue to use one for the foreseeable future. When so-called "experts" at training schools don't allow them, it just reinforces my choice

Wow. Just wow. So when anybody with enough experience and who has seen enough examples first hand to spot any problems or disturbing trends says something about it then we should do the opposite of what they warn. I guess we should all smoke 10 packs a day of cigarettes because it is only a bunch of "so called" medical experts who say it is bad for your health, right? I mean, institutions like Gunsite and highly respected and experienced trainers like LAV, and Hackathorn, and Todd Green who have seen thousands of students of all skill levels do who knows how many draws from holsters over a few decades; well what could they possibly know about guns and holsters.

Saying it was operator error and training issue is like looking at any particular car crash and saying it was driver error. Technically it might be true but it is of no value in assessing the situation and learning how others can avoid it in the future. Yes, Tex (and everyone else who has done the same thing with a Serpa) pulled the trigger when they should not have, operator error plain and simple. But why were they putting pressure with trigger finger towards the trigger while drawing the gun? Could it be that the Serpa requires you to do that in order to get the gun out of the holster? Is this something that could have contributed to this and similar accidents? Why does this type of accident occur so much more often with Serpa type holsters than with others? Is it that Serpa users have less skill, or maybe something about the design makes it easier for this to happen? Note that I did not say the holster design caused the accident, only that it made it easier for it to occur.

Of course, if we all just chant "keep your booger hook off the bang switch" like a magic incantation and say we are smarter and better than the idiot that put a round in his leg then we don't have to put any effort into thinking and analyzing risk and we get to feel superior at the same time

 

[Frozen North]

Of course, if we all just chant "keep your booger hook off the bang switch" like a magic incantation and say we are smarter and better than the idiot that put a round in his leg then we don't have to put any effort into thinking and analyzing risk and we get to feel superior at the same time

But he did have his booger hook on the bang button... That's how the vast majority of NDs happen. No magic holster or 15lb trigger pull will keep you from shooting yourself in the leg If you can't learn to keep your finger off the trigger until you are not covering your leg.

It's always the stupid holster, the stupid trigger, or some other excuse. He tried to be a hot shot and he obviously forgot about rule 2 and 3 in the process. If you violate two rules at the same time, you are begging for an ND.

Saying it was operator error and training issue is like looking at any particular car crash and saying it was driver error.

You know that most car crashes are caused by driver error right? That Toyota gas pedal thing fell all apart when they investigated it. If you ask the driver in error, they always have a good excuse. We have some hard set driving laws too. When people ignore them, crashes happen. That whole fiasco cost Toyota a whole bunch of money, even though they were found to be completely without fault. Now we have people misusing a perfectly safe and functional holster and shooting themselves in the leg. I suppose Toyota should have put the brake and the gas three feet apart and Blackhawk should remind people not to curl their finger during the draw. Maybe some more warning labels will help.

And you guys gripe about lawyerized guns.....

 

[ATW525]

The 100% sure way to never have an ND is to never handle a firearm.

Once you make the choice to handle one, it basically comes down to risk management and how much risk you're willing to accept. Everybody is different and I've seen people that carry with an empty chamber and safety on, and those who think the four rules only apply to lesser beings. Tex simply took on a combination of risk factors that turned out to be more than he was capable of handling.

 

[Corey]

Thanks for making my point Frozen North.

Here is another example. Airline pilots have years of training and experience, regular evaluations and continuing education, and detailed, highly realistic simulations to train in handling almost any emergency. In spite of that, every year a few pilots will screw up and kill a few hundred people due to pilot error. The airline industry does not deal with it by telling other pilots "Hey you guys, don't screw up" nor do other pilots say, "that guy was an idiot, I'm better than him so it won't happen to me." Instead, the crash is researched, the actions and decisions made leading up to the crash are analysed and studied to see what may have contributed to or agrravated the pilot error and what can be done different in the future to minimize the risk.

As for you quoting my car accident comparison, if you are teaching drivers (especially people who are driving for a living) and your response to every real life example of a crash is: It was driver error, therefore don't make errors and everything will be fine; what is the lesson, what learning or training has taken place?

In the firearms world many are stuck on "he was stupid, I'm smarter and better, end of analysis" school of thought

 

[GCBurner]

I looked at the SERPA holsters when I was gearing up for IDPA competition, and liked their retention feature. I decided to go for a passive retention holster, where I don't have to hit a button or unsnap a snap to draw, though, and wound up with a Fobus instead. It makes it simpler to keep my trigger finger extended until the gun is in front of me, and the sights are on the target.

 

[David E]

Regardless of the holster, why did he take off the safety before the gun was pointing forward?

 

[GCBurner]

Regardless of the holster, why did he take off the safety before the gun was pointing forward?

Some people go for speed, and hit the safety during the draw in action pistol competition. There was a guy disqualified for that in a recent match, who did something similar to what's in the video, firing the first shot as his 1911 cleared the holster. Luckily, it just hit the ground in front of him, and not his leg.

 

[David E]

Those people are stupid!

We have two words for people like that: "Hey! Gimpy!"

 

[Corey]

Regardless of the holster, why did he take off the safety before the gun was pointing forward?

Tex explained in his video that prior to using the Serpa and 1911 he had been using a 5.11 thumb drive with a Glock and had been doing drills with it for a couple of hours. The 5.11 uses a retention mechanism where you release it by pressing down with your thumb about the same way you release the safety on a 1911. Obviously, that holster is for guns without a thumb safety. Now he switched rigs and simply duplicated the movement he had been practicing. Good lesson here is that switching equipment in the middle of a practice session might not be the best idea. Maybe one should have seperate practice sessions on seperat days for different equipment, or keep as much gear as possible the same.

I have seen a few ND's in training by people, both with live ammo and sims. I have also talked to trainers who have seen a lot more ND's than me and read reports on training accidents. Here is my reasoning on the Serpa issue.

I assume that as a group, Serpa users are equal to users of other holsters in terms of intelligence, skill and ability to use caution. From my experience ND's while reholstering happen about equally across types of holsters. ND's while drawing occur significantly more often with the Serpa than with other types of holsters. Therefore, I think (and smarter more experienced people than me also think) that there is something about the design of the Serpa holster that increases the chances of an accident happening during the draw. If Serpa defenders wish to insist that the real reason is that Serpa users are actually less intelligent, less skilled, and/or more careless than the users of other holsters then they are welcome to make that argument. To me that is still a good reason to avoid the Serpa.

And for the record I have used the Serpa and trained people using the Serpa, but because it was the required holster, not because I thought it was the best one.

 

[JDGray]

Serpa holsters are junk! Any holster that can malfunction and lock your gun in and you can't get it out, should be recalled. But the gun wont fire itself, so you cant blame the serpa on that

 

[mgmorden]

Serpa holsters are junk! Any holster that can malfunction and lock your gun in and you can't get it out, should be recalled. But the gun wont fire itself, so you cant blame the serpa on that

The holster didn't malfunction. It has a retention mechanism (a release button) that he did not press. When he went to curl his finger into the trigger guard (BEFORE he was on target - the root of the problem here) he hit the release, the gun came out - like it is supposed to - and his finger jammed onto the trigger.

The retention mechanism isn't supposed to let go until it is activated, in order to increase the difficultly of someone just grabbing the gun and disarming you. In this case the holster 100% behaved *exactly* the way it was supposed to. The shooter is what malfunctioned.

 

[jim goose]

I am taking a different route. I blame the loaded gun. Some say they can become dangerous in the wrong hands or conditions.

I am not knocking the guy, and I give him credit for publishing the video, but this guy was out there ALONE, filming himself doing cqc drills.

Thank god the cellphone worked properly.

 

[marb4]

To all those who keep repeating the "keep your booger hook off the bang switch" quote as though it were original here is my reply. My index finger has never been an effective booger hook. My pinky has always been much better suited to that task.

 

[GLOOB]

If Serpa defenders wish to insist that the real reason is that Serpa users are actually less intelligent, less skilled, and/or more careless than the users of other holsters then they are welcome to make that argument.

You're the one making that argument. I'm calling it like it is. The Serpa users that have this particular ND are less coordinated and/or more careless than average.

This is the same argument as "Glocks are flawed." No they're not. If you want a weapon that EVERYONE can use without hurting themselves, then you'd end up with a Nerf toy.

Some people can't pat their head and rub their belly at the same time. Some people can't chew gun and walk at the same time. Some people can't use a Serpa holster without shooting themselves in the leg. And some people just shouldn't handle firearms, cars, or heavy machinery.

To me that [being less coordinated or more careless than the average bear] is still a good reason to avoid the Serpa.

Yup. There's no shame in admitting you can't be trusted to handle a Glock, or a Toyota, or a Serpa holster.

Therefore, I think (and smarter more experienced people than me also think) that there is something about the design of the Serpa holster that increases the chances of an accident happening during the draw.

It's obvious what is happening. The same finger is called upon to do two things. The people that have ND's have it in their head to use this finger to 1. release holster 2. pull trigger.

The people that can safely use a Serpa have 2 different actions for that finger. 1. Release holster 2. keep finger straight and off trigger. And they're also the type of people that can probably chew gum and walk at the same time.

I put my straight trigger finger against the side of the slide as I draw and aim, no matter how much of a hurry I'm in. The button on a Serpa is positioned so that it gets pressed automatically when I do this. My finger does this no matter what type of holster I'm using, and no matter what kind of action or safety my pistol has. Then again, I'm not trying to break any records. If you ARE trying to break records, then you'll need to take some shortcuts - at your own risk.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

I am taking a different route. I blame the loaded gun.

I don't know how you practice actually shooting without a loaded gun.

Some say they can become dangerous in the wrong hands or conditions.

That is what makes guns useful. A gun that does actually fire a bullet is just a rock and not much more.

I am not knocking the guy, and I give him credit for publishing the video, but this guy was out there ALONE, filming himself doing cqc drills.

And the fact that he was filming himself has nothing to do with the accident occurring. Besides, lots of folks film themselves as a matter of being a training aid. You can see on video that which you can feel or recognize occurring during the act itself.

 

[0to60]

Years and years ago, motorcycles didn't have the current clutch and shifter setup. They had something called a "suicide shifter". This was basically a shift lever, just like in a car, next to the gas tank and it required the rider to take his hand off the handlebar to shift. It was called "suicide shifter" because there was a bit of danger built into the design. Every guy that ever dumped his bike while shifting COULD have avoided it somehow. But does that absolve the design? In my opinion no, because someone eventually came out with a design that did the same job just as well, but reduced the number of accidents.

The subject of accidental discharges comes up from time to time and is always polarizing. Yes, with enough due diligence an operator of anything can avoid accidents. But can we at least agree that some designs require more due diligence than others?

 

[sturmgewehr]

Chris Cerino, who I would say is a respected LEO firearms instructor and even appeared on Top Shot (not that this qualifies someone as an expert). He had an AD with the SERPA which resulted in a wound quite similar in nature to the one Tex had.

Here's what he had to say about it:

When you engage in dangerous activities sometimes you get hurt. I didn't hurt anyone but myself. It was a learning experience.
I was using a new holster (serpa) which requires me to use my trigger finger to unlock the retention device.

When the button didn't work I pushed and pulled harder. Look at what your fingers do when you grip something harder and pull harder.
The trigger finger slipped into the trigger guard and carried on thru the trigger. I shot myself high in the front of my pelvis and down my leg.

The picture of his wound:

So we have a relatively inexperienced shooter having nearly the same experience (flubbing the draw, pushing harder, finger drops to trigger, gun discharges) as a highly trained and respected firearms instructor.

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

Regardless of the holster, why did he take off the safety before the gun was pointing forward?

Taking the safety off is irrelvant, he could have done this with a Glock. When I had a Hi Power as my defensive handgun I flicked the safety off while it was clearing the holster, if it could somehow fire itself because I took the safety off it wouldn't have been my defensive firearm at all.

 

[john5036]

The Serpa works if you are not in a rush trying to quickdraw in a defensive posture while stressed and running on adrenaline. I personally like the Fobus styles. No finger work, just straight up draw.

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

For me the Serpa works for everything including quickdraws. Wouldn't have it if I couldn't.

 

[WinThePennant]

I don't think people are understanding the notion of risk mitigation.

 

[possum]

I don't understand why people would opt for a retention device on a holster when they were not mandated that they have too. IE LEO's etc. If I have the choice (which I do) I carry an open top kydex, no retention strap, button, thumb break etc. They have their place, however not for me in the context of daily carry.

 

[Rinspeed]

I don't understand why people would opt for a retention device on a holster when they were not mandated that they have too.

I have no clue why someone would want one, maybe some of you that use a Serpa could elaborate on exactly what they are supposed to do for you.

 

[dirtykid]

Blaming a holster for a ND is like blaming your car for getting a flat tire, muscle memory should teach you to keep your index-finger "pointing" towards the intended target until sights are aligned, I've practiced quick-draw from my Serpa with my sub-compact glock (unloaded) 100's of times and NEVER once did i find my finger inside the trigger-guard