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The 1911 SUCKS and the .45 ACP is USELESS

Discussion in 'Hunting' started by CountryUgly, Jul 27, 2012.

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  1. CountryUgly

    CountryUgly Member

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    Now that I have you attention:neener: ( just wanted to make everyone read my thread) I've recently ditched my full size 1911 in .45 acp for a Glock G20 Gen3. My reason for doing so was that I've grown bored with shooting deer across bean fields so I was looking for something different this upcoming hunting season. I can't shoot a bow for spit even with practice. So I figured handgun hunting (well hunting with an auto loader specifically) was just the next level of progression. Long story short I went with the G20 because I couldn't get it done with the Springfield. I'm sure a 1911 in .45 acp could kill a deer but there are more effective ways of doing it. I'm a total newbie to the 10mm and Glocks in general. I've hunted with handguns in the past but they were either T/C's or Revolvers.

    My question's are as follows; What is the real world effective range for taking med. size game with the G20 (I know my marksmanship skills play the major roll, I'm fairly proficent with a pistol and do plan to practice often with the new setup)? I'm not a reloader so as far as ammo goes what is recommended for target/practice and hunting? (I don't intend for this to be a carry/defensive weapon I have an Officers model 1911 in .45acp for that:neener:) Finally, as far as hunting with a semi auto handgun goes is there anything "special" I need to be aware of or is it "just like hunting with a revolver or T/C"?

    Thanks for any input or advice in advance and sorry if I got your blood boiling before you had a chance to read the entire thread. :evil:Please direct all death threats concerning the title to my EX I'll provide contact info if needed:evil:
     
  2. hardluk1

    hardluk1 member

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    Most of use that handgun hunt use 40 yards as about max but if does depend on your skill level. practice ammo would be like your 45 . Buy whats cheap just don't change a sightes adjustment for practice ammo. Adjust windage if banging hardtargets.

    Not a +P load be heres some good new ammo to try-http://georgia-arms.com/new10mm180grgolddothollowpointp100pk.aspx

    I have killed hogs at the same distance and at the same fps and bullet weight with a 357 mag.
    OR
    a set up,http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=114
    You will need stronger recoil spring.

    NO hard cast for deer hunting.
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2012
  3. CountryUgly

    CountryUgly Member

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    That's kind of what I was thinking (bow ranges) but 100 yards with a good rest, optics and quality gun is not out of the question with the .357, .41 or .44mag. From what I've seen so far there is ammo that approaches or exceeds .357mag performance in the 10mm and was really wondering if 100 yard shots are viable with the 10mm on med. game given I do my part or is it just out of the question. Is steel cased 10mm something I want to shoot out of a G20? I do have a 10mm LW barrel with full support but like I said I'm a newbie to the round and the gun.
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2012
  4. hardluk1

    hardluk1 member

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    Not out of the guesstion but you can not shoot reliably a 3 to 4" group at that 50 yards shooting off a stick rest or leaning up to a tree don't do it. I can set at the bench with a red dot with a 3" coverage and shoot 3" groups at 100 yards useing a 6" black dot as a target. With may old 357 or newer 44 mag. I also know better than to try it in real field conditions but thats me. Hard to get the rest needed in the field for a stlk hunter. A trigger stick will help .

    I would bet you could shoot a bow really well if you have one setup for you and just a bit of help for a bow hunter. Not talking recurve. Got to have a release and good peep and front sights now. Not to heavy a weight .

    I help the daughter of a passed away friend get into bow hunting. Bought her a mission bow and set it up in NC for her back in florida and had her shooting well in 20 minutes and with in 4 weeks she had killed a doe and hog with it. Now she out shoots her hubby. HA All with 48lbs pull.
     
  5. CountryUgly

    CountryUgly Member

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    I tried to shoot a bow. Spent a couple a years practicing with good equipment and had a good teacher but I just plain could not get consistent enough with my shot placement to be confident in hunting with it. In reality pulling one shot out 20 probably ain't bad but with my luck the day I pulled a shot it would be when a wall hanger was in the peep sight. I'm a stickler for perfection and i wouldn't ever take a shot unless I was 100% certain I could make it. I know stuff happens and shots get janked but if I'm confident I can do my part I let it rip if not the animal walks.
     
  6. jmr40

    jmr40 Member

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    A G-20 is one of my favorite handguns. It is very versatile and can be used for personal protection from both 2 and fairly large 4 legged predators. In a pinch it could be used for hunting, but would not have been my 1st choice as a dedicated hunting handgun. For an all round, do everything handgun it excells however.


    With the best loads you have essentially the same power as a 6" 357. I'd feel comfortable doing anything with a G-20 that I'd do with a 357 as far as power is concerned. The limiting factor is how far can you hit with it. A revolver with it's longer sight radius and better triggers will probably prove more accurate at distance. I don't primarily use mine for hunting, but it I ever used it on deer or black bear I'd probably limit my shots to 30-40 yards.
     
  7. Patocazador

    Patocazador Member

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    I hunt with several handguns and many different calibers. I would not consider using the .45 ACP round, especially an off-the-shelf one, as a deer cartridge. 950 fps isn't enough for reliable expansion on a large animal. I don't know much about the 10 mm but see that it isn't that much better than the .45 acp and bullet choices are limited. The only auto-loader that I feel is adequate is a Wildey in .45 Win Mag or the Auto-Mag. My .44 Auto-Mag with handloads of 240 gr. bullets and 296 powder has ballistics similar or better than the .44 magnum and my .357 Auto-Mag with 10" barrel generates velocities and energies much greater than the .357 magnum.
    I understand wanting to hunt with an auto-loader but what's adequate for killing a person is not adequate for deer except for head/neck shots.
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2012
  8. jmr40

    jmr40 Member

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    The better 10mm loads will send a 200 gr hard cast bullet out of a 4.5" barrel at 1300 fps. That is about the same speed as a 357 shooting a 200 gr bullet from a 6" barrel. At 50 yards or less that is plenty of power for a deer or 95% of black bear. It will likely give you complete penetration and leave a hole big enough to do some serious damage.

    There is nothing wrong with the 10mm round. I use and trust it in my glock as a do everything round. But if I were buying a dedicated hunting handgun it would be a revolver to get a longer sight radius and better trigger than is possible on a Glock. Not for more power, unless game larger than deer or black bear are on the tags. Then it is time to leave the handguns at home and take a rifle.
     
  9. 336A

    336A Member

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    I highly doubt that, the proof is in the pudding http://www.gunblast.com/Colt-DeltaElite.htm

    http://www.gunblast.com/Glock20.htm

    The Colt did better than the 4.6" Glock 20 but then again not everyone can afford a Colt Delta Elite either. That and that particular pistol was probably built on the minimum side of specs. Notice that here it took a long Lone Wolf aftermarket barrel to get close to 1300fps http://www.gunblast.com/10mm.htm
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2012
  10. MCgunner

    MCgunner Member

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    Shoulds bought a revolver, but heck, whatever hangs your hooter. :D The 10 is basically a hot .357 magnum with a bigger bullet. I've taken several deer and hogs with the .357 magnum.
     
  11. CountryUgly

    CountryUgly Member

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    I've hunted with the .357 mag. I just decided on the G20 and the 10mm for no other reason than a new challenge. So what I've gathered so far is that it is suitable for deer and hogs out to 50 yards if I do my part.

    So recomendations on ammo for this purpose? Keep in mind I don't reload (yet).
     
  12. jmr40

    jmr40 Member

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    My chronograph says 1315 fps with Double Tap 200 gr. I don't care what someone else gets with their gun.
     
  13. Art Eatman

    Art Eatman Administrator Staff Member

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    Less the ballistics than the skill. Arguing ballistics is a waste of bandwidth.

    My view--and also that of others--is that YOUR effective range is that at which you can very reliably hit the end of a soda pop can.

    You're not "shooting at the brown". You're shooting at a specific place on a deer.
     
  14. jmorris

    jmorris Member

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    Yep, Indian over arrow. You could have saved some money and added a 460 rowland barrel to your springfield (180g over 1500fps or 230 over 1300fps). Nevermind, thats one less gun you would own, where is the fun in that.
     
  15. CountryUgly

    CountryUgly Member

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    I had actually considered this but ammo off the shelf is not available in my area for the .460 Rowland and again I dont reload so that killed that option for me (and I am not patient enough to wait several days for a 20 round delivery from internet buys 500 round bulk purchases sure but I can't afford to buy expensive ammo in bulk though). I sold my fullsize 1911 to fund the G20 project. I didn't gain or lose a gun but I did have funds left over :)
     
  16. CountryUgly

    CountryUgly Member

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    I'll make sure I'm proficent enough with the new gun to make consistent hits inside 3 inches at 50 yards before I'll even consider taking the shot on game. My main question was has anyone here actually killed med. size game with this setup and if so i was looking for load recommendations and tips that may be useful in hunting with the auto loader instead of the traditional revolver.
     
  17. hardluk1

    hardluk1 member

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    countryugly With you deal with the cost for a leupold or burris reflex sight they have bases for glocks that allow there reflex sightes to be used. The leupold turns on with movement too. Almost like cheating useing a dot of some sort. Only person I have ever seen use a semi-auto on deer or hogs is seeing ole nuggent on tv with his glock 20 . HS

    I have hunted with a bow for 22 to 25 years. Never been a great shot. More like the way most of us shoot at 25 yards with just standing there banging away. More like a 8 to 9 ring shooter. I just allways had the ability to settled down when it came time to pull the trigger or release hunting. I think its no different for many hunter. Find your limits and don't try to cross it. I could allways take game with a bow just when shooting in a match or even with some buddies I would not be in the upper 2/3rds most times. I just don't shot matchs at all and mostly just before the season starts. So don't give up if you still have your bow.
     
  18. Art Eatman

    Art Eatman Administrator Staff Member

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    CountryUgly, there are tons of stories of successful deer kills with .38 Special, .357s and .45ACP. Basically, any decent-power cartridge that's at all more potent than those will do just fine. :)

    But, "What is the real world effective range for taking med. size game...?" led to my comment about cans.

    Going back some sixty years, my uncle carried his 1911 in a GI holster on the handlebar of his old Signal Corps Harley when checking on his cows. The deer were used to the bike, and didn't really get all that excited. So, occasional deer meat. :) He was an above-average shooter. I've seen him spin clothespins with a .25ACP Lilliput. (Didn't make my grandmother smile, though. :D)

    My father knew a one-armed guy who used a Smith 6" in .38 Special. Limited out, every season.
     
  19. MCgunner

    MCgunner Member

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    Mmm, a problem with 10mm as the variety isn't there. Sounds like double tap 200 grain would work if it's accurate.

    One thing, I think ya done good to dump the 1911 format for the Glock. I don't care much for Glocks as daily carries, but I cannot fault the accuracy of the G20. Got to shoot a few of 'em and they're much more accurate than most 1911s out there that don't have a lot of money dumped into 'em for accurizing.

    I've been there, done that with the 1911 platform. I prefer revolvers for hunting, or single shot pistols, due to accuracy. But, The two G20s I've fired were tack drivers, easily capable of 3" at 50 yards. That's good 'nuf. :D
     
  20. jmorris

    jmorris Member

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    I understand completely. It costs a lot to shoot any of the "special" rounds if you don't reload, 10mm is on the edge of that envelope though.
     
  21. CountryUgly

    CountryUgly Member

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    I had two things going or me as far as the 10mm goes. 1) My local hardware store has endless amounts of old school full power 10mm ammo. It's just been sitting on the shelf or years while everyone has bought the more traditional rounds the 10mm has been over looked. So I can buy 10mm ammo from the 80's at 80's prices:) It's been indoors and climate controled so I figured this ammo could be a viable option to the more expensive ammo sold online like double tap or buffalo bore. From what I've learned/know it should work but if I'm wrong someone please tell me. 2) I have a buddy that shoots competition with a 10mm and he does reload alot of practice ammo so I could possibly tap into that supply cheap if need be.

    Hardluk1 thanks for the info on the Leupold optics. I had considered maybe going with a red dot of some sort but had about decided that was just going to be to big and bulky for me but the Leupold you mentioned looked good and I now may buy one...Thanks for the excuse to spend more money there buddy :) Also one more thing has become abundently clear after this purchase. I need to learn to reload!:banghead:

    Thanks all of you so far for the info. You all have pretty much confirmed what I had in my head so I'm going to quit talking about it for now and go shoot the dang thing. Enjoy yalls afternoon at the range I know I'm going to.:D
     
  22. Kachok

    Kachok Member

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    10mm will do the trick if you can place it properly, but then again I would step it up to a 44 mag if I wanted to deer hunt, I hate tracking at dusk, kill them where they stand with a nasty 240gr JHP
     
  23. 41 Mag

    41 Mag Member

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    I have hunted with mine numerous time over the years. When I got it to the range initially plenty of folks would come by and see what I was shooting and then walk off uttering snide remarks about the brand. Well it isn't the best there ever was, it's a IAI Javelina with a 7" barrel, and it is very functional and VERY accurate.

    I have on plenty of occasions shot the bull at 50yds into one ragged hole. I have worked loads from mild to wild with it and it has held together and not had one hiccup what so ever. I can also say that hitting 1300fps with factory ammo in shorter barrels, while it can happen, isn't the norm. I have shot just about every available load and found that few get close to what they claim to even with my 7" barrel.

    That said, I have shot hogs with mine but no deer. I have used several type of factory and numerous handloads. Some worked some were dismal failures for putting a stopping hit on them. The overall best factory loads I found were simply Winchester 180 JHP's. Not sure about them now, but years ago they were available in the 50 round packs. I simply did not like the price of them so I purchased the bulk bullets and loaded my own. The 180gr bullets will get you a bit more velocity over the 200gr loads and with a JHP, you need that extra oomph to get expansion.

    The other loads I found that put a hog down right now were the PMC 180 Starline. I dumped several hogs on their noses with those things and on more than one hunt dropped two with one shot. These were shots placed right in line with the front leg which is usually a heart lung combo shot.

    Of all the loads my overall favorite uses the 180gr Gold Dot. This has been my go to load for quite some time. I get a solid 1350fps from it at 10yds over my chrono, and out to 50yds with a rest it will easily do around 2" consistently. I have used in on plenty of hogs out to about 30yds. Much more than that your not going to get much knockdown. While I have shot mine to further ranges, and hit what I was aiming at, I wouldn't recommend stretching it out much over this distance.

    One last recommendation, shy away form the Rem Golden Sabre. While they are extremely accurate they are also very explosive and will not give adequate penetration needed in a hunting bullet. They might do fine on a two legged foe, but will result in a long and probably unsuccessful tracking job on a deer. Like I said I haven't used mine on deer, but the couple of hogs I shot with them were within 20yds and none hit the ground. Two never even slowed down and the other was shot twice just below the ear, while at bay with dogs, then simply toted it off like nothing had happened. It was later dropped by a 30-30 where we found neither of the GS's had even broken the skull.

    Take the above for what it's worth, your mileage may vary.
     
  24. One_Jackal

    One_Jackal member

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    To be honest in the woods optics are something else to break. When hunting you have to travel through snow and ice in rough terrain. Early in the season you still encounter a lot of slippery situations. It's not if you fall it's when you fall optics will get damaged. I would go with a 44mag revolver. When you dump it in the mud or snow you can wash a revolver in any large mud hole and continue the hunt.

    Even if you don't venture into the deep woods tree stands can be trying. Never climb a tree with a holstered pistol or rifle on a sling. If you climb enough trees accidents happen. Tie your gun on a safety rope and pull it up into the tree once you are settled.

    I know a bunch of perfect hunters are going to freight train my response. All I can say is hunting is not a perfect sport nor do we live in a perfect world. The only mistake free hunting I have done is via a video game.
     
  25. jmorris

    jmorris Member

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    Do you know what game he is playing?
     
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