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Texas CHL & traffic law??

Discussion in 'Legal' started by westex, Jun 7, 2004.

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  1. westex

    westex Member

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    My daughter called tonight and asked me a couple of questions I could not answer for certain. Help out there?

    Passenger is given a ticket for "improper wearing of seat belt". Belt was locked but shoulder strap was under right arm and not over right shoulder. She said it was a girl thing. Where could I look to find law about the required position of a seat belt?

    Officer came back to car and gave her a hard time because she didn't tell him she had a CHL. She told him she didn't have a gun on her so she didn't need to show her CHL. I think this has been discussed before but don't remember if anyone cited the law on this (not whether it's best or proper but exactly what the law says on this). Oh yes, I jumped her case for not packing.
     
  2. Sylvilagus Aquaticus

    Sylvilagus Aquaticus Member

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    Yep, she is compelled by the statute to give the LEO her CHL along with her TXDL. She should inform the LEO at that time that she is (obviously) a CHL holder and that she is/is not carrying at that time. Good form would be to additionally state where the handgun is, if carrying, and ask the LEO for his instructions, if any, if he needs 'to be put at ease'.

    I am not an attorney, but this is what was told me by an attorney who teaches that certain part of CHL classes in the Dallas area.

    Oh, and the passenger had the ticket coming. That's the wrong way to wear her belt, but the right way to snap her spine at about T5 or end up ejected from the vehicle.


    Regards,
    Rabbit.
     
  3. Gillster

    Gillster Member

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    § 411.205. DISPLAYING LICENSE; PENALTY. (a) If a
    license holder is carrying a handgun on or about the license
    holder's person when a magistrate or a peace officer demands that
    the license holder display identification, the license holder shall
    display both the license holder's driver's license or
    identification certificate issued by the department and the license
    holder's handgun license. A person who fails or refuses to display
    the license and identification as required by this subsection is
    subject to suspension of the person's license as provided by
    Section 411.187.

    What I was told and what this looks like it says is that if armed it must be declared. Texas DPS CHL FAQ site says you don't need to have your permit with you if not armed so it shouldn't be a requirement when stopped to show your CHL with your DL. I've been stopped twice since I recieved my CHL, once armed once not, showed it when armed, didn't even come up when not armed, both stops went smoothly (and without tickets).
    I am not a lawyer and don't play one on TV but the IF being the first word looks like the pertenent word.

    Chris
     
  4. O.F.Fascist

    O.F.Fascist Member

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    http://www.buckleuptexas.com/seatbeltlaws/

    Go down about halfway on the page and you get this title "545.413. Safety Belts; Offense."

    However it doesnt say anything about how the seatbelt has to be worn, but it tells you where you can find that.

    So we have to scroll back to the top of the page which is Section 545.412. This is what it says.

    Heh, hopefully they didnt shake down your daughter's friend too badly.
     
  5. HankB

    HankB Member

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    You have to hand over your CHL with your DL if you happen to be carrying at the moment.

    Hmmm . . . this is the first time I've heard of a JBT ticketing a passenger. I guess he had a quota to meet before his next Krispy Kreme stop. What if the passenger didn't have a driver's license, or any other form of acceptable ID? :confused:
     
  6. MacPelto

    MacPelto Member

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    Part of the new "Click It or Ticket" campaign, no doubt.
     
  7. Smoke

    Smoke Member

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    IF you are not armed, you do Not have to show your CHL or inform the officer that yo have one.

    The seat belt thing is another matter. The reason women are required to wear the shoulder strap properly is it "accentuates" the breasts so the officer can get a better view.

    :D :D

    Smoke
     
  8. TallPine

    TallPine Member

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    Sounds like a police state to me ...
     
  9. bshepherd

    bshepherd Member

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    I am a big advocate of wearing seat belts properly. I used to jump my son's s@%t when I saw him without it or worn improperly. I am pretty libertarian minded on most things, but not on this. If they could figure out how to make the dead and injured pay for their own treatment for injuries suffered by not wearing a belt then maybe. And what about the time and money caused by having first responders on the scene for hours when a fatality results versus an hour when the folks were all buckled up. If you dont wear a belt you are going to get hurt if you are in a wreck, often the rest of us pay for it cause they take you to the county hospital because you have no insurance.
    Ben in TX
     
  10. Brad Johnson

    Brad Johnson Member

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    The only legal requirement to present it if requested by a member of law enforcement. However, it's always a good idea let them know up front. That way they know you are one of the good guys from the get-go. Not mentioning it and letting the officer find out when he/she runs your tags just makes a red flag go up in their mind.

    As far as seat belts go, you must wear them in accordance with the way they were designed to operate - across the lap and across the chest. Failure to do so will get you a costly reminder.

    I think that buckling up is a good idea, but the that we are forced to do so under threat proscecution is another rant. I put it in the same category as being fined for being overweight.

    Brad
     
  11. auschip

    auschip Member

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    Does that mean I should be able to write any excercise equipment/weight loss programs off on my taxes? :D
     
  12. Brad Johnson

    Brad Johnson Member

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    Not unless I can write off chicken fried steak as a business expense.

    Brad
     
  13. westex

    westex Member

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    Brad
    There's no doubt that chicken fried steak and BBQ are both expense items, at least in my books.

    Thanks for all the info. It appears that everyone is in basic agreement that if you're not carrying then legally you do not have to show you CHL. Everyone except Sylvilagus and his attorney/instructor(?).

    Re: Proper use of seatbelt
    It appears she was in violation of the law in this matter. I wouldn't ride without one although I resent being told I have to wear one.

    Thanks again.
     
  14. TarpleyG

    TarpleyG Member

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    As for the seat belt question, I do not know. As for the CHL license needing to be handed over if you are not carrying--in the two CHL classes I took when in TX, they specifically stated that if we weren't carrying, we didn't have to hand it over. I believe the law outlines this as well unless something has changed since '99.

    Greg
     
  15. Hawkmoon

    Hawkmoon Member

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    Most states that require you to notify LEOs at all (some don't require it even when carrying) onlhy require you to notify if you are carrying. The Texas citation seems clear on this ... IF you are carrying ...
    I can't resent being told to wear one because I won't drive the length of a parking lot without. However, I have no problem with other people being required to wear one, for the simple reason that accidents happen. I consider myself both a safe driver and a good driver, but ... accidents happen. If I am involved in an accident which may be partially or completely my fault, I want the occupants of the other vehicle to be injured as little as possible. If that means having the local gendarmerie conduct weeky seatbelt roadblocks, that's fine with me.

    BTW -- be thankful your daughter wasn't driving in New York. In the Empire State, seat belts are mandatory but they don't ticket passengers who don't buckle up ... they ticket the driver, and it's a separate infraction for each unbelted occupant.
     
  16. Deavis

    Deavis Member

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    Gillster is right, you do not have to show the CHL if you are not armed. However, when the cop runs your DL, he will know that you have a CHL because it pops up on your record in the car. That is why they ask you if you are carrying a gun, if you didn't give it up, because you were supposed to surrender it if you were. There is no legal reason to give it over if you are not carrying.


    Seatbelt laws, punishing adult citizens for exercising their right to risk their life as they see fit. Nannying on a state-wide level.
     
  17. nemesis

    nemesis Member

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    Excerpted from the DPS Texas Concealed Handgun laws............

     
  18. Hawkmoon

    Hawkmoon Member

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    A minor elaboration on my position regarding seatbelts: In an ideal world, people would not be required to wear seatbelts and motorcyclists (and their passengers) would not be required to wear helmets. However, in this ideal world, those who choose not to wear seatbelts and not to wear helmets on motorcycles would be held accountable for exercising their right to choose.

    Thus, in the event I might cause an accident in which someone is seriously injured, and that person (or his/her legal representative, if it came to that) decided to sue me for a zillion dollars because I turned this person into a paraplegic (or vegetable) ... if that person was not using the seatbelts provided in his/her car, or was riding a motorcycle without wearing a helmet, then IMHO if medical experts testify that the extent of the injuries would have been far less severe and far less incapacitating had the person been using the seatbelt or wearing the helmet, then dammit I should be absolved of responsibility on the spot.

    It ain't a one-way street. If you want to enjoy the freedom of NOT using common-sense safety equipment, then suck it up and accept the consequences if you get clobbered.

    [/Rant Mode]
     
  19. Brad Johnson

    Brad Johnson Member

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    The bottom line in Texas is...

    - If you are carrying you are required to have your CHL with you.

    - If you are carrying and an LEO asks to see your CHL you are required to present it.

    - If you are stopped by an LEO it is strongly suggested that you present your CHL up front, but you are not required to unless requested.

    Brad
     
  20. westex

    westex Member

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    Brad
    Are you saying that if I'm stopped for a traffic violation I do not have to show my CHL (assuming I'm carrying) unless asked by the officer? I thought in this case the law required your CHL to be shown at the same time when your DL was requested.

    There seems to be some divergence of opinion and to what the law actual requires and what some people think might be proper. What someone thinks might be the thing to do differs a lot of times from what the law actually requires. Is this the case here?
     
  21. twency

    twency Member

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    Where does it end? Studies show that five point restraints are more effective than three point restraints. We've already mandated front seat three-pointers because they're more effective than two. Why don't we just mandate five pointers for all seats in all news cars, because ... accidents happen.

    While we're at it, howsabout we not allow people to own dangerous toys, like firearms? Why shouldn't we trade a little more liberty for a little more security? We all know that accidents certainly happen with firearms. See my sig.

    -twency

    _________
    "The parent who complained, Karen Young, doesn't want fish-shaped toy guns in her house because she accidentally shot an ex-boyfriend one time when the gun she was beating him with went off."
     
  22. sevenpoint62mm

    sevenpoint62mm Member

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    In Texas you have to surrender your CHL card with your DL/Insurance. Period. You don't not have to tell him if you are or are not armed unless he asks but its a good idea to with th elocation and tpye your carrying.

    What happens if you don't? Well as soon as he runs your licences he sees this:

    ***********************************************************
    ___________________________________________________________
    ***********************************************************
    WARNING WARNING! THIS PERSON HAS A CHL PERMIT IS CONSIDERED ARMED

    WARNING WARNING! THIS PERSON HAS A CHL PERMIT IS CONSIDERED ARMED

    *************************************************************
    _____________________________________________________________
    *************************************************************

    Its red, flashing, and scares the hell out of a cop even if she's 19 year old blonde princess with pigtails. Its an arrestable offense btw and can get your CHL yanked.
     
  23. bshepherd

    bshepherd Member

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    In Texas you have to present your CHL to an officer if you are carrying. Its also a good idea to tell him where it is. I have done this twice in the last few weeks, handed him my stuff and told him it was under the seat. No problems whatsoever. If you are not carrying you do not have to show him your license. You do not even have to have your license with you. Common sense would dictate that while you are handing over your license and insurance card you also say to him something to the effect, "I'm a CHL holder, but do not have a handgun in my possesion" That will forewarn him to the little warning that pops up when he runs your DL.

    Not intended as legal advice, but it makes more sense than what some
    f@#&*%g lawyers will tell you

    Ben in TX

    God Bless Ronald Reagan
     
  24. westex

    westex Member

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    sevenpoint
    After posting this thread a couple of days ago I've recieved an education. From reading the actual law it states that ONLY if you are carrying a weapon do you have to present your CHL when asked for your DL. What goes off on the LEOs screen when your DL is inputed is immaterial. And by the way I'm offended if it really does say "Warning Warning! This person has a CHL is considered armed" in red flashing letters. Can anyone varify that this is what is sent out.

    I don't see any arrestable offense here nor any danger of having a license revoked.
     
  25. DJW

    DJW Member

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    Westex;
    you are absolutely right. if not carrying you do not have to inform the officer of the fact that you have a CHL. the last time I did a ride along here in Austin I got to talking to the officer and asked about the "warning" that is supposed to show up on his VDT. he said to go ahead and type in my info and lo and behold it came up with my pertinent info but did NOT even mention the fact that I have a valid CHL. this was about a year ago so they may have updated the system since then. when this happened I had been in possession of a CHL for about 6 years. anyway, seems that mis-information abounds on the internet as always. take care and favor center.
    DJW
     
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