Texas conceal carry printing rumor or fact?

Discussion in 'Legal' started by tackstrp, Apr 5, 2010.

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  1. tackstrp

    tackstrp Member

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    I keep hearing the same rumor over and over here in Texas you are not allowed to show a print of a hand gun in a front procket. I dont remember that from the conceal carry class. i recall just the opposite. Make sure your weapon is covered in public is what i remember.
     
  2. nalioth

    nalioth Member

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    The law says you have to intentionally expose your firearm. It doesn't say anything about "printing".

    Bending over at the home improvement store and providing a nice bas-relief of your carry piece isn't gonna get you sent to jail.
     
  3. Beaux Nehr

    Beaux Nehr Member

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    Concealed means concealed.

    If you know that you're printing, it's intentional.
     
  4. TexasRifleman

    TexasRifleman Moderator Emeritus

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    There is no such concept as "printing" in Texas law. The gun is either exposed or it's not.

    The concept that the obvious outline of a handgun under clothing etc is "exposed" is not addressed in Texas law.

    All the law says is:

     
  5. MattTheHat

    MattTheHat Member

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    A t-shirt that says "No, that's not my CCW, I'm just happy to see you."


    -Matt
     
  6. Beaux Nehr

    Beaux Nehr Member

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    You are absolutely right about the text of the law.

    However, I was under the assumption that there was statutory law behind "printing" which was resulted from the tamer versions of brandishing.
     
  7. nalioth

    nalioth Member

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    "Brandishing" still requires intent.

    If your jacket flies up on a windy day and your pistol is exposed, you're not brandishing. If you lean over really far in the home improvement store and your shirt comes untucked, exposing your pistol, you're not brandishing.

    If you open your jacket to show someone your piece with intent to put fear in to them - that's brandishing.



    I do wish folks would get the thought "any exposure of a carried handgun is brandishing" out of their heads, as that's not how it works (at least in the free states).
     
  8. tackstrp

    tackstrp Member

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    thanks all is as i thought. Still always that person in a store that will run to the store manager and cause embrassement. No law will protect us from the gun haters.
     
  9. lwdaniel

    lwdaniel Member

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    Texas State Law on concealed carry has this definition for concealed handgun.

    (3) "Concealed handgun" means a handgun, the presence of
    which is not openly discernible to the ordinary observation of a reasonable
    person.

    so use caution when carrying.
     
  10. Vicious-Peanut

    Vicious-Peanut Member

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    Herein lies the problem. There are none anymore.
     
  11. TexasRifleman

    TexasRifleman Moderator Emeritus

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    Yes, but that definition is not in the Penal Code. That is in Gov Code 411, an administrative code. A prosecutor might refer to that in a trial or he might not. It's simply not defined in the Penal Code.

    There is no specific law on "brandishing" in Texas either. There is the Disorderly Conduct section which has this to say :

    And, there is an exception to that in the "Justified Threat of Force" section.

    Again, "printing", "brandishing" or whatever you want to call exposure of a handgun clearly requires an intent to show it, not accidental display.

    You and me both.
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2010
  12. Boba Fett

    Boba Fett Member

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    Our CHL instructor warned us about printing. I don't recall our instructor saying it was illegal so much as you should be concerned with having someone call the police and being arrested, shot, etc.
     
  13. rm23

    rm23 Member

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    I hate NY... so I moved to Texas!
    How about an open carry law?
     
  14. nalioth

    nalioth Member

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    You should read more of THR.

    Even in the more open-minded-about-guns states with open carry, Sally Soccermom still bleats her way to the store manager / cell-phones "man with a gun" to the police when she sees legal open carriers in the home improvement store. . . .

    It'll be wonderful to have open carry here, but it ain't gonna fix the ostrich among us. . . .
     
  15. TexasRifleman

    TexasRifleman Moderator Emeritus

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    Arrested for what? Shot for what? Paranoia it sounds like to me.......
     
  16. Boba Fett

    Boba Fett Member

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    Our instructor wasn't being paranoia so much as explaining how sheeple think about firearms.

    Example: you're at the Walmart/7-11/Taco Bell/etc., your firearm prints, someone sees it and freaks out and calls the police (most likely unbeknownst to you) and says you have a gun and there's going to be a robbery, gives them your description, next thing you know a bunch of police show up, guns drawn, etc., etc.

    You could be arrested (though not charged assuming you haven't actually broken any laws), you could get shot simply because the armed police show up in response to the call and accidents can happen. And all because you printed and societal stupidity was against you that day.


    Again, not saying you should be paranoid, just be aware that the sheeple are uninformed or foolish and can make your life complicated.

    Get a good holster, conceal it well, practice carrying in your home to get a feel for how the holster affects your movements, and do your best not to print simply to avoid unnecessary hassle and stupid situations.
     
  17. Ruggles

    Ruggles member

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    Might not be illegal in the truest sense of the word but it might very well cause unwanted problems. And it is very easy to avoid.
     
  18. Beaux Nehr

    Beaux Nehr Member

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    Woops, I guess I should've clarified. Statuatory law means case law.

    Also, I mentioned brandishing, because the case law I may be incorrectly remembering may or may not have involved someone using "printing" to intimidate another.
    Again, I'm probably wrong, and I don't remember where any of this "info" is.


    Something as vague as this is probably best discussed with a lawyer, and preferably not after being hassled by a police officer who decides for himself it is against the law.
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2010
  19. TexasRifleman

    TexasRifleman Moderator Emeritus

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    Please ask your instructor to cite ONE example of this since CHL's were implemented in Texas..... I'd like to see one. Certainly might be, but I've never seen anything remotely like that.

    Monkeys might land UFO's in my back yard too, but I don't spend a lot of time worrying about it.

    What your instructor is doing, quite honestly, is propagating the "sheeple" mentality himself rather than stopping it.

    Most "sheeple", when they see a gun in a holster, think "cop" not "robbery". "Sheeple" only think badguy when the gun is stuck in the pants. That's what TV has done for it.
    Good guys use holsters, bad guys stick it in the pants.

    The story you tell, cops and black helicopters surrounding a CHL who is "printing" is often repeated, but never backed up with any examples.

    What exactly do you find vague about the wording of Texas law?

    Nonsense. Cite it please. If you threaten someone with a gun that's not the same thing as "printing". Totally different concept. This is a discussion about accidentally displaying your firearm when you bend over in Winn Dixie to get Doritos from the bottom shelf, not threatening an ex wife with a gun under a shirt.

    And again, show where it's actually ever happened. And what the heck does "might not be illegal in the truest sense of the word" mean? It's either legal, or it's illegal.

    Accidentally displaying a handgun, carried with a CHL, with no intent to scare anyone, is simply not a crime in Texas. Cite examples where it's caused a problem.

    Seriously, we are not criminals, why do you insist we walk around completely paranoid because we are doing a legal thing?

    I don't understand it.

    Twice I've accidentally displayed a holstered handgun myself. Once in a 7-11 like place, think it was Allsups, can't remember. Cop saw me. Know what he did? He didnt' shoot me, he didn't arrest me, he simply said very calmly "your revolver grip is showing". "Thank you officer, sorry about that". "Might try a longer shirt, have a good one".....

    Yep. It's a frightening world out there..... Maybe we shouldn't carry them at all, just in case.

    Absolutely the best advice in the thread.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2010
  20. Boba Fett

    Boba Fett Member

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    I couldn't say if there have or haven't been any actual occurrences in Texas or the whole of America, but our instructor's husband is a police officer so she'd probably be able to find out.

    Feel free to call her yourself and ask her opinion and any actual occurrences she's aware of: http://www.shootersstation.net/

    Sorry, I don't remember her name, but just ask for the lady who teaches the CHL classes.


    Not really sure how she's propagating the sheeple mentality. Mainly she's just pointing out that it exists and for us to be aware of it. Our instructor was teaching a CHL class (generally consisting of informed and pro-firearms people) not trying to spread the word to the masses about firearms being good and not to freak out if they see someone printing. I'm all for educating people, informing them, spreading the word and so on, but until a high percentage of people out there who are informed about firearms and firearm laws, then warning those of use who will be conceal carrying our firearms about the unintended consequences of printing and the possible unforeseen reactions of sheeple seems to be a good thing.


    Perhaps. TV is certainly a big part of where the misconceptions come from. But I don't think I'd want to count on the random person who may see a CHL holder's firearm in a behind the back / in the pants holster not being alarmed by it. Which is why, as I said, it's a good idea to make sure you can carry your firearm concealed by practicing with your gun and carry method so it doesn't show and cause someone to act on their TV taught misconceptions about firearms. Same goes for printing.

    But as to the whole waistband sans holster concept, the OP's post seems to deal specifically with an unholstered firearm:
    I'm not sure how much you could really print if the firearm were holstered. Most of the pocket holsters I've looked at do a great job of changing the "outline" of the firearm in your pockets to the point that it'd be almost impossible to distinguish it from a wallet or cell phone.

    So would the average sheeple type person that sees the outline of a gun in someone's pocket think cop or bad guy? Who knows. Not a chance I'd want to take.

    The story was simply a hypothetical along the same lines as the example possibilities our instructor talked with us about. I'm not saying that it will happen, or that it happens with any sort of frequency. All I'm saying is that it is better to be cautious and not print simply to remove the possibility of things going bad. All our instructor was saying was to be aware of the social circumstances and how people may react to seeing your firearm printing or tucked in your waistband holster.

    An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Prevent printing with your firearm and avoid the unforeseeable outcomes. Not difficult to do and not a paranoid practice.
     
  21. mrnkc130

    mrnkc130 Member

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    That is what I was taught in my chl class, I havent really looked into it personally though. If I recall correctly my instructor said if you printed and a cop saw you would loose your license. I just took his word for it, makes my most comfortable carry postion (SOB) very uncomfortable for me because I've always constantly worried about the butt of my gun sticking out when i was bending over to pick up my son, or even carrying him...

    I sure wish we had open carry...
     
  22. nalioth

    nalioth Member

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    Ya know, from reading a lot of "CHL instructor" stories over the years, I'm beginning to think that there are some that "make up the laws as they go along" (just like some FFL holders).

    The actual law has been posted here. Now you can breathe easier and enjoy your SOB'd handgun.
    Me, too.
     
  23. duns

    duns Member

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    Under the TX Penal Code, it is an offense to intentionally fail to conceal a handgun:
    What does "conceal" mean?
    What does "intentional" mean:
    So it seems to me that if you have the conscious objective that your handgun can be observed through your clothing then you have committed an offense.

    Violation of 46.035(a) is a Class A misdemeanor punishable by up to a year in jail or a $4000 fine or both.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2010
  24. bdickens

    bdickens Member

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    So many of these questions could be cleared up by doing a little reading.
     
  25. TexasRifleman

    TexasRifleman Moderator Emeritus

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    I've been asking cops and others about this for years and I have yet to find a story of it actually happening. What I do hear is instructors going on and on about it. That's too bad really. It is something to be aware of, whether or not your gun shows, but many of these stories tell of horrible things that just don't seem to have happened.

    And, what happens in the rest of America doesn't matter, different states define this differently. It happens often in some states because of their definitions and laws. Many states have specific brandishing laws etc that make it a serious crime, some places it's even a crime to TELL someone you are carrying concealed.

    But in Texas, where it VERY clearly requires the display of the handgun to be intentional and overt, these kinds of "oops my shirt slipped up" things simply don't result in catastrophes, shootings, arrests, public panic, etc. It just doesn't happen enough, if at all, to be concerned about.

    My problem with all of this is that it makes many people worry so much that they stop carrying. I've talked to people over the years that are so convinced of this that they don't renew their CHL's. That's a real shame and it's why I hate to see this told and retold so much without any evidence of it ever happening.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2010
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